Dream Theater self titled album discussion - [SPOILER FREE DISCUSSION ONLY]

[erciccio]

We need a review or the single, the debate is drifting into prog-nonsense...

[Podaar]

What a funny conversation. Prog is simply short for Progressive.

Not if you make the assertion enough times REALLY LOUD! That changes everything. It's just like trying to get someone who doesn't speak your language to understand.

[dongringo]

When I typed prog into wikipedia I got this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prog
"Prog" redirects here. For other uses, see Prog (disambiguation)."

And from there this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prog_%28disambiguation%29
"any kind of progressive music (disambiguation)"

We can see that prog is one and the same as progressive.

[Perpetual Change]

No thoughts on this?

They're just a metal band that writes long songs. And as I said in another thread, unless I'm missing someone crucial, prog is not progressive.

IMO, they are the same thing. The distinction is just a one made up by people who take music really seriously and want to distinguish bands who make music in the styles of the 70's prog rockers (prog) with bands who genuinely try and push the limits of music in their own way (progressive).

I have no problem calling "prog" bands "progressive" bands, and "proggressive" bands "prog". From my perspective, bands who follow the tradition of 70s  rock can always be referred to as progressive bands OR prog for shorthand, whereas the more modern genre-defyers are generally tacked with the label "experimental" instead.

No matter how you slice it, DT are both progressive AND experimental, though they were more balanced in the early days, whereas now I think they pretty much stick to their own confines (which is fine). I don't mind DT sticking to prog, but I would like a little bit more of that early genre experimenation/fusion return, like the carribean sounding music in Learning to Live or the Jazz across SFAM.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

I've seen that definition here before - who came up with "prog" and "progressive" being two different labels? Where and when was it established? By who?

How can a band who has a reggae section in Learning To Live (live version), a horror movie section in The Dark Eternal Night or a ragtime piano section in Dance of Eternity, amidst all the metal riffs, not be considered progressive? The band is a lot more than heavy riffs and different time signatures.

This.

Yea progressive is more than just time signatures, that's why it's such a broad genre today.

[Super Dude]

No thoughts on this?

They're just a metal band that writes long songs. And as I said in another thread, unless I'm missing someone crucial, prog is not progressive.

IMO, they are the same thing. The distinction is just a one made up by people who take music really seriously and want to distinguish bands who make music in the styles of the 70's prog rockers (prog) with bands who genuinely try and push the limits of music in their own way (progressive).

I have no problem calling "prog" bands "progressive" bands, and "proggressive" bands "prog". From my perspective, bands who follow the tradition of 70s  rock can always be referred to as progressive bands OR prog for shorthand, whereas the more modern genre-defyers are generally tacked with the label "experimental" instead.

No matter how you slice it, DT are both progressive AND experimental, though they were more balanced in the early days, whereas now I think they pretty much stick to their own confines (which is fine). I don't mind DT sticking to prog, but I would like a little bit more of that early genre experimenation/fusion return, like the carribean sounding music in Learning to Live or the Jazz across SFAM.

Apparently not.

[The Stray Seed]

No thoughts on this?

They're just a metal band that writes long songs. And as I said in another thread, unless I'm missing someone crucial, prog is not progressive.

IMO, they are the same thing. The distinction is just a one made up by people who take music really seriously and want to distinguish bands who make music in the styles of the 70's prog rockers (prog) with bands who genuinely try and push the limits of music in their own way (progressive).

I have no problem calling "prog" bands "progressive" bands, and "proggressive" bands "prog". From my perspective, bands who follow the tradition of 70s  rock can always be referred to as progressive bands OR prog for shorthand, whereas the more modern genre-defyers are generally tacked with the label "experimental" instead.

No matter how you slice it, DT are both progressive AND experimental, though they were more balanced in the early days, whereas now I think they pretty much stick to their own confines (which is fine). I don't mind DT sticking to prog, but I would like a little bit more of that early genre experimenation/fusion return, like the carribean sounding music in Learning to Live or the Jazz across SFAM.

Actually I agree 100% with what you said there. To me, it's just some snobbish purpose that leads people to distance themselves from music genres that still have "prog/progressive" in their name but are not strictly classic 70s prog. Something for music nerds (no offense intended). I share your same wishes and hope that DT will start again experimenting with their music, it's something that I've been really missing since SDOIT.

