Illumination Theory... (let's call it appreciation thread)

[WheyWaffles]

I don't have a problem with anyone loving this song.  We're likely primarily fans of different generations as A Change of Seasons is my favorite DT song, and possibly my favorite song by anyone.  You're right, the orchestral section was definitely what Jordan Rudess wanted to do.  That's often the problem with DT epics of this century.  I can say that without being critical of Jordan's role and contributions as a whole as ADToE and SFAM are top 5 DT albums in my book.  When he's been given license to fill time, the results haven't sat well with me, and this song had a lot of time to fill.  That said, the Easter egg is my favorite part.

[Lucien]

I don't have a problem with anyone loving this song.  We're likely primarily fans of different generations as A Change of Seasons is my favorite DT song, and possibly my favorite song by anyone.  You're right, the orchestral section was definitely what Jordan Rudess wanted to do.  That's often the problem with DT epics of this century.  I can say that without being critical of Jordan's role and contributions as a whole as ADToE and SFAM are top 5 DT albums in my book.  When he's been given license to fill time, the results haven't sat well with me, and this song had a lot of time to fill.  That said, the Easter egg is my favorite part.

See, this is a perfectly reasonable statement.

[WheyWaffles]

I don't have a problem with anyone loving this song.  We're likely primarily fans of different generations as A Change of Seasons is my favorite DT song, and possibly my favorite song by anyone.  You're right, the orchestral section was definitely what Jordan Rudess wanted to do.  That's often the problem with DT epics of this century.  I can say that without being critical of Jordan's role and contributions as a whole as ADToE and SFAM are top 5 DT albums in my book.  When he's been given license to fill time, the results haven't sat well with me, and this song had a lot of time to fill.  That said, the Easter egg is my favorite part.

See, this is a perfectly reasonable statement.

As were my other posts in this thread.  Surely "worse than the lovechild of Status Seeker and TDEN" isn't below the belt.  I mean, who doesn't love Status Seeker?

[Lucien]

I don't have a problem with anyone loving this song.  We're likely primarily fans of different generations as A Change of Seasons is my favorite DT song, and possibly my favorite song by anyone.  You're right, the orchestral section was definitely what Jordan Rudess wanted to do.  That's often the problem with DT epics of this century.  I can say that without being critical of Jordan's role and contributions as a whole as ADToE and SFAM are top 5 DT albums in my book.  When he's been given license to fill time, the results haven't sat well with me, and this song had a lot of time to fill.  That said, the Easter egg is my favorite part.

See, this is a perfectly reasonable statement.

As were my other posts in this thread.  Surely "worse than the lovechild of Status Seeker and TDEN" isn't below the belt.  I mean, who doesn't love Status Seeker?

[hefdaddy42]

The things you listed as things that casual listeners call negatives are actually just real characteristics of the band.

[?]

Anyway, proceed to go back to appreciating the song.  To be honest I'm surprised no one is with me on this yet as when the album began streaming pre-release quite a few people regarded the song as a disjointed mess.  Perhaps many have warmed up to it--I'm afraid I haven't.

I don't dislike the song, but I find it very disjointed as well. Another problem I have is that IT is such a stereotypical epic that recycles elements of older DT epics - the intro reminds me of Six Degrees Overture and the last part tries to be the new Razor's Edge. In some intie JP said they wrote this song with the "let's make an epic" approach and that may explain the disjointed feel. Or well, I don't know, somehow the song has this forced and unnatural vibe

I've stayed out of this topic because it's an appreciation thread and I haven't wanted to be a party pooper. Seeing all these positive comments actually makes me wish I could love IT and I'm sad it doesn't do anything to me. There are a few good parts and I love the Easter Egg, but the full song fails to impress me. That said, I'd rather listen to it than the lovechild of Status Seeker and TDEN

[The Stray Seed]

You can go on with your lives. This song is still amazing.

Also, just have to quote myself about the "disjointed thing".

