What are your thoughts on DT12?

[groovieknave]

I agree with this... However, I not only dislike this album, I can't even stand to listen to the songs! Really weird for me, I loved (and I mean nonstop love too) everything up to Systematic Chaos. Could barely listen to BCSL, ADToE, and now this. I find this recent album dry, boring, uneventful, and lacks any DT that I loved in previous albums. It doesn't have that adventurous, or emotional journeys that previous albums have taken me on. It really sounds like just any other prog band out there, and I'm really upset to say that. This album is really weak.

But Illumination Theory is the only exception... That is the only song on the album that I can tolerate. I loved Octivarium, so amazing and epic, and this reminds me of it. Not quite as good, but at least there is one song. :/

I was really looking forward to this after being annoyed with ADToE which I forgot after the first listen. Hasn't even come out of the CD case since then, and now they've really lost me. But at least I have the previous works. I am sure this one will go back in the case and be forgotten with BCSL too. I want to cry and explode!

First Impressions –

It's heavy. In a harsh, brutal kind of way, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. In places it gets quite dark and gothic, and the album feels like a follow-on from BC&SL and it's almost as if ADTOE never happened. Even the more melodic songs are in a full-band, quite heavy arrangement.

The songs (with the exception of Illumination Theory) are relatively conventional, with all of the usual DT trademarks (manic instrumentals, crazy time signature changes) in short supply. Frankly, this could be any other melodic metal band. Most of the instrumentalism is confined to the instrumental Enigma Machine, which occupies the same sort of ground as Stream of Consciousness (and sounds like the theme to 80's kids cartoon Inspector Gadget – or is that just me?). 

It does what a DT album should – it confounds expectations. There's some brilliant tracks on here, The Bigger Picture stands out as an early favourite, as do The Enemy Inside and Along for the Ride. Other tracks haven't clicked yet, but its early days. It's just that on first listen there's nothing here to really get excited about.

And then...

Illumination Theory. Possibly the most insane, ridiculous, preposterous, bombastic and over-the-top thing this most insane, ridiculous, preposterous, bombastic and over-the-top of bands have ever done. Everything is here, and the kitchen sink as well. And just when you think it couldn't get any sillier, in comes the orchestra. This is either the sound of a band losing it, or of a band transcending themselves and reaching a higher level of musical genius. Either way, this is glorious.

Once the album finishes, and you go away with that theme still stuck in you head, do you realise. In order for Illumination Theory to work, they've had to restrain themselves on the other tracks. The reason why they don't let rip earlier is so that it really hits home when they do. It's the album's biggest strength, but also it's biggest weakness.

I have to wonder if your musical tastes have changed so much through the years that DT just isn't your thing anymore. It's ok if that's the case. It happens.

I wish that was the case, but I still have Train of Thought in my CD player, every day drive to and from work (1 hour drives), Endless Sacrifice one of my favorites. Sometimes I put in Octavarium, or Images and play Surrounded over and over. "He throws the shutters out against the wall!" ugh, that whole opening sequence is amazing... so epic! I also play Ministry of Lost Souls constantly. Grrrrrrrr! For a long time DT was the only band I listened to, and I'm not kidding (although I have enjoyed their other works and experiments from each member).

Well, I am only annoyed since they're my favorite. It really crushes me, but I am sure there will be other bands.

[sylvinception]

My real thought is that Mangini looks totally ridiculous with his new haircut.

I vote "very strong".
I did not vote for "instant classic" because I think the finals of STR, IT or TLG are a little...sloppy.

And also because I definitely don't like "Behind the veil".

[emtee]

Everyone is the MVP of this album. First time I feel like I can say that. That said JR gets the trophy for holding back and changing
his approach a little bit. There are many differences from past albums, like JM front and center for instance, and this is JP's best
work...maybe ever, but JR really molded himself into the songs and this is the biggest difference on this album for me. He makes
it very enjoyable from beginning to end.

[ariich]

I wish that was the case, but I still have Train of Thought in my CD player, every day drive to and from work (1 hour drives), Endless Sacrifice one of my favorites. Sometimes I put in Octavarium, or Images and play Surrounded over and over. "He throws the shutters out against the wall!" ugh, that whole opening sequence is amazing... so epic! I also play Ministry of Lost Souls constantly. Grrrrrrrr! For a long time DT was the only band I listened to, and I'm not kidding (although I have enjoyed their other works and experiments from each member).

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that is different. An album that you are very familiar with and have known for years and that you always loved, you will probably still love.

