Does DT Not Care "WDADU" enough?

[Dream Team]

Right but they only play specific songs: Afterlife, Fortune In Lies and Ytse-Jam for years. They stopped playing The Killing Hand years ago.

True, but most of the songs have been featured on a tour pretty much since Rudess joined the band, IIRC, except for Light Fuse and Get Away (damn it!) and Status Seeker.  Only a Matter of Time was played a lot on the ToT tour, and even The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun got somewhat regular rotation on a tour (the OV one, maybe?). 

It's debatable WDADU is weak or not. Production wise, YES but its lyrics and musics are absolutely amazing.

Yep.  BDV hates WDADU, though, so he will always dog it , but plenty of us like the songwriting a lot.

And I hate it/dog it because of the weak songwriting. Simple cause and effect really. What's the problem with that?

Anyway, whatever way you want to slice it, WDADU is widely regarded as one of DT's weakest albums. That in itself doesn't make it bad, since I still love a lot of the albums I myself rank much lower, but it does perfectly justify DT focusing much less on it.

Well, SC is widely regarding as one of DT's weakest albums, with "songwriting" being the major reason yet you always come to the defense of that one  . Basically a few of us disagree on what constitutes weak songwriting. WDADU has awesome keyboard melodies, great melodic neo-classical guitar riffs, JM's best basslines ever, very energetic and creative drumming from MP, and some very good lyrics including DT's best lyric effort OAMOT. Those elements combine to make good songs to my ears, whereas most of those elements are missing from SC (glaringly so in some cases).

[BlobVanDam]

There's not even a comparison between the flaws of SC and WDADU for me though.

SC has plenty of amazing songwriting, but it's criticized for the style of the music, the lyrical themes, and the formulaic structure and extended use of solo sections. But even taking all of that into account, there is no doubt the music is written by a highly skilled band who can construct strong music. It has memorable riffs, displays DT's mastery of seamless time sig changes, catchy choruses, some downright beautiful sections, and all of the usual trademarks that have made DT a popular band today. ITPOE pt. 1 alone already slays WDADU for dead in every single respect. Night and day.

To me good songwriting is about strong melodies/phrasing, harmonies, a good sense of arrangement of instruments to work together in their roles, all things that SC has plenty of, despite any flaws. WDADU for me fails at the most basic level of songwriting composition for the most part. There are too many sections where the bass doesn't fill its role and just wanders around, and just clashes with the band with little regard for what the guitar is doing, the vocal phrasing often doesn't even fit the lyrics or serve the vocals, the melodies weren't written with the vocalist's abilities in mind, the time sig changes are contrived and used for the sake of being "prog" and don't sound natural, I could just go on about the flaws of this album. I honestly don't think I own another album that is so amateurishly written. Even the few songs I like from the album are really only average at best, especially for DT.

I have no idea why SC even comes up when discussing WDADU. Even for me, SC is in the lower half of DT's discography, but it's still a great album, and massively underrrated. WDADU is not only far and away DT's worst album by a considerable margin, but for me it is such an amateurish effort that isn't even up to the standard of being a studio record at all. Not even in the same ballpark as SC. And that's before even factoring in the demo-ish production and laughable vocals. Fans of the album can try and put it down to the vocals and production all they want, but that's just wishful thinking.

SC is weaker for DT, but still good. WDADU is bad. Getting back to the point of this thread, which is WDADU btw, and not SC, I repeat my point - DT are completely right not to spend much of their precious set time on this album.

[TheGreatPretender]

It still boggles my mind that people don't like SC. I think it's one of their best albums. Certainly better than Black Clouds. 

[Implode]

It still boggles my mind that people like SC. I think it's their worst album. Certainly worse than WDADU. 

FTFM

[BlobVanDam]

It still boggles my mind that people don't like SC. I think it's one of their best albums. Certainly better than Black Clouds. 

For me it's more consistent than BCASL, although for me the strongest tracks from both are equally awesome.

[TheGreatPretender]

For me it's more consistent than BCASL, although for me the strongest tracks from both are equally awesome.

And I'm not saying that BCSL deserves any kind of hate. I just think if there's one album that's a ringer for being behind SC it's that one. But for me personally, SC is one of DT's strongest and more interesting albums, that I'd easily put above anything they've made since the year 2000. I don't expect everyone to agree, I just don't see why it gets so much hate. At first I thought it was the production, the way it's mixed. But 'songwriting'? Seriously? I just don't see how.

[Implode]

SC above SDOIT? 

[TheGreatPretender]

Yes, yes, we get it, you don't like SC.