Guys... we're talking about Suites. DT Epics are always Suites. It's in the definition itself of a Suite to have several movements, each one different from one other, each one with its own features and pace. Also, do you really want to focus on transitions from one movement to another being too abrupt? Well look, have you ever heard the Nutcracker Suite (speaking of Čajkovskij...)? I think you definitely did. Then, how does the Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy transition into the Russian Dance? Try and give it a spin, and you'll find out what I mean.

A Suite is conceived to be looked at as a bigger picture (pun not sure if not intended), and appreciated as such: an eclectic composition of several musical stanzas each one focused on a different theme/mood/emotion.
Moreover, the Suite was originally meant to accompany a set of dances. The classical suite structure is as follows: Allemande - Courante - Sarabande - Gigue. Even just focusing on this, I will highlight the fact that a Sarabande is a slow and majestic spanish dance in 3/4, while Gigue is a lively, fast pace dance with a meter of 6/8 (the Irish will know what I'm talking about).

So this great fuss, to me, really is much ado about nothing.

Edit:

In some intie JP said they wrote this song with the "let's make an epic" approach and that may explain the disjointed feel. Or well, I don't know, somehow the song has this forced and unnatural vibe

They said that, when they were writing the songs, one of the first happened to have this strong epic vibe, and so they thought that that one had to be a true epic to be fully developed. This is what I personally remember.

[tiagodon]

Haven´t you guys noticed anything sounding off-place in one of the guitar solos?
Listen closely: time 6:40-45.
I think JP might have hit a wrong note.

[wolfking]

Haven´t you guys noticed anything sounding off-place in one of the guitar solos?
Listen closely: time 6:40-45.
I think JP might have hit a wrong note.

Sounds completely fine to me.

[diggerbucket]

I had the album playing for my first listen the other day, whilst doing some some stuff in the kitchen.  It was good, but then at around the 2.25 mark in IT the little double bass drum pedal hit just hit me and I thought..... it's on.  It's the little things.

And yes this post was worth signing up for!

[flintdragon]

At first I felt like it was disjointed with each section awesome by itself.  But the more I've listened to it, the entire song is really starting to feel alive for me and flows well.  sad every time the song comes to an end.

[Lucien]

The illumination theory (also known as the paradox of the black light):

You can't be happy unless you've been sad. (until you struggle through the dark you'll never know that you're alive)

[philippaopao]

The illumination theory (also known as the paradox of the black light):

You can't be happy unless you've been sad. (until you struggle through the dark you'll never know that you're alive)

There is also a scientific explanation for it actually, something to do with the cosmos, haha. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers'_paradox

[Ben_Jamin]

This song has a lot of influences from all their Epics.

[erwinrafael]

I just listened to this and Octavarium back to back three times. I really can not see how somebody can say Octavarium is musically better than this epic. Specially the drumming. Mangini in IT eats alive Portnoy in Octavarium.

One feels a sense of disjointedness in the song if it is not listened in its entirety. However, I made a conscious effort to listen to the song in its entirety always, which is why I definitely felt the flow through the different parts.

[BlobVanDam]

I just listened to this and Octavarium back to back three times. I really can not see how somebody can say Octavarium is musically better than this epic. Specially the drumming. Mangini in IT eats alive Portnoy in Octavarium.

I think Octavarium is easily better. So much more cohesive, with more payoff with the variations of the main themes of the song, and it's the first DT orchestral epic, with the ultimate epic outro.
IT's outro falls completely flat to me, and feels too cliche, even using elements directly out of Octavarium and SDOIT.
And Portnoy's drumming in Octavarium is great. It knows when to just let the rest of the music breathe, and adds subtle touches to spice it up when necessary.

[erwinrafael]

I think Octavarium is easily better. So much more cohesive, with more payoff with the variations of the main themes of the song, and it's the first DT orchestral epic, with the ultimate epic outro.
IT's outro falls completely flat to me, and feels too cliche, even using elements directly out of Octavarium and SDOIT.

Octavarium feels "so much more cohesive" because the message of the song is about a full circle. Illumination Theory is about transitioning from a moment of questioning and confusion to a moment of enlightenment, of illumination. That is why there are sharp breaks in between the parts but still manages to harken back to previous themes.