It's happened to me with genres that I was particularly into as a teenager, or in my uni days. I got so into those genres (like pop punk or power metal) that I loved loads of stuff within them. Now that my tastes have broadened, I still really enjoy music from those genres as I do with all other genres, and I still really like those albums I loved back then, but I find new music by those bands much less exciting for the most part. As with all music, there are still new albums in those genres that excite me, but not nearly as much as when I was massively into them.

And that's fine. Our tastes can change but we can still love the albums that we always loved before.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

A couple of other observations (besides how good the album is):

1. I think this may be the best collection of lyrics for DT. All of lyrics are about mature topics (unlike SC for example) and there are no bothersome moments (like Count of Tuscany). TBP and IT have some of the best lyrical moments DT has ever written.

2. This is the best JLB has sounded in decades. The band gave to him some of the strongest melodies they've ever written. His voice fits every one of these songs. Even on the heavier side of the album on Behind the Veil, JLB sounds perfectly suitable. His vocal on the first verse-- an extremely important part of this song-- is exactly what he should have done. Stylistically he sounds on point. The irony in this is that both he and the song sound "heavier" in this moment, than in all those prior DT songs in which the band tried to force it through other effects and/or backup singing-- see TDEN and ANTR. I feel similarly about his vocal entrance in IT. I have been relieved to feel that the heavier moments of DT no longer feel awkward to me and I attribute that to better lyrics, and a smarter use of JLB's abilities and sound.

3. I assume this is pretty clear, but this two album stretch is totally different drumming from anything we've previously experienced in DT. In my opinion, it's also some of the most musical. People tend to focus only on MM's technical ability, which is obviously at a world-class level. But he also possesses outstanding musicianship and knows where and when to use those chops-- An example is two songs that command a totally different feels such as TBP vs. EM. You could also look at the different parts of IT and hear the same thing. The last part of the song was clearly written for the vocalist to shine. In this part, MM (as well as the other instruments) keeps it very straightforward. It makes the vocalist and the song sound better as opposed to taking a million fills before it's the right time. MM just "gets it." I think one of the reasons why DT12 has elevated the band to a new height as songwriters is because of this addition to the rhythm section of the band. DT has simply never before had this level of drumming.

A lot of things I did not like about albums such as SC-- poor musical choices in the vocal department that actually hurt rather than helped the song (TDEN), silly lyrics, etc-- were not an issue on DT12. The band has shown that they have grown significantly as musicians and songwriters since then, and have put out a far more mature and complete album. There is not one song I dislike here. Where other albums had 3 or 4 songs I hated, this song's worst track, AFTR, is still listenable. The other thing I loved was that, as different as this album is, there was never a moment when I forgot what band I was listening to. In the past, the band had these outlier songs that completely deviated from the DT core sound in favor of a different band's core sound. I allude to The Answer Lies Within, I Walk Beside You, Prophets of War, BMUBMD, which I believe were utter failures. On DT12, however, even the hat tips to other bands felt totally comfortable and unforced. For example, even though TLG is undeniably a Rush influenced song, there was always something in there that made it a DT song—whether it be the drumming, the clean guitar part just before the chorus, the JP solo, etc. Furthermore that Rush influence has always been at the core of the band and very well blended into its signature sound. I never felt "this song is not DT." This album does not sound like any of the previous albums to me, but it contains all of the DT signature elements that I've loved from the beginning, perfectly blended into a superior collection of songs.

If I had to say one thing I didn't like, it would be the that some of the songs feel as if they are cut short for the sake of curbing the song length. ATFR, TLG and TBP come to mind. It's pretty minor I suppose, but I did feel that these songs could have used even an extra :15 minutes to breathe.

For the band to put out these past 2 albums 25 years into their careers is incredible. A lot of bands start to lose motivation or stop growing as writers and musicians, or take a totally different turn only to try to return to their sound later and realize the magic is gone. After Black Clouds came out, I thought that DT was probably not going to be a band I listened to much anymore; the past 3 albums had been duds. But this really feels like the new beginning for the band that they've been talking about in their promos. I can't wait for the new tour.

[sylvinception]

Very true about the lyrics.

And glad to see another member who don't like BC&SL!!

[teclas]

A couple of other observations (besides how good the album is):

1. I think this may be the best collection of lyrics for DT. All of lyrics are about mature topics (unlike SC for example) and there are no bothersome moments (like Count of Tuscany). TBP and IT have some of the best lyrical moments DT has ever written.

