The Enemy Inside Discussion Thread

[johncal]

Can we just make a separate thread for the audiophiles to bitch?

No, they'll bitch all over the place. Trust me.

[snapple]

No, they'll bitch all over the place. Trust me.

Oh, I know. But make it THE thread to bitch for audiophiles and don't allow it in other threads.

[Dellers]

So, are you buying the album or not?

I pre-ordered it a couple of days ago. There are at least four guys in the band who can't be blamed for the audio quality, and I want to show my support anyway.

About "audiophiles bitching", most of the complaints have not come from audiophiles. I've never been really disappointed with the sound of any record I've ever bought yet, so when I and others discuss it here it's because there's a significant issue. Bitching is a pretty strong word that isn't really suitable in this case, IMO.

[snapple]

About "audiophiles bitching", most of the complaints have not come from audiophiles. I've never been really disappointed with the sound of any record I've ever bought yet, so when I and others discuss it here it's because there's a significant issue.

That is 100% YOUR opinion.

[wolven74]

Basically... triggered drums are electronic. In the case of Images and Words, the engineer replaced the base and snare sounds with electronic samples.

This is basically true, but still misses the mark somewhat. Triggers are small pads with leads that go into a drum machine or processor where the organic drum sound can be enhanced or manipulated. For example, I've played with a trigger on a bass drum that allowed every single stroke to sound like a double. And a snare  in a small room sounded like it was in a stadium.

[theanalogkid7]

How about throwing Red Rain and Beneath the Surface wave forms together.

Beneath the Surface:


Red Rain:


Good point, johncal.  Well done. 

Also, I want to stress again that any bitching on my part about the mastering of the track isn't a reflection of how I feel about the song, the next album or DT in general.  It's more just pent-up frustration with the state of recorded music today.  I'll leave it off this thread from now on. 

[Lucien]

Compression then, according to the Beneath the Surface waveform, is per-song, not per-album, then?

[snapple]

It's cool to say "I don't like this mix/master", but the bitching (not you) can be a tad much. Especially when people say that it ruins the song, DT deserves better, etc. Some people ( and it seems like many!) truly enjoy the song, so the bitching can become irritating.

[theanalogkid7]

Compression then, according to the Beneath the Surface waveform, is per-song, not per-album, then?

Compression can be used per track, per song, and/or per album.  The amount used on each is based solely on how the produce/engineer/artist/record company want the final product to sound.  A bit of compression on a single track within a mix could give it a bit of a boost to sit properly within the mix.  It can be used on the song itself if there's a need for it, but really that's where mastering/per-album compression comes into play.

[johncal]

How about throwing Red Rain and Beneath the Surface wave forms together.

Beneath the Surface:


Red Rain:


Good point, johncal.  Well done. 

Also, I want to stress again that any bitching on my part about the mastering of the track isn't a reflection of how I feel about the song, the next album or DT in general.  It's more just pent-up frustration with the state of recorded music today.  I'll leave it off this thread from now on. 

Thank you very much for doing that. Could you do me one more favor since you seem to have the ability to do this easily? Could you find one of the loudest sections on ADTOE and let us see what the wave form looks like? My guess is it will be very similar to TEI. In fact, if you have an MP3 of one of those sections in ADTOE it would be even more apples to apples.

Also, the BTS track is actually better than the Red Rain track. A little clipping at the top end is OK, because it allows the listener to keep the overall volume of the sound system a little lower preventing unwanted hiss and other electronic noise. I would say for that type of track, that's exactly how you'd want to hit it.

[theanalogkid7]

Thank you very much for doing that. Could you do me one more favor since you seem to have the ability to do this easily? Could you find one of the loudest sections on ADTOE and let us see what the wave form looks like? My guess is it will be very similar to TEI. In fact, if you have an MP3 of one of those sections in ADTOE it would be even more apples to apples.

OK - this made me actually laugh out loud when I threw it into Audition.

Lost Not Forgotten:


HULK SMASH!!

[johncal]

Kind of proves the point.

