What are your thoughts on DT12?

[Tick]

If you play the album once and say "meh" and never listen again, why are you even listening to Progressive Rock/Metal? 

It is entirely possible to form an opinion of a piece of music regardless of the genre from one listen.

Sure you can, it just won't be an accurate one. Especially if its progressive. Too much going on. Your opinion will change from the one you first formed. For better or worse.

So, you are saying the experiences I've had are wrong even though I have conclusive proof that for me that's how it's been?

Yes. You can't have conclusive proof that you know how you would feel after 10 listens if you only listened once. You know what I mean?

[efx]

Perhaps not but but since my track record of 30+ years of actively listening to music has yielded the same result every time basically I'm pretty certain about how anything new I listen to will affect me.

Look I am not saying that my thoughts about a piece of music won't change over time but the basic impression of if I like it or not is definitely apparent from first listen. For me.

[Tick]

Perhaps not but but since my track record of 30+ years of actively listening to music has yielded the same result every time basically I'm pretty certain about how anything new I listen to will affect me.

Look I am not saying that my thoughts about a piece of music won't change over time but the basic impression of if I like it or not is definitely apparent from first listen. For me.

So in 30 years you never heard something the first time you didn't care for that you wound up liking? If so that is truly amazing.

[efx]

Nope, never. I've had stuff that I liked a bit that I grew to love but never something I outright disliked end up being something I liked. And that went for everything rock/metal/pop as well as classical music.

[?]

BTV is played on a 7-string

After relistening to the song I realized it's not played on a 7-string - stupid me! I got it mixed up with TBP and maybe that shows how much I care about this album...

[XB0BX]

Nope, never. I've had stuff that I liked a bit that I grew to love but never something I outright disliked end up being something I liked. And that went for everything rock/metal/pop as well as classical music.

That's really hard to believe.

[jsbru]

Looking Glass has really grown on me.  It's one of my favorite songs.

I'd still say tracks 1-3 and 7-8 are still my favorites.  BP, BTV, and STR are above average, but nothing more by DT standards.

IT is just an epic.  It's fantastic.  It's the best work they've done since Awake...that and AFTR.  And even for their thrashier songs, TEI is superb.

[Rattlehead]

My stance went from "meh" to "decent" now that I own the album and have given it more of a chance... but honestly the only song that really stands out to me at the moment is The Looking Glass. Most DT albums took some time to grow on me so I'm sure that will be the case with this album...

[Kotowboy]

I'm trying to really limit how much I listen to it as after only ten listens or so in total - it's already losing that new album smell & I don't want to get tired of it already.

[Lucien]

Look at this. Stare at it. Feast your eyes.

https://dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=46884

[dongringo]

Look at this. Stare at it. Feast your eyes.

https://dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=46884

Wow, that's some seriously dynamic goodness right there. Do you happen to have the DR of the HDTracks?

[Kotowboy]

Does anyone else always think of  " Wherever I May Roam " when James sings " stripped of all your pride ".

[hefdaddy42]

Nope, never. I've had stuff that I liked a bit that I grew to love but never something I outright disliked end up being something I liked. And that went for everything rock/metal/pop as well as classical music.

Well, your experience is your experience.  But I have never met anyone else like that, and apparently neither has anyone else here, so you'll understand our point of view.

[Kotowboy]

I absolutely *hated* Mansun's second album "SIX" when it came out but it ended up one of my all time favourite albums.

[Tick]

I absolutely *hated* Mansun's second album "SIX" when it came out but it ended up one of my all time favourite albums.

Well, efx would have continued to hate it! Guaranteed.

[DeanTheater]

This is such an amazing release by DT.  IMO, it is their best release since SDOIT.  When I look at the Poll results,l I just cant understand, why 19 people were disappointed by the release.   What are you looking for?  Have you just moved on from DT, because this is a pure DT album through and through.  Just interested to hear.