2. This is the best JLB has sounded in decades. The band gave to him some of the strongest melodies they've ever written. His voice fits every one of these songs. Even on the heavier side of the album on Behind the Veil, JLB sounds perfectly suitable. His vocal on the first verse-- an extremely important part of this song-- is exactly what he should have done. Stylistically he sounds on point. The irony in this is that both he and the song sound "heavier" in this moment, than in all those prior DT songs in which the band tried to force it through other effects and/or backup singing-- see TDEN and ANTR. I feel similarly about his vocal entrance in IT. I have been relieved to feel that the heavier moments of DT no longer feel awkward to me and I attribute that to better lyrics, and a smarter use of JLB's abilities and sound.

3. I assume this is pretty clear, but this two album stretch is totally different drumming from anything we've previously experienced in DT. In my opinion, it's also some of the most musical. People tend to focus only on MM's technical ability, which is obviously at a world-class level. But he also possesses outstanding musicianship and knows where and when to use those chops-- An example is two songs that command a totally different feels such as TBP vs. EM. You could also look at the different parts of IT and hear the same thing. The last part of the song was clearly written for the vocalist to shine. In this part, MM (as well as the other instruments) keeps it very straightforward. It makes the vocalist and the song sound better as opposed to taking a million fills before it's the right time. MM just "gets it." I think one of the reasons why DT12 has elevated the band to a new height as songwriters is because of this addition to the rhythm section of the band. DT has simply never before had this level of drumming.

A lot of things I did not like about albums such as SC-- poor musical choices in the vocal department that actually hurt rather than helped the song (TDEN), silly lyrics, etc-- were not an issue on DT12. The band has shown that they have grown significantly as musicians and songwriters since then, and have put out a far more mature and complete album. There is not one song I dislike here. Where other albums had 3 or 4 songs I hated, this song's worst track, AFTR, is still listenable. The other thing I loved was that, as different as this album is, there was never a moment when I forgot what band I was listening to. In the past, the band had these outlier songs that completely deviated from the DT core sound in favor of a different band's core sound. I allude to The Answer Lies Within, I Walk Beside You, Prophets of War, BMUBMD, which I believe were utter failures. On DT12, however, even the hat tips to other bands felt totally comfortable and unforced. For example, even though TLG is undeniably a Rush influenced song, there was always something in there that made it a DT song—whether it be the drumming, the clean guitar part just before the chorus, the JP solo, etc. Furthermore that Rush influence has always been at the core of the band and very well blended into its signature sound. I never felt "this song is not DT." This album does not sound like any of the previous albums to me, but it contains all of the DT signature elements that I've loved from the beginning, perfectly blended into a superior collection of songs.

If I had to say one thing I didn't like, it would be the that some of the songs feel as if they are cut short for the sake of curbing the song length. ATFR, TLG and TBP come to mind. It's pretty minor I suppose, but I did feel that these songs could have used even an extra :15 minutes to breathe.

For the band to put out these past 2 albums 25 years into their careers is incredible. A lot of bands start to lose motivation or stop growing as writers and musicians, or take a totally different turn only to try to return to their sound later and realize the magic is gone. After Black Clouds came out, I thought that DT was probably not going to be a band I listened to much anymore; the past 3 albums had been duds. But this really feels like the new beginning for the band that they've been talking about in their promos. I can't wait for the new tour.

I pretty much agree with everything you said  ...2 and 3 are very good observations.

[mikeyd23]

Really good post Tis BOOLsheet! Lyrically and musicially, DT is a very strong and mature album.

[sylvinception]

But not well mixed!!

Sorry ??

[mikeyd23]

But not well mixed!!

Sorry ??

Haha well obviously thats a matter of opinion that has been discussed a lot in several other threads. Apparently,  the HD Tracks sound gorgeous, I haven't got them yet, but I'm thinking about it.  Mix-wise though, I actually think its rather good.  Most of the negative feedback has been over the mastering, not the mixing.

Sure its not perfect in the mix department, guitars a little to loud at times, the cymbals could be turned up at certain points, etc... But overall, I think the mix is pretty good. Most of the sonic issues seem to be rooted in the master, and even those, for me personally, haven't detracted from my enjoyment of, what I consider to be, a really strong and mature DT release.

[dparrott]

First full listen, it's decent, better than ADTOE, however it's pretty hard on the ears. I actually had to turn the treble DOWN for it to be listenable.  I never have to do that with other CD's. 

The first few verses of IT should be a single/video.  Seriously.  Just trim some of the opening music out and end it at the break. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

My feeling about the album is this: The biggest criticisms of Dream Theater toward the end of the Portnoy era were (fair or unfair) that the songs had too much "wanking", the lyrics were "silly", and there was too much being "ripped off" from other artists.