Another thing that people don't realize is that all these tracks have different amounts of instruments, different sounds, a different vibe, and getting all of that to gel is very difficult to do. The engineer has to make all these different things sound different, yet the same (if you know what I mean). Then on top of all of that, they have to make the volume similar on each song so the listener is not constantly changing the volume control on their system. I did a lot of this work in the past, and it is NOT easy at all.

If it all turns out as well as ADTOE, I'll be very happy. that's a very crankable CD.

[theanalogkid7]

If it all turns out as well as ADTOE, I'll be very happy. that's a very crankable CD.

I just listened to TEI again, and it really sounds good.  I think I'm not used to the heavy, full, chocolate-cake 7-string, but it's growing on me.

[noxon]

hmm, what are those settings? It doesn't look like that at mine, it's a much clearer difference..

Here are the waveforms for the same tracks in the app I use..

[johncal]

I think the thing people have a tendency to do it get so wrapped up in the issues that they forget that TEI "the song" kicks some serious ass. The more you listen to it, the better it gets. It's definitely a grower, but most good music is. There's just so many layers of things to hear on it.

[johncal]

Ball Busting on 2 forums

[snapple]

hmm, what are those settings? It doesn't look like that at mine, it's a much clearer difference..

Here are the waveforms for the same tracks in the app I use..

It was Red Rain and Beneath The Surface.

[noxon]

Yes? And later on, on this very page, it was Lost not forgotten as well. And I threw in Enemy Inside for good measure. Hence why my picture contains all four songs.

[snapple]

Yes? And later on, on this very page, it was Lost not forgotten as well. And I threw in Enemy Inside for good measure. Hence why my picture contains all four songs.

I'm on my phone, hard to read the pic titles.

[Kotowboy]

No matter how hard or soft you hit the drum, it sounds the same all the time.

But the thing is - MM actually has the ability to do that.  It's one of his "tricks" . He is extremely even.

[425]

noxon, I don't know what your settings are and I'm not an expert at using these programs so I don't know exactly what I would change to match yours. But I figured I'd put in a comparison of my own. Most people consider Systematic Chaos to be DT's most compressed album, and Constant Motion is the most all-out song on that album. I figured I would, using the default settings in Audacity, compare Constant Motion with The Enemy Inside with Lost Not Forgotten with Beneath the Surface. I don't have Red Rain, and I'm already buying TEI just so I can do this for you folks. But I think this comparison will be useful to compare TEI to ADTOE to the most compressed album by DT.

EDIT: noxon informed me that I needed to switch from linear to logarithmic mode. You can see my comparison in the correct mode in my next post, which should be around three posts down.

Note: All these files are 256 kbps AAC. The Enemy Inside was bought from iTunes and the other three were ripped as AACs from CDs using iTunes. I have larger versions of the images, but I didn't want to make this thread too hard to load; if people need bigger pictures I can provide links. Again, as I'm not an expert in audio I'll let those who know more interpret what I've provided, I'm just giving you the waveforms. Again, these are all done on Audacity in default settings.

[noxon]

noxon, I don't know what your settings are and I'm not an expert at using these programs so I don't know exactly what I would change to match yours.

You need to switch from linear to logarithmic dB mode.

https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Audacity_Waveform

[AngelBack]

OK, on a less technical note - just cranked TEI with my good headphones and WOW is it growing and the mixing is vastly superior (IMO) to ADTOE.  The drums are placed about at the right level and MM is doing some sick rythyms.  The toms sound good and have....tone! The one thing that I still have a problem with on the drum mix is that the cymbals seem to have too much high end, I like to hear mids in the cymbals, makes them a little more fulfilling and keeps them from creating ear fatigue.  Vocals spot on and I think the type song dictated the heavy guitar mix.  JR is a little less prominent than on most DT songs but again the song dictates that.  I can see a radio edit without the keyboard section and DT would have a song that could appeal to a more mainstream audience.  i listen to a lot of metal (death metal in particular) and most of the metal fans I know will write a song off that has keys.  Their loss but it is what it...

Song  is still growing on me.  Best word I can use to describe it at this point is FUN !