Octavarium, while great, actually has a problematic outro. It sounds great, it sounds uplifting, but I always wonder what exactly happened in the course of the song which would lead to an uplifting ending? is it supposed to be a realization that one has just to accept that one just comes full circle and one is trapped in an Octavarium?

[BlobVanDam]

I think Octavarium is easily better. So much more cohesive, with more payoff with the variations of the main themes of the song, and it's the first DT orchestral epic, with the ultimate epic outro.
IT's outro falls completely flat to me, and feels too cliche, even using elements directly out of Octavarium and SDOIT.

Octavarium feels "so much more cohesive" because the message of the song is about a full circle. Illumination Theory is about transitioning from a moment of questioning and confusion to a moment of enlightenment, of illumination. That is why there are sharp breaks in between the parts but still manages to harken back to previous themes.

Octavarium, while great, actually has a problematic outro. It sounds great, it sounds uplifting, but I always wonder what exactly happened in the course of the song which would lead to an uplifting ending? is it supposed to be a realization that one has just to accept that one just comes full circle and one is trapped in an Octavarium?

The beauty of Octavarium's outro is that it's not overly uplifting, or depressing. The guitar solo starts in a pretty dark minor sound, then uses a lot of eery chromatics, to put it off sounding either major or minor in tonality, and weaves between sounding dark and light seamlessly, with some parts being dark, and some parts being very bright.

Here's the best bit - analyze Octavarium's main theme reprise that closes off the song. Each bar actually alternates major and minor key tonality. The first bar has the descending run with the major third, then the next bar is the same run but with the minor third instead, then back to the major key variation, then it finishes with the ascending run in minor.
It fits perfectly with the circular theme of the song, with the cycle repeating, having both positive and negative connotations, but really being neither inherently, because it's such a general theme.
Then it repeats the intro drone of the album to reinforce the cycle repeating (and it actually repeats several cycles in the process, but that's for a deeper analysis), and it's only the root note, devoid of tonality.

The more I analyze Octavarium, the more I appreciate it. It's a song that holds up and only gets better with age imo.

[Kotowboy]

I'd love to know how long it took from coming up with the initial ideas for the Octavarium album to being done writing.

• The theme of 8 - 8th album.

• The theme of an octave ( 8 )

• The repeating theme ∞ ( or infinity - an 8 on it's side )

• Having the album based around the key of F with each of the 8 songs in ascending diatonic keys.

• Having non diatonic notes as segues.

• Ending the album as it starts this being the 5th and final album in the meta-album series ( 5 and 8 again ).


i don't imagine this was all worked out in a weekend over coffee in Starbucks.

it's probably the most thought out non-concept album ever

[BlobVanDam]

It was only the 4th album in the "meta-album" progression, but that would have been convenient.
I think I really need to start a thread for my analysis of that song. The deeper I look into it, the more I like it.

[Implode]

IT's outro falls completely flat to me, and feels too cliche, even using elements directly out of Octavarium and SDOIT.

This definitely. After the last instrumental section of IT, i just skip ahead to the next song. I can't stand JLB's voice at the end. :/

[erwinrafael]

IT's outro falls completely flat to me, and feels too cliche, even using elements directly out of Octavarium and SDOIT.

This definitely. After the last instrumental section of IT, i just skip ahead to the next song. I can't stand JLB's voice at the end. :/

What next song?

[Implode]

Oh...I supposed you're right.    Sometimes, I'll just skip ahead to that beautiful Easter egg.

[erwinrafael]

The beauty of Octavarium's outro is that it's not overly uplifting, or depressing. The guitar solo starts in a pretty dark minor sound, then uses a lot of eery chromatics, to put it off sounding either major or minor in tonality, and weaves between sounding dark and light seamlessly, with some parts being dark, and some parts being very bright.

Here's the best bit - analyze Octavarium's main theme reprise that closes off the song. Each bar actually alternates major and minor key tonality. The first bar has the descending run with the major third, then the next bar is the same run but with the minor third instead, then back to the major key variation, then it finishes with the ascending run in minor.
It fits perfectly with the circular theme of the song, with the cycle repeating, having both positive and negative connotations, but really being neither inherently, because it's such a general theme.
Then it repeats the intro drone of the album to reinforce the cycle repeating (and it actually repeats several cycles in the process, but that's for a deeper analysis), and it's only the root note, devoid of tonality.