In my opinion, DT12 has no wanking and no silly lyrics (although it does wear its influences more proudly than ever). If you still don't like the album, it might just be that, at a high level, you simply don't like Dream Theater's style of music anymore.

[BlobVanDam]

My feeling about the album is this: The biggest criticisms of Dream Theater toward the end of the Portnoy era were (fair or unfair) that the songs had too much "wanking", the lyrics were "silly", and there was too much being "ripped off" from other artists.

In my opinion, DT12 has no wanking and no silly lyrics (although it does wear its influences more proudly than ever). If you still don't like the album, it might just be that, at a high level, you simply don't like Dream Theater's style of music anymore.

But enjoyment of music is not just a checklist of do's and dont's. It is possible to just dislike the music without disliking the genre/style.

[dparrott]

IMO, DT wouldn't be DT without the wankery.  I love that stuff. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

My feeling about the album is this: The biggest criticisms of Dream Theater toward the end of the Portnoy era were (fair or unfair) that the songs had too much "wanking", the lyrics were "silly", and there was too much being "ripped off" from other artists.

In my opinion, DT12 has no wanking and no silly lyrics (although it does wear its influences more proudly than ever). If you still don't like the album, it might just be that, at a high level, you simply don't like Dream Theater's style of music anymore.

But enjoyment of music is not just a checklist of do's and dont's. It is possible to just dislike the music without disliking the genre/style.

Is it though? I don't know... This album is not a radical departure for the band. It's not like a Heritage or a Kid A. It's basically the core Dream Theater sound to a tee, just really concise. If you ("you" being a person in general) think that DT12 is a two star album, their music probably isn't going to get that much better for you from here on out. I could be wrong, but that's the feeling I get.

[Kotowboy]

Please Jesus. Never let Dream Theater " Do a Kid A " .

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Please Jesus. Never let Dream Theater " Do a Kid A " .

Kid A is awesome. 

[Kotowboy]

no

[ariich]

Kid A is pretty good, but not one of my favourites.

But anyway let's not talk about Radiohead in a DT thread!

[?]

What if someone thinks ADTOE was amazing, but finds DT12 average? IMO ADTOE is a brilliant album, because it represents the classic DT sound yet includes interesting elements like the electronic bits in BMUBMD and Outcry and the shaman intro in BITS, and it was the first album since TOT with songs that don't feature the full band. For me DT12 is a standard DT album - not bad, but doesn't feel fresh and exciting either.

[Onno]

What if someone thinks ADTOE was amazing, but finds DT12 average? IMO ADTOE is a brilliant album, because it represents the classic DT sound yet includes interesting elements like the electronic bits in BMUBMD and Outcry and the shaman intro in BITS, and it was the first album since TOT with songs that don't feature the full band. For me DT12 is a standard DT album - not bad, but doesn't feel fresh and exciting either.

I partly agree with you, but while I *like* DT12, I don't like it as much as any other DT album. I really liked ADTOE, but I just can't connect with this album, sadly 

[TimmyHiggy]

literally first post in years (please forgive me!) but here are my thoughts on the new album:
I LOVE The Looking Glass and Behind the Veil. Its nice to hear them do something that harks back to early DT like the intro to TLG, and I love the chorus to BTV. I don't care much for the heavy bits of the closer, but on the whole a strong album. Shame the production is so odd, can't put my finger on what it is I dislike but there's something off about it...

[jdprsaga]

After tons of listens in my car/house/work my favorite song  is:

Surrender to Reason

I just love it!

not so distant seconds are
along for the ride and the bigger picture.

IT is hard to listen in short car rides so I won't consider it too much for easy listening.

[Outcrier]

Please Jesus. Never let Dream Theater " Do a Kid A " .

Krautrock in the next DT album 

[fllnsprrw]

I would like to change my vote from "Very strong" to "Instant Classic". Because I just can't find anything I don't like about this album...Seriously, what else could you ask from DT? (rhetorical)

It will for sure join Images and Words as DT's other perfect album for me. SDOIT and SFAM fell short of that status because in SDOIT the ending of Misunderstood is its only blemish. And in SFAM, Regression, i don't like Labrie's reading of "take a deep breaths" instead of "take a deep breath"

[dparrott]

Please Jesus. Never let Dream Theater " Do a Kid A " .

I'd like DT to add some Kid A elements though.  The break in IT is at least something new for them.