[425]

You need to switch from linear to logarithmic dB mode.

https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Audacity_Waveform

Ah, okay, thanks! Here's the same comparison in Waveform dB (logarithmic dB) mode:

Beneath the Surface:


Lost Not Forgotten:


The Enemy Inside:


Constant Motion:

[Lucidity]

I'm sorry, but I find all this discussion over audio quality and whatnot to be rather unbearable and ungrateful. I've said it before, and I'll say it again-- every DT song and every DT album sounds exactly as the band intends it to sound.

[johncal]

I'm sorry, but I find all this discussion over audio quality and whatnot to be rather unbearable and ungrateful. I've said it before, and I'll say it again-- every DT song and every DT album sounds exactly as the band intends it to sound.

Some of it IS truly ungrateful, maybe just a little bit unbearable here and there, but there is also some good teaching knowledge going on about sound design that some guys here maybe didn't know. So I'll put up with a little bit of BS if it helps somebody learn something. Knowledge is a good thing to have. Gotta take the bad with the good!

[425]

I'm getting tired of it too, I was hoping to settle it with this last waveform comparison. I'm not an expert, but I can't tell the difference between The Enemy Inside and the loud parts of Lost Not Forgotten and Constant Motion (the quiet parts of the CM would be, through one channel the unaccompanied guitar parts and then the "obsessive yearning" section, I think). So I think it can be settled thusly: If you think SC and ADTOE are too loud, then you'll think the new album is too loud. If you don't mind those albums, you won't mind the new one.

I think there are a few exceptions to "exactly as the band intends it to sound." When Dream and Day Unite was produced with a low budget and Images and Words had the triggered snare. But otherwise, I would agree.

I hope once the entire album comes out there will discussion over more of the music and less of the audio quality. Audio quality is a legitimate discussion, but it seems to be overwhelming the primary topic regarding The Enemy Inside.

[The Letter M]

Am I the only one with a softer sounding ADTOE? Every time I play it after any other DT album, I have to turn my volume up a few notches just to hear the songs. Not that this is a BAD thing, the music has room to breathe and there's a lot of space for it, it's not GIVEN to me at full volume. I like being able to turn it up rather than having to turn it down because it was mastered too loud.

-Marc.

[gm5k]

The mix and/or mastering does bother me, can't le.  However, one thing I can hear that I haven't(personally) heard from the band in a long time is great passion.  I hear a different energy on this new track that I don't feel I've heard since Octavarium.  Hard to explain, but I'm very much looking forward to Dream Theater.

[jayvee3]

I'm sorry, but I find all this discussion over audio quality and whatnot to be rather unbearable

This. So this.

[Bolsters]

I'm sorry, but I find all this discussion over audio quality and whatnot to be rather unbearable

This. So this.

Then don't read the fucking thread? At least those people are discussing the song, you know, the thing this thread is about. What are all these stand-alone, un-discussion-encouraging bitching posts adding to the thread, besides a thick layer of pretentiousness and self-righteousness? Not a damn thing.

I much prefer coming to the thread and seeing discussion about the song, positive or negative, than I do random posts by people saying they don't like the discussion or saying it shouldn't be discussed or posts questioning the motives of people actually taking part in the dicussion.

[robwebster]

It's cool to say "I don't like this mix/master", but the bitching (not you) can be a tad much. Especially when people say that it ruins the song, DT deserves better, etc. Some people ( and it seems like many!) truly enjoy the song, so the bitching can become irritating.

Equally, quite a lot of people who've never been distracted by a mix in their lives are chiming in and going, "You know, I don't think this sounds too great," so it's just as galling being dismissed with "Oh, you people whine about anything," when that's kind of a misrepresentation.

I think compression is brilliant, I think strong compression is necessary if you're creating a consumer product because 99% of the time it's going to be the most appropriate way to listen to an album, and I've never listened to a DT album and spared a second thought for the mix. I'm fine with people enjoying the mix and master - in fact, I wholeheartedly approve! - but summarising my qualms as "MOAN MOAN AUDIOPHILE MOAN" is not a great way to make me shut up about how I can't hear the vocals! It just makes me want to justify it more, because clearly, something's been lost in translation, here.

Brilliant, brilliant song, hate what they've done with it.