Oh, I know that. I just find the transition from Intervals to Razor's Edge to be more jarring than any of the transitions being criticized in IT. For a supposedly "cyclical" movement, the transition there is just too sudden. A very dark repetitive "Trapped in an Octavarium" line and then suddenly an uplifting outro. Sure there are those some minors to tone down the uplifting sound, as you say, but still a very jarring transition coming from.

IT is entitled to be overly uplifting in its outro. It talks about Illumination and enlightenment after all.

[Dream Team]

Just jumping in to say that the idea that the drumming in IT is better than OV makes me laugh until my ribs hurt. And I love IT.

[jayvee3]

After hearing IT considerably now, I can honestly say I prefer it to Octavarium. I really like how 8V is put together, and it has some terrific parts, but it just takes far too long to get going IMO. IT is just brilliant all the way through for me, particularly when taken in context of the songs overall message..

[KevShmev]

Just jumping in to say that the idea that the drumming in IT is better than OV makes me laugh until my ribs hurt. And I love IT.

It doesn't make the song better on its own, but Mangini's drumming is beastly in Illumination Theory.  Portnoy has a lot of great drum songs and tons of fun fills to air drum, but Octavarium would not be high on either of those lists for me.  I love Octavarium, but I never listen to it and think, "The drumming in this song is so bad ass." 

[Grizz]

Can't say I particularly enjoy the musical themes like ACOS, nor can I say that it's coherent with brilliant reprisal and variation, like Octavarium. It just feels like it was done with the "We had an extra 20:00 on the disc and some musical ideas, so what the fuck" mentality.

[GasparXR]

Can't say I particularly enjoy the musical themes like ACOS, nor can I say that it's coherent with brilliant reprisal and variation, like Octavarium. It just feels like it was done with the "We had an extra 20:00 on the disc and some musical ideas, so what the fuck" mentality.

Except they actually had closer to 30:00 left on the disc, so it wouldn't have made sense to write a song for the purpose of filling the disc, and not filling it. (In jest of course, your opinion is valid. I just don't agree)

[Tom Bombadil]

Honestly, IT hasn't aged very well for me. I rarely seem to listen to it these days, because if I'm going to listen to a 20 minute song, it might as well be 8VM or TCOT, both of which I think are far better.

[TAC]

I listened to the new album a lot over the last weekend.

Illumination Theory has really grown on me. I love the beginning and 6:00-7:00 might be one of my favorite single minutes of DT music so far.

BUT.. I still cannot get past the string section. I just sucks the life out of the song. Oddly, I love TCOT and could never understand why people didn't like the Swell section. I thought it was perfect. But I do not think fits here.

And it feels like it still lacks the epic finish. I feel like James was not recorded or mixed properly for that section. Lacks the emotion that I know James can convey.

[Enalya]

Driving in car when listening to it for the second time, and I really had to control myself to behave safely. DT, stop making me a danger on the road.

[Podaar]

Driving in car when listening to it for the second time, and I really had to control myself to behave safely. DT, stop making me a danger on the road.

Let me guess the time stamp...3:30 - 6:55? That's some dangerous driving music right there!

[Enalya]

Let me guess the time stamp...3:30 - 6:55? That's some dangerous driving music right there!

Spot on! 

And I love this part: "The bridges we build to connect, the distance that makes us forget (...)"
And the piano part at 4:38, sigh.

[Polarbear]

Honestly, IT hasn't aged very well for me. I rarely seem to listen to it these days, because if I'm going to listen to a 20 minute song, it might as well be 8VM or TCOT, both of which I think are far better.

I have to agree with you. It definitely hasn't aged well with me either. If i decide to listen some DT12- stuff, i probably spin STR or TBP.

If i decide to listen a 20+ min song from DT, i might as well spin ACOS, Octavarium or ITPOE.