[rumborak]

I have given this album way more spins than I otherwise would have for any other band given my initial reaction to it. My pretty settled judgment at this point is that there's some good stuff on this album, but it's too buried in what I perceive as rehashs of themselves and other bands. So, I will listen to it at work and every 5 minutes I will think "oh, here comes a good part". But it's rather fleeting and then the album is quickly over.

[BlobVanDam]

My feeling about the album is this: The biggest criticisms of Dream Theater toward the end of the Portnoy era were (fair or unfair) that the songs had too much "wanking", the lyrics were "silly", and there was too much being "ripped off" from other artists.

In my opinion, DT12 has no wanking and no silly lyrics (although it does wear its influences more proudly than ever). If you still don't like the album, it might just be that, at a high level, you simply don't like Dream Theater's style of music anymore.

But enjoyment of music is not just a checklist of do's and dont's. It is possible to just dislike the music without disliking the genre/style.

Is it though? I don't know... This album is not a radical departure for the band. It's not like a Heritage or a Kid A. It's basically the core Dream Theater sound to a tee, just really concise. If you ("you" being a person in general) think that DT12 is a two star album, their music probably isn't going to get that much better for you from here on out. I could be wrong, but that's the feeling I get.

I'm sure this is the case for a lot of fans who have grown away from DT's style of music, but still consider themselves fans and want to check out their new music, but my problem with this statement is still that music is not that objective. I still stick by my point.
You can write a song in the right style, and use all of the signatures that people like, but it's still no guarantee that the song is going to sound good to people who like those elements (just look at the other 99% of the prog genre :neverusethis )

I'll take LTL as an example, since it's a song that most people love, and that I don't. I love the rest of the album, and on paper there's absolutely no objective reason that I shouldn't love LTL too. But I feel that most of the vocal melodies and phrasing are quite weak, and hurt the song significantly. But that's just my opinion on the matter, it's not because it deviates from DT's core sound, or because it does anything else objectively that would turn me off the song, in terms of style, or what it does or doesn't include.

It's the same with the sections of DT12 I don't like. On paper, I love it. Objectively it's not about some particular element that puts me off, because that's not what music is about. I listen with my ears, not a checklist! The songwriting of some of the songs/sections just doesn't grab me. That's not something you can really quantify or explain away with such a blanket statement.

[TheSilentHam]

I would like to change my vote from "Very strong" to "Instant Classic". Because I just can't find anything I don't like about this album...Seriously, what else could you ask from DT? (rhetorical)

I'm really here ^ with about 6 listens so far.  DT has parts of everything I've always loved about their music, but still has enough moments that are new and interesting (and epic).  I don't really rank albums or songs, but I'm having trouble putting this one down - just gets better with each listen.

[wolven74]

Just something that made me shake my head.

I was giving a friend a ride home tonight and she told me that TEI reminded her of OTBOA

I can't even.... HOW??  

[?]

2:15 in TEI reminds me of 3:00 in OTBOA and I think the solos are slightly similar. However, OTBOA is a much better song IMO

[BlobVanDam]

Just something that made me shake my head.

I was giving a friend a ride home tonight and she told me that TEI reminded her of OTBOA

I can't even.... HOW??  

Just....... no.
Even if you're not familiar with prog/metal, I don't really see the grounds for comparison.

2:15 in TEI reminds me of 3:00 in OTBOA and I think the solos are slightly similar. However, OTBOA is a much better song IMO

I'll take TEI anyday. OTBOA is so devoid of energy and life. TEI isn't perfect, but it's exactly the kind of straight ahead metal song I like from DT.

[aprilethereal]

And in SFAM, Regression, i don't like Labrie's reading of "take a deep breaths" instead of "take a deep breath"

I'm pretty sure that's not even LaBrie.

I'll take TEI anyday. OTBOA is so devoid of energy and life. TEI isn't perfect, but it's exactly the kind of straight ahead metal song I like from DT.

When TEI was first released, I thought it was great, but that OTBOA was quite a bit better. I still love OTBOA as much as I did back then, but I noticed that TEI is just perfect as an album opener (it's the first "real" song on the album, so it's the "real" opener for me), and fulfills its purpose perfectly. I'd say I like it more than OTBOA now.

[wolfking]

I know this sounds bad, but one of the things that makes DT12 so strong is the lack of Jordan.  He does what he needs to do, no more.

[aprilethereal]

I know this sounds bad, but one of the things that makes DT12 so strong is the lack of Jordan.  He does what he needs to do, no more.

Agreed. I love his work on the new album, and the main reason for that is that he doesn't overdo it.