[tiagodon]

People get old, my friend. And with aging comes easement, coziness... Experimenting is for young spirits. I really don't expect another SDOIT from DT. I hope I'm wrong.

[The Stray Seed]

People get old, my friend. And with aging comes easement, coziness... Experimenting is for young spirits. I really don't expect another SDOIT from DT. I hope I'm wrong.

I fear you may be absolutely right.

[snapple]

People get old, my friend. And with aging comes easement, coziness... Experimenting is for young spirits. I really don't expect another SDOIT from DT. I hope I'm wrong.

We should be so lucky.

[Jaq]

Oh god, the prog versus progressive argument rears its ugly head.

Here's how it goes:

Prog: a band that grew up liking Yes.

Progressive: a band that sounds like Radiohead.

[liran95]

Ok. Been away for a week.
Can someone please tell me shortly what did I miss, so I won't have to read 25 pages? 

[Joshin U]

Oh god, the prog versus progressive argument rears its ugly head.

Here's how it goes:

Prog: a band that grew up liking Yes.

Progressive: a band that sounds like Radiohead.

Radiohead...?


RADIOHEAD?


RADIOHEAD??!!

Is Radiohead even kind of considered progressive around here?

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Oh god, the prog versus progressive argument rears its ugly head.

Here's how it goes:

Prog: a band that grew up liking Yes.

Progressive: a band that sounds like Radiohead.

Radiohead...?


RADIOHEAD?


RADIOHEAD??!!

Is Radiohead even kind of considered progressive around here?

Well they are considered experimental rock so yea you could call them that I guess. Don't take my words for it though.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

No thoughts on this?

They're just a metal band that writes long songs. And as I said in another thread, unless I'm missing someone crucial, prog is not progressive.

IMO, they are the same thing. The distinction is just a one made up by people who take music really seriously and want to distinguish bands who make music in the styles of the 70's prog rockers (prog) with bands who genuinely try and push the limits of music in their own way (progressive).

I have no problem calling "prog" bands "progressive" bands, and "proggressive" bands "prog". From my perspective, bands who follow the tradition of 70s  rock can always be referred to as progressive bands OR prog for shorthand, whereas the more modern genre-defyers are generally tacked with the label "experimental" instead.

No matter how you slice it, DT are both progressive AND experimental, though they were more balanced in the early days, whereas now I think they pretty much stick to their own confines (which is fine). I don't mind DT sticking to prog, but I would like a little bit more of that early genre experimenation/fusion return, like the carribean sounding music in Learning to Live or the Jazz across SFAM.

I'm pretty much down with this.

[jonnybaxy]

Nothing except ep 2 of in studio is now out...

Imo prog and progressive are the same, if you define old as prog and New as progressive, the only difference is that modern is heavier and more technical, but prog is the same as progressive.

[jdprsaga]

Ok. Been away for a week.
Can someone please tell me shortly what did I miss, so I won't have to read 25 pages? 

only concrete things that had happened in the last week:
1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTPg6xpZkG0 ... so DTF has been pretty busy applying any CSI knowledge we have.
and:
2: someone in Prog magazine posted in FB he was giving first spin to the album, sounds heavier, more melodic, with some prog parts, with some great time sig changes. .. that was it.. a two sentences heads up of what he was doing in that moment..... So some people have burned the guy soul saying he has no right for living hoping he will suffer in the lake of fire for eternity, others have throw their entire DT collection to the trash and been boozzing since... others have been lighting candles after frame pictures of kevin moore. It's been pandemonium.

[darkshade]

I think what DT could use is a lot more jazz elements in their music. They are all talented jazz players, but I think the only times they use prominent jazz is in their soloing. I'd love some songs that have a consistent jazzy vibe.

yes, please!     

[hefdaddy42]

WTF Super Jew not this prog vs progressive crap again.

DT are most certainly prog.  Whether they are technically progressive is to a certain extent subjective.  But their genre is prog metal.

[darkshade]

Yea, they never seemed to take a huge interest in Jazz music. JP seems to be a bit into fusion, but that's it. Being a good improviser/soloist is different than being a "talented jazz player". Jazz is a completely different animal to what DT does.

This. Jazz is like, the polar opposite of the written music that they play. In an ideal scenario at a DT show, you'd expect to hear all the band members hit every note perfectly and hear the song just as it sounds on the album. The kind of music they play is extremely meticulous and they follow what they played on the record to a tee. When you go to a Jazz show, really the only recognizable thing you hear should be the head (or the main theme or the chorus or whatever you want to call it).

