The Enemy Inside Discussion Thread

[johncal]

I think the fair thing is to compare TEI to other metal songs as far as the wave form and breathing space go.

How about throwing Red Rain and Beneath the Surface wave forms together. Those songs would be more comparable. BTS has all kinds of breathing room in it. BTS sounds great, yet it's on the same album that everyone says has the crap compressed out of it.  I'll bet you'd be hard pressed to find any other heavy metal songs with that much instrumentation going on that sound much better than TEI. But I easily could be wrong on that.

[dparrott]

What this says to me is: it can sound good depending on the systems and settings that are being used.

That's like Lars saying DM "sounds just fine in my car..."

[Dellers]

What this says to me is: it can sound good depending on the systems and settings that are being used.

At least the song sounds horrible (soundwise) to me on every piece of equipment I have. While I know audio engineering very well I'm extremely far from being an audiophile. I've listened to it on studio monitors, studio headphones and a Logitech 5.1 surround system. No matter which of those three I use the song is extremely tiring. I can't stream it to the car, so I can't try it there, but I don't suppose it would sound any better there either. I don't have a single piece of music that doesn't sound good on any equipment I have, this is the only song that actually doesn't sound ok no matter what I do. I don't own any Metallica songs, but this is the worst I've heard apart from streaming Death Magnetic for the fun of hearing how bad it sounds.

[ResultsMayVary]

The quality of any stream is generally notoriously shitty. Basing your opinion on a song based on a stream is ridiculous.

[Dark Castle]

The quality of any stream is generally notoriously shitty. Basing your opinion on a song based on a stream is ridiculous.

This, Especially with Soundcloud.

[TheGreatPretender]

So, I've had two occasions now, where I wake up, and the keyboard solo from the song is stuck in my head. 

[noxon]

The quality of any stream is generally notoriously shitty. Basing your opinion on a song based on a stream is ridiculous.

A lot of us have copies that stems from other sources than the stream though. There are people who have amazon mp3s, people who have itunes mp4s, people who have 256kbps mp3s from the preorder and people who have 320kbps mp3s from the preorder. Granted, all of that is obviously not lossless - but cd audio isn't magically going to fix whatever is wrong with the 320kbps mp3.

[DreamTension]

What i don´t understand is this little snippet from a review of the listening-party:
"The mixing and mastering are worth nothing, as well, for their superiority and for not succumbing much to the modish "loudness war""

From: https://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2013/07/dream_theater_listening_party.php?page=2

Did this woman listen to the same CD as noxon got? It sounds strange.. 

Maybe DT used the high quality FLAC files from the boxset at the listening party?  I imagine those will be equivalent to the HD Tracks release.

[TheGreatPretender]

And also to albums like Death Magnetic, The Blackening and 13

Which 13? Black Sabbath? I think that album sounds just fine.

[Dellers]

The quality of any stream is generally notoriously shitty. Basing your opinion on a song based on a stream is ridiculous.

I'm basing my opinion on a 256k stream from Wimp, which is far from shitty (about the same as iTunes). It's more than enough to judge the sound quality of the song. While CD quality is better, it's something that 99/100 people can't point out at all.

[TheGreatPretender]

What i don´t understand is this little snippet from a review of the listening-party:
"The mixing and mastering are worth nothing, as well, for their superiority and for not succumbing much to the modish "loudness war""

From: https://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2013/07/dream_theater_listening_party.php?page=2

Did this woman listen to the same CD as noxon got? It sounds strange.. 

Maybe DT used the high quality FLAC files from the boxset at the listening party?  I imagine those will be equivalent to the HD Tracks release.

Do you really think they'd be that deceptive, though? I mean, they knew that their listeners would be reviewing the album, so for them to say, "Let's put on the HD version of the album so that it sounds better and the reviewers can enjoy it more and give it a good rating," is not only deceptive. But if that's how they acknowledged it, if they said to themselves, "This will sound better and give us a better rating," then why the hell wouldn't they just release the uncompressed version of the album to the public anyway?

But noting all this, what if... What if Richard played every song to its strengths. TEI is a metal song, heck, parts of it sound like Megadeth, so what if he said, this song needs to be louder and more compressed to accentuate the balls to the wall metal of it," whereas with other songs on the album, songs more rock and prog oriented, he may have said, "Let's not compress these songs this much, because they're more focus on melody and dynamics."

I would love it if the entire album had variety in how it's delivered based on what type of song it is.