My favorites are IT, TBP, BTV, STR AND TLG.  The outro to IT is one of the best things they have done on their entire catalog.  Moves me to tears at times.  great stuff DT!

[sylvinception]

Well, like I said in the "Do you think DT's epics are incohesive?" topic, I still have a problem with the final part of IT.

And for the last phrases of STR, I have a problem with the way JLB sing them...Again a question of tone.

But I still think this is a very good album!!

[marlencrabapple]

Just realized I haven't said anything about the album besides how much I hate the mix and master.

I actually LOVE the album. Much better than the last 3 overall.

[jsbru]

I'm getting more comfortable saying it's their best since Awake.  But not by a huge margin.  6DOIT is good too.

It's their happiest-sounding album since SFAM.  Which I think is a good thing.  Lots of major scale usage, and very little growling.

[manticore999]

Nope, never. I've had stuff that I liked a bit that I grew to love but never something I outright disliked end up being something I liked. And that went for everything rock/metal/pop as well as classical music.

Well, your experience is your experience.  But I have never met anyone else like that, and apparently neither has anyone else here, so you'll understand our point of view.

Actually, I'll second that.  If I don't like something on first listen I've never wound up liking it.  Of course, in some cases I never listen to something I don't like more than once, anyway.  I mean, if you hate sushi are you going to keep eating it thinking you'll eventually like it?  Seems weird to me.

[JLa]

I've found that this album is much more fun to listen to if you crank up the volume, let loose and get really involved while listening. Pretend to be the conductor of False Awakening Suite, play air drum/guitar/bass/keys (simultaneously, of course), and sing/lip sync along with James.

I love this album!

[dongringo]

I've found that this album is much more fun to listen to if you crank up the volume, let loose and get really involved while listening. Pretend to be the conductor of False Awakening Suite, play air drum/guitar/bass/keys (simultaneously, of course), and sing/lip sync along with James.

I love this album!

I agree. This album (HDTracks) sounds better when it's louder and it opens up and breathes more. I haven't been able to crack a rock album without thrashing my ears in a long time. Now I don't condone blasting it with headphones, but turning it up just a little higher than you could ever even think about doing with a bricked album will bring much transparency and dynamics.

I adore this album. I like to caress and stroke it while listening to it...ok that was too much info. 

[aXygnus]

Actually, I'll second that.  If I don't like something on first listen I've never wound up liking it.  Of course, in some cases I never listen to something I don't like more than once, anyway.  I mean, if you hate sushi are you going to keep eating it thinking you'll eventually like it?  Seems weird to me.

Well, I didn't like beer at first either... but now I don't have a problem drinking it. I suppose it could be like that?

[Lucien]

I'm getting more comfortable saying it's their best since Awake.  But not by a huge margin.  6DOIT is good too.

It's their happiest-sounding album since SFAM.  Which I think is a good thing.  Lots of major scale usage, and very little no growling.

FTFY

[FourthHorseman]

I am really enjoying the new album, but only STR and TBP and TLG have the potential to make my top 50.

Let me put it this way.. while FII has a lot of so-so DT material with two or three of their best songs ever, DT12 is just consistently very good.

*shrugs*

[marlencrabapple]

Look at this. Stare at it. Feast your eyes.

https://dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=46884

Holy shit the vinyl has a separate master?  Brb amazon.com

[YtseJam]

Dream Theater the song??? 

[ErHaO]

Look at this. Stare at it. Feast your eyes.

https://dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=46884

A, this is very good news and very frustrating at the same moment, haha. Now listening to this loud regular version while a damaged Vinyl version of the album is lying next to me on the table  But I must be strong and not open it, I want a mint version for my collection so I have to send it back.

[Rhayader]

Just finished my first listen. My initial reaction? I'm not sure I get it.

When I listen to a DT album, I expect to go a journey. I was expecting this album to be the definitive DT experience, what with it being self-titled, the band themselves hyping it up so much and all the positive comments I've been observing here.