[BlobVanDam]

For me it's more consistent than BCASL, although for me the strongest tracks from both are equally awesome.

And I'm not saying that BCSL deserves any kind of hate. I just think if there's one album that's a ringer for being behind SC it's that one. But for me personally, SC is one of DT's strongest and more interesting albums, that I'd easily put above anything they've made since the year 2000. I don't expect everyone to agree, I just don't see why it gets so much hate. At first I thought it was the production, the way it's mixed. But 'songwriting'? Seriously? I just don't see how.

Each to their own, I suppose. Every time I listen to the album I rediscover how good it is, and remember why I was so hooked on this album for so long after it came out.

[Phoenix87x]

I don't know how DT feels about WDADU, but its my favorite album behind I&W.

It still impresses me every time I listen to it and with the exception of I&W, I listen to WDADU more often then any other DT album.

[Vivace]

It surprises me that the majority *now* consider it a weak album. I remember when that wasn't the case at all.

I don't.  And I've been a fan since 1992.

You know interestingly enough I think the closer one became a fan to when this album was release the better chance that person will be a huge fan of the album. At least that's what I see as a pattern. 

[BlobVanDam]

It surprises me that the majority *now* consider it a weak album. I remember when that wasn't the case at all.

I don't.  And I've been a fan since 1992.

You know interestingly enough I think the closer one became a fan to when this album was release the better chance that person will be a huge fan of the album. At least that's what I see as a pattern. 

Except that both IaW/Awake are very highly regarded by fans both new and old, yet WDADU isn't. Not really a pattern in this case.

[KevShmev]

I just think if there's one album that's a ringer for being behind SC it's that one. But for me personally, SC is one of DT's strongest and more interesting albums, that I'd easily put above anything they've made since the year 2000. I don't expect everyone to agree, I just don't see why it gets so much hate. At first I thought it was the production, the way it's mixed. But 'songwriting'? Seriously? I just don't see how.

I'll break it down like this: SC's lows are some of the lowest lows of the band's careers, and its highs are easily the weakest highs of any DT album to date.  If I had to do a DT top 50 again, 9 of the 11 DT albums would have at least three songs (even WDADU), Octavarium would only have one (the title track, which would be borderline top 25), and Systematic Chaos might get one song barely make it (Repentance would be in the high 40s, if it made it at all).  But that's just me.

[Vivace]

It surprises me that the majority *now* consider it a weak album. I remember when that wasn't the case at all.

I don't.  And I've been a fan since 1992.

You know interestingly enough I think the closer one became a fan to when this album was release the better chance that person will be a huge fan of the album. At least that's what I see as a pattern. 

Except that both IaW/Awake are very highly regarded by fans both new and old, yet WDADU isn't. Not really a pattern in this case.

Not sure what that has to do with it. [] I'm not comparing fan reactions past and present to Images and Words I'm comparing fan reactions past and present to WDADU based on what appears to be a pattern where early Dream Theater fans seem to hold it in a higher place than later Dream Theater. This really isn't a flexing of muscles statement or a elitist statement at that, it's just a pattern I see.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'll break it down like this: SC's lows are some of the lowest lows of the band's careers, and its highs are easily the weakest highs of any DT album to date.  If I had to do a DT top 50 again, 9 of the 11 DT albums would have at least three songs (even WDADU), Octavarium would only have one (the title track, which would be borderline top 25), and Systematic Chaos might get one song barely make it (Repentance would be in the high 40s, if it made it at all).  But that's just me.

That explains nothing, though. I mean, I think the only low the album has is Repentance, and I don't see now anything else on the album could be considered a low. I even tried to think about it from a Prog vs. Metal perspective, but even then, the album is plenty progressive and if 'too metal not enough prog' was the problem then I'd  think less people would like TOT. So yeah, I just don't understand why people don't like it. And I never will. But anyway, getting off topic.

[BlobVanDam]

It surprises me that the majority *now* consider it a weak album. I remember when that wasn't the case at all.

I don't.  And I've been a fan since 1992.

You know interestingly enough I think the closer one became a fan to when this album was release the better chance that person will be a huge fan of the album. At least that's what I see as a pattern. 

Except that both IaW/Awake are very highly regarded by fans both new and old, yet WDADU isn't. Not really a pattern in this case.

Not sure what that has to do with it. [] I'm not comparing fan reactions past and present to Images and Words I'm comparing fan reactions past and present to WDADU based on what appears to be a pattern where early Dream Theater fans seem to hold it in a higher place than later Dream Theater. This really isn't a flexing of muscles statement or a elitist statement at that, it's just a pattern I see.