That being said, I'm sure they're more than capable of playing some jazz, it would just take them a bit of getting used to.

That's only one kind of jazz. There are many forms and sub genres. There is plenty of jazz that is completely composed. Besides, the original sub-topic was having DT incorporate jazz elements into their music. Surely it would still be tightly composed music.

[MoraWintersoul]

others have been lighting candles after frame pictures of kevin moore. It's been pandemonium.

*normal mode of behaviour*



Disclaimer: No, I don't have a framed picture of Kevin Moore in my house. And only 20% of me wishes that I did

[BlobVanDam]

WTF Super Jew not this prog vs progressive crap again.

DT are most certainly prog.  Whether they are technically progressive is to a certain extent subjective.  But their genre is prog metal.

More importantly, who cares about genre semantics? If it's good, it's good, and if it's not, it's not!

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Yeah, I hate genre semantics. People that go like OMG they're not Progressive Death Metalcore, they are Progressive GRIND Metalcore... how can you not tell?

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I only listen to Post-Ironic Beardcore.

[OsMosis2259]

losing patience... we need something. Single, snippet, studio footage, track by track interview, JP flexing etc. Anything really.

[sueño]

I only listen to Post-Ironic Beardcore.

It seems to be the most apt...   

[The Stray Seed]

"We've fully explored all of the elements that make us unique, from the epic and intense to the atmospheric and cinematic."

Any thoughts on the last word of JP's sentence about the new album? Somehow it drew my attention.

[Super Dude]

WTF Super Jew not this prog vs progressive crap again.

DT are most certainly prog.  Whether they are technically progressive is to a certain extent subjective.  But their genre is prog metal.

In order to not continue re-opening this can of worms, I will only say what you said is in no way inconsistent with what I was trying to get at.

[wolven74]

"We've fully explored all of the elements that make us unique, from the epic and intense to the atmospheric and cinematic."

Any thoughts on the last word of JP's sentence about the new album? Somehow it drew my attention.

My guess is that "cinematic" refers to the orchestration. I imagine this album is gonna be pretty huge sounding. When I think of cinematic as a descriptor the songs that come to mind are LNF, the overture to 6 degrees.... that sorta thing. Its most likely referring to the use of the orchestra.

[hefdaddy42]

WTF Super Jew not this prog vs progressive crap again.

DT are most certainly prog.  Whether they are technically progressive is to a certain extent subjective.  But their genre is prog metal.

In order to not continue re-opening this can of worms, I will only say what you said is in no way inconsistent with what I was trying to get at.

Oh, OK.

It's Monday.

[Captain Reddot]

WTF Super Jew not this prog vs progressive crap again.

DT are most certainly prog.  Whether they are technically progressive is to a certain extent subjective.  But their genre is prog metal.

More importantly, who cares about genre semantics? If it's good, it's good, and if it's not, it's not!

Agreed. To quote a certain wise Scottish hippy, ''I don't really enjoy putting music into different boxes, there are two types of music: good music and bad music.'' I think that's the key to writing original music, absorbing all your influences and not letting yourself be restricted by the restrictions of a genre. Isn't that what prog is about anyway? Artistic freedom rather than tailoring music to be a specific way. Progressive metal is quite a broad term. As long as a band meets this list of requirements, they're allowed to be considered progressive metal. What about everything else that makes that band unique? They're instantly categorised, leading to stereotyping which I'm also not much of a fan of. Anyway, I'm sure Dream Theater aren't trying to sound a certain way, that's just the way the music comes out as a sum of their influences.

Back on topic, 64 days till the release date. The Winery Dogs have their debut album out tomorrow and The Aristocrats released their new album last week, I have plenty of stuff to keep me busy till then 

[lyfeternl]

All of this "prog" talk has taken me back to the days of Pogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogs)

[Mladen]

Wait a second, how did this discussion about the difference between prog and progressive start? I remember reading an interview in a magazine with Mike or James explaining the difference. Maybe I should try to find the magazine and put the end to the discussion, because we should obviously go with what DT guys think. Plus, we're way off topic. Not that I'm a mod, but still... 

[Flacracker]

Screw this whole argument. Dream theater is Death Metal Electronica.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

All of this "prog" talk has taken me back to the days of Pogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogs)

or "progg"

Let me present to you:

Samla Mammas Manna