I don't really feel like this album took me on a journey. It just felt like... a bunch of songs.

Even the "epic" Illumination Theory was disappointing to me. It felt disjointed and underwhelming.

Weirdly, the "Easter Egg" at the end of the album was one of the bits I enjoyed the most. It's almost like I felt that that's more of what the album needed as a whole... more "chill" moments to balance out the intensity.

I don't know... it just seems to me that DT may be trying too hard nowadays. Like ever since MP left, they've had something to prove. This album felt too much like a continuation of what they were trying to do on ADToE.

When I first discovered this band, I immediately fell in love with their sound and every thing they wrote and produced just intrigued and drew me in. On this album and ADToE, it just felt like they were trying to impress me by being overly technical, complex and powerful, to convince me that they've still "got it".

Obviously, I don't know what their true intentions or motivations are when it comes to creating music. But the one thing that I've always loved about this band is their musical integrity, the pure and unrelenting desire to make the music that they want to make, paying no need to popularity or external pressure. I very much hope that deep down, this is still the case - as opposed to making music for the sake of satisfying and maintaining their fan base.

I voted "meh" because that pretty much sums up how I feel after my first listen. There were definitely moments that made me smile and I'm sure like any other album, it will time to take some time to fully digest and I'll probably appreciate it more then.

I was just curious to see if anyone else feels this way.

I do and agree with almost everything you said. The only difference is that I have listened to the album several times and that I enjoyed ADTOE.

[rumborak]

Regarding the JR soloing discussion, to me a huge aspect o of me not particularly enjoying most of his solos is because I can't even tell what he's playing. Reason being, Jordan's solo sounds are so laden with effects, his often-fast paying becomes a mush of sound. It's kinda interesting, one of the things you learn as a guitarist is, solos need sharp, simple sounds so people can hear what you play.

[zepp-head]

So after about 10 listens I've gone through a couple stages of enjoyment with this album.

My first reaction was that it was completely forgettable.  I have never had such a lukewarm first listen to a Dream Theater album before.  I don't know if my tastes changed a lot as I've grown older, but I had never been less excited upon a first listen.

I gave it another run through a few days later and Illumination Theory hit me like a brick wall.  I experienced a high on this song and suddenly a number of other songs started clicking with me.  Surrender to Reason.  The Looking Glass.  I even learned the easter egg song on piano because it was so captivating I couldn't get it out of my head.

However, I can offer a more seasoned personal perspective on the album now, and unfortunately it is closer to my initial reaction.  I understand why many love the album, but I'm afraid it didn't live up to the expectations for me.

The one piece of my opinion that has remained constant throughout is the quality of the production.  I know many have favorable or unfavorable opinions on the mix, but as someone who teaches audio production for a living at a couple colleges, I can't pretend that the mix is strong.  ADTOE suffered from low drum volume in a couple areas but other than that I was very much a fan of what Andy Wallace was able to accomplish.  The mix on the self-titled album is somewhat of a disaster at times in my opinion.  Even on the 5.1 DVD mix I couldn't believe how loud the "quiet" parts of the songs were.  I know Systematic Chaos gets the finger pointed at it for being a product of the loudness war, but sonically I would choose that album over this one any day of the week. 

I realize there has been some dispute over whether the snare was triggered and I am unsure whether that has been resolved.  However, this misses the point because whether it was or was not triggered DOES NOT MATTER.  It SOUNDS triggered and it SOUNDS bad (in my opinion of course), so how they achieved this is irrelevant if the final product reflects a poor result.  I also feel the vocals were surprisingly low and overly filtered in many areas, and despite the "chocolate cake" approach, the mix lacked energy in a number of areas and felt thin overall.  When I popped in the DVD, I turned my subwoofer up to over twice the regular volume (I have it calibrated) before it felt beefy enough.  I'm not saying there weren't brilliant spots on the album, but if one of my graduating students turned in "Along for the Ride", they wouldn't be getting a perfect score.