[Kotowboy]

And also to albums like Death Magnetic, The Blackening and 13

Which 13? Black Sabbath? I think that album sounds just fine.

it's still been " Rick Ruin-ed " though.

[GasparXR]

I don't think I threw my three cents in about the loudwar war debate in this thread, so I'll do it now before we get derailed either back on topic or to  another off topic.

I do notice the compression on the song and seems like that's what makes the snare sound weird, possibly because it was loud enough already when the mix was complete, but that's based on very little evidence. I'm somewhat of an audiophile myself (I mainly just avoid MP3s and the like and go for ALAC (I would use FLAC but I enjoy having my music library in iTunes, and iTunes doesn't recognize FLAC)), but the compression doesn't really take away from my enjoyment of the song at all! Everything still sounds crisp and clear, except maybe the vocals are a BIT low, and the snare sound weird, but it would have to have VERY bad mastering to detract. That being said, it MIGHT sound better with slightly less compression, but being the type of song it is; aggressive and heavy the whole way through; it doesn't affect the dynamics of the song all that much.

[Tom Bombadil]

What i don´t understand is this little snippet from a review of the listening-party:
"The mixing and mastering are worth nothing, as well, for their superiority and for not succumbing much to the modish "loudness war""

From: https://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2013/07/dream_theater_listening_party.php?page=2

Did this woman listen to the same CD as noxon got? It sounds strange.. 

Maybe DT used the high quality FLAC files from the boxset at the listening party?  I imagine those will be equivalent to the HD Tracks release.

Do you really think they'd be that deceptive, though? I mean, they knew that their listeners would be reviewing the album, so for them to say, "Let's put on the HD version of the album so that it sounds better and the reviewers can enjoy it more and give it a good rating," is not only deceptive. But if that's how they acknowledged it, if they said to themselves, "This will sound better and give us a better rating," then why the hell wouldn't they just release the uncompressed version of the album to the public anyway?

But noting all this, what if... What if Richard played every song to its strengths. TEI is a metal song, heck, parts of it sound like Megadeth, so what if he said, this song needs to be louder and more compressed to accentuate the balls to the wall metal of it," whereas with other songs on the album, songs more rock and prog oriented, he may have said, "Let's not compress these songs this much, because they're more focus on melody and dynamics."

I would love it if the entire album had variety in how it's delivered based on what type of song it is.

That seems like a lot to hope for, but it would be really awesome. I really don't mind the compression on TEI but I'm worried that they'll compress the softer pieces that are meant to have more dynamics.

[Nefarius]

Mastering different tracks of an album in radically different ways wouldn't make any sense and would destroy a cohesive sound, especially for bands like DT that are very album driven. So I'd say it's a given most of the album will be equally squashed.

Greetings...
Nef

[TheGreatPretender]

That seems like a lot to hope for, but it would be really awesome. I really don't mind the compression on TEI but I'm worried that they'll compress the softer pieces that are meant to have more dynamics.

Well, I really don't see why they'd play the HD version of the album at the party, and not just release that HD version as the actual album. So I don't think that's the case. So either the album has some good dynamics all throughout, or the reviewer is just used to music that's way MORE compressed, and this album seems really dynamic in comparison. Which can be understandable, like I said, I never listened to any DT record and felt that 'wall of sound' effect that's present on so many other albums.

[theanalogkid7]

My complaints about the mastering aside, the tune still kicks major butt.  I was listening to it today on the way home from church, and it just rocks so hard that I can't help but totally dig it.  I'm really excited for this album.

[Tomislav95]

Can someone, please, explain to me what triggered drums are?

[JayOctavarium]

Basically... triggered drums are electronic. In the case of Images and Words, the engineer replaced the base and snare sounds with electronic samples.

[Tomislav95]

Basically... triggered drums are electronic. In the case of Images and Words, the engineer replaced the base and snare sounds with electronic samples.

Whoa.
Is snare triggered on TEI?

[Zydar]

No matter how hard or soft you hit the drum, it sounds the same all the time.

[noxon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4NQO5gofrg

[Nefarius]

The TEI snare isn't triggered, it's only detuned, that's why it sounds a little unusual at first. It's done on purpose and I think it sounds quite interesting.

Greetings...
Nef

[TL]

The TEI snare isn't triggered, it's only detuned, that's why it sounds strange at first. It's done on purpose and I think it sounds quite interesting.

Greetings...
Nef

This. There was an interview somewhere where Mangini mentioned using a flatter snare sound to give it a larger presence on the track.