I'm getting tired of it too, I was hoping to settle it with this last waveform comparison. I'm not an expert, but I can't tell the difference between The Enemy Inside and the loud parts of Lost Not Forgotten and Constant Motion (the quiet parts of the CM would be, through one channel the unaccompanied guitar parts and then the "obsessive yearning" section, I think). So I think it can be settled thusly: If you think SC and ADTOE are too loud, then you'll think the new album is too loud. If you don't mind those albums, you won't mind the new one.

Regrettably, it cannot!

Here's my issue: Don't care about loudness, I have a volume knob. What I do care about is the mix of the vocals (buried!) and the compression on the drums. The drums sound really, really weird. They don't sound like a real drum kit. Don't sound like they're synthetic, either, just heavily processed, completely flattened. The cymbals sound the weirdest, but it's like everything goes a little quiet when there's a drum hit. I don't know if that's because they chose to flatten them for the mix, or because everything got squashed down in the master. But the waveform... shrug! It's not the size, it's what you do with it. And I'm in a position, for the first time ever with Dream Theater, where I love the song to bits but I can't stand the way it sounds. Only other song like this I can think of is "One Little Victory."

And I'm tempted to buy the 5.1 edition, now, just so I can extract some isolated tracks and work out exactly what they've done with it. I'm baffled.

I much prefer coming to the thread and seeing discussion about the song, positive or negative, than I do random posts by people saying they don't like the discussion or saying it shouldn't be discussed or posts questioning the motives of people actually taking part in the dicussion.

"Metadiscussion." Discussing the discussion. I don't think I'd have been quite so colourful in my ire, but it's starting to bother me, too. I think it is a problem with centralising discussion to a single thread, though.

[jayvee3]

I'm sorry, but I find all this discussion over audio quality and whatnot to be rather unbearable

This. So this.

Then don't read the fucking thread? At least those people are discussing the song, you know, the thing this thread is about. What are all these stand-alone, un-discussion-encouraging bitching posts adding to the thread, besides a thick layer of pretentiousness and self-righteousness? Not a damn thing.

Settle down Prince Valiant. Some discussion about the audio quality is of course fine. but to be able to read the thread about anything other than the audio quality and not the actual song quality is getting increasingly tougher by the post. We get it, some aren't happy with the audio quality, some don't care. How is this adding to the discussion of the thread after 60 pages of the same thing?..

[Bolsters]

Settle down Prince Valiant. Some discussion about the audio quality is of course fine. but to be able to read the thread about anything other than the audio quality and not the actual song quality is getting increasingly tougher by the post. We get it, some aren't happy with the audio quality, some don't care. How is this adding to the discussion of the thread after 60 pages of the same thing?..

And how does making posts complaining about that, or complaining about the people taking part in that discussion, instead of you know...trying to discuss the song itself as you mention, help your cause?

Additionally, you say "some discussion is of course fine" but who are you to dictate how much or how little discussion about a particular facet of the song is allowed or is reasonable? If discussion of the production is dominating the thread, it should tell you that there are a lot of people who actually want to discuss it. None of them should have to reduce or stop that discussion just because you or any number of other people don't agree with them and would rather discuss something else. Though as mentioned, you aren't actually procluded from discussing anything else anyway. At least if you were trying to discuss the song, it would be more constructive than posting merely to bitch about what other people want to discuss.

[jayvee3]

Settle down Prince Valiant. Some discussion about the audio quality is of course fine. but to be able to read the thread about anything other than the audio quality and not the actual song quality is getting increasingly tougher by the post. We get it, some aren't happy with the audio quality, some don't care. How is this adding to the discussion of the thread after 60 pages of the same thing?..

And how does making posts complaining about that, or complaining about the people taking part in that discussion, instead of you know...trying to discuss the song itself as you mention, help your cause?

Additionally, you say "some discussion is of course fine" but who are you to dictate how much or how little discussion about a particular facet of the song is allowed or is reasonable? If discussion of the production is dominating the thread, it should tell you that there are a lot of people who actually want to discuss it. None of them should have to reduce or stop that discussion just because you or any number of other people don't agree with them and would rather discuss something else. Though as mentioned, you aren't actually procluded from discussing anything else anyway. At least if you were trying to discuss the song, it would be more constructive than posting merely to bitch about what other people want to discuss.

Thankyou for all the joy you bring to this thread tiger