So onto the songs themselves:

I can't seem to get into the instrumentals at all.  False Awakening is pretty cheesy, video gamey, and sounds like it was made with very low quality synth patches.  Enigma Machine is a mess.  The only things keeping it notched above Raw Dog are the organ sequence and the hilariously impossible Mangini solo.  It's been a long time since we've had an instrumental make its way onto an album, and the earlier attempts were always highlights, but here they unfortunately obvious lowlights.

A couple tracks tend to blend together in my mind.  Not necessarily because they are too similar, but mostly because there isn't enough about them to be considered unique.  The Enemy Inside, Behind the Veil, and the The Bigger Picture aren't poor tracks, but they certainly aren't anything special.  Were it not for the guitar refrain in 6/8 on TBP, I would say that the album would be stronger without these tracks included at all.

Surrender to Reason is the second strongest track on the album, and I've really grown to love it, but what is going on with that intro?  It's so lazy and tacked on that it pulls down the rest of the track with it.

Illumination Theory is an incredible song, no doubt about it.  This track alone is the reason I didn't initially write off the album as a failure.  I do worry that on future listens it will sound incredibly disjointed, but for now it really hits all the right notes in just the right way.  The beginning rocks, the middle is beautiful, and the ending delivers as well.  This is probably one of the best tracks the band has written, and I still hold onto my initial thought that the easter egg is mind blowing.  I have to imagine this song is going to be a chore to listen to live however.  For the orchestra break are they just going to have Jordan play it?  Bring a string section to every show?  Leave the stage and spin a CD?  I can't think of any possible way for this to play out in a concert scenario that isn't completely boring and momentum-draining, but only time will tell.

So my song ranking is:

1. Illumination Theory



2. Surrender to Reason
3. The Looking Glass

4. Along for the Ride




5. The Bigger Picture

6. Behind the Veil








7. False Awakening Suite
8. The Enigma Machine


So, at least at this point in time, I'm fairly displeased with the album.  That could change over time but for now I would have to rank the album within the bottom four certainly.

[7StringedBeast]

^^ Buy the HD tracks version of the album.  It makes it a whole nother monster.  You will actually be able to get into it and remember what you are hearing better.  It's a world better.

[The Curious Orange]

Further thoughts -

False Awakening - It is what it is, but I'm bored with this already.

The Looking Glass - I really don't like this one. It reminds me of You Not Me, it's weak, pointless, and everything a DT song shouldn't be. I just don't get the love for this one. The album is stronger without it, IMO.

The Enigma Machine - It may be just me, but this still sounds like the theme from 80s kids cartoon "Inspector Gadget". This is brilliant, loving it - Mangini is a monster!

The Bigger Picture - Currently my favourite track.

Behind the Veil - Excellent, and should have been the opener.

Surrender to Reason - Not yet clicked with me. The songs that don't click with me tend to be my favourites when they finally do click, of course.

[Octawakeimages]

After giving this album more listens, I have changed my vote from very strong to instant classic.  This is definitely one of my favorite Dream Theater albums.  There are so many great melodies in this album.  I feel that the overall flow of this album is better than ADTOE...and I loved that album as well!   To those that aren't crazy about it,  give it more listens, it will definitely grow on you.  Every Dream Theater album I've had to listen to multiple times in order to grasp every song because each song is so complex, it's really hard to take it in all at once.   I look forward to what Dream Theater will bring to us in the future,  I'm very excited!! 

[Nefarius]

Changed from meh to very strong after a few days with the HDtracks now. I'm obviously very sensitive to mastering decisions and the original master almost ruined the album for me to a point where I didn't even want to listen to it anymore. The instrumentals will need more time and so far I'm not sure what I feel about STR. The only thing that doesn't work for me at all (yet) is IT, but who knows how that will change.

Greetings...
Nef