[noxon]

the compression on the drum track makes it so that all the snare hits are even, which may cause one to believe that they're triggered.

[Tomislav95]

Snare sound is just somehow weak to me. Probably it's just the tooone.

[King Postwhore]

No matter how hard or soft you hit the drum, it sounds the same all the time.

Just like my bitches.

[Cable]

The quality of any stream is generally notoriously shitty. Basing your opinion on a song based on a stream is ridiculous.

I'm basing my opinion on a 256k stream from Wimp, which is far from shitty (about the same as iTunes). It's more than enough to judge the sound quality of the song. While CD quality is better, it's something that 99/100 people can't point out at all.

Thanks.

I do not understand how hearing a 128bitrate or less stream version will taint my view of a song, and make my opinion invalid? I heard the USAToday version, and then bought the iTunes version. I could tell I did not like the mix (low vocals, low bass) via the USAToday link, and my opinion of the some was cemented before the iTunes version.

[Dark Castle]

Not to nag, but the Itunes version was a much clearer mix, and even with the USA Today stream, I could hear everybody just fine, including Myung. James sounds just fine in the mix if you ask me.

[Dellers]

Basically... triggered drums are electronic. In the case of Images and Words, the engineer replaced the base and snare sounds with electronic samples.

Not necessarily. While it's actually done on a computer, it's very possible to use samples from acoustic drums. I've done that numerous times, and I don't normally use any actual electronic sounds to beef my snares. Also, it's usual to mix the triggered sounds with the original snare, or even better mix a bunch of snares together to get a really fat and punchy sound. It all depends on personal preferences.

No matter how hard or soft you hit the drum, it sounds the same all the time.

Not necessarily that either. While it's pretty common to do that to make it sound even (an uneven snare can be pretty annoying in a lot of music) the typical trigger plugins are absolutely based on dynamics. Typically there are a whole bunch of samples of the same snare played differently, and one can choose whether or not the plugin will follow the same dynamics as the original source.

[snapple]

I think the fair thing is to compare TEI to other metal songs as far as the wave form and breathing space go.

How about throwing Red Rain and Beneath the Surface wave forms together. Those songs would be more comparable. BTS has all kinds of breathing room in it. BTS sounds great, yet it's on the same album that everyone says has the crap compressed out of it.  I'll bet you'd be hard pressed to find any other heavy metal songs with that much instrumentation going on that sound much better than TEI. But I easily could be wrong on that.

Excellent point.

[ariich]

I think the fair thing is to compare TEI to other metal songs as far as the wave form and breathing space go.

How about throwing Red Rain and Beneath the Surface wave forms together. Those songs would be more comparable. BTS has all kinds of breathing room in it. BTS sounds great, yet it's on the same album that everyone says has the crap compressed out of it.  I'll bet you'd be hard pressed to find any other heavy metal songs with that much instrumentation going on that sound much better than TEI. But I easily could be wrong on that.

Very well said.

What this says to me is: it can sound good depending on the systems and settings that are being used.

At least the song sounds horrible (soundwise) to me on every piece of equipment I have. While I know audio engineering very well I'm extremely far from being an audiophile. I've listened to it on studio monitors, studio headphones and a Logitech 5.1 surround system. No matter which of those three I use the song is extremely tiring. I can't stream it to the car, so I can't try it there, but I don't suppose it would sound any better there either. I don't have a single piece of music that doesn't sound good on any equipment I have, this is the only song that actually doesn't sound ok no matter what I do. I don't own any Metallica songs, but this is the worst I've heard apart from streaming Death Magnetic for the fun of hearing how bad it sounds.

It sounds like your problem might rather be with the song, rather than with the production.

[Dellers]

It sounds like your problem might rather be with the song, rather than with the production.

No, I actually think the song is ok. Not a favorite of mine, but then again I'm not able to get into it because of the way it sounds. If it sounded like any of the latest records I've been buying I'd probably dig it, but the master combined a couple of mix and production issues are really hard to get past.

[snapple]

Can we just make a separate thread for the audiophiles to bitch?

[johncal]

It sounds like your problem might rather be with the song, rather than with the production.

No, I actually think the song is ok. Not a favorite of mine, but then again I'm not able to get into it because of the way it sounds. If it sounded like any of the latest records I've been buying I'd probably dig it, but the master combined a couple of mix and production issues are really hard to get past.

So, are you buying the album or not?