I misread your point and thought you were saying albums in general, rather than just WDADU. My bad.
While I do think you're right to some extent, in that the older fans do seem to be most of the people who really love it, I think my point is a fair extrapolation showing that the reason people dislike it isn't primarily based on that factor. But I don't think you're really arguing that anyway.

[TheGreatPretender]

I misread your point and thought you were saying albums in general, rather than just WDADU. My bad.
While I do think you're right to some extent, in that the older fans do seem to be most of the people who really love it, I think my point is a fair extrapolation showing that the reason people dislike it isn't primarily based on that factor. But I don't think you're really arguing that anyway.

I definitely think Dominici has a lot to do with it.
I mean, personally, it took me a little bit of time to get used to LaBrie, but once I did, he just became the definitive voice of DT. He really grew on me. So when I first heard WDADU, it was quite a shock to hear a voice so different on a DT album. Whereas, if you're getting into DT 1989 - 1992, chances are even if you hear Images and Words first, you'd follow up by listening to WDADU, and all you have are these two albums, so JaBrie is still considered a new element, rather than one of the trademark sounds of DT.

[Ħ]

SC is really not that bad. It's not as good as their other albums (maybe because it's not very ambitious) but it's solid music.

[KevShmev]

I'll break it down like this: SC's lows are some of the lowest lows of the band's careers, and its highs are easily the weakest highs of any DT album to date.  If I had to do a DT top 50 again, 9 of the 11 DT albums would have at least three songs (even WDADU), Octavarium would only have one (the title track, which would be borderline top 25), and Systematic Chaos might get one song barely make it (Repentance would be in the high 40s, if it made it at all).  But that's just me.

That explains nothing, though. I mean, I think the only low the album has is Repentance, and I don't see now anything else on the album could be considered a low. I even tried to think about it from a Prog vs. Metal perspective, but even then, the album is plenty progressive and if 'too metal not enough prog' was the problem then I'd  think less people would like TOT. So yeah, I just don't understand why people don't like it. And I never will. But anyway, getting off topic.

Constant Motion and Forsaken are two of their lowest lows ever, IMO, but I know you won't agree, so there ya go.

[Ħ]

I'll break it down like this: SC's lows are some of the lowest lows of the band's careers, and its highs are easily the weakest highs of any DT album to date.  If I had to do a DT top 50 again, 9 of the 11 DT albums would have at least three songs (even WDADU), Octavarium would only have one (the title track, which would be borderline top 25), and Systematic Chaos might get one song barely make it (Repentance would be in the high 40s, if it made it at all).  But that's just me.

That explains nothing, though. I mean, I think the only low the album has is Repentance, and I don't see now anything else on the album could be considered a low. I even tried to think about it from a Prog vs. Metal perspective, but even then, the album is plenty progressive and if 'too metal not enough prog' was the problem then I'd  think less people would like TOT. So yeah, I just don't understand why people don't like it. And I never will. But anyway, getting off topic.

Constant Motion and Forsaken are two of their lowest lows ever, IMO, but I know you won't agree, so there ya go.

Really? Forsaken is average at worst, and I think Constant Motion is really something.

[KevShmev]

Constant Motion is musically good (great riff and JP's solo is aces), but the vocal melodies are just sooooo bad.  From the Metallica wannabe feel of the verses to "forever more into the night blistering" (the latter of which is probably the most embarrassing moment in the band's history), they are just very, very bad. 

[Ħ]

I guess I feel you with the odd vocal melodies in the verses, but I think the chorus is actually pretty good. Oh well, to each his own.

[BlobVanDam]

I guess I feel you with the odd vocal melodies in the verses, but I think the chorus is actually pretty good. Oh well, to each his own.

The CM chorus is great, especially with the shifting in tonality, and JR's simple melody over the top. A good headbanging metal song, even though it is by far their most derivative of Metallica.
And there's nothing wrong with Forsaken either for a simpler song, although not one of their top songs. Amazing guitar solo too.

Oh and people, this is a thread about WDADU btw.

[Ħ]

What if they rewrote WDADU? Not only by upgrading production and using James's vocals, but by rewriting parts that aren't as good. I know that there's some legality issues, but I would be down for the idea.

[KevShmev]

I wouldn't.  Not without Kevin Moore. 

Besides, DT should be moving forward, not re-recording albums from over 20 years ago.

[Ħ]

Because Kevin totally added something to WDADU. 


I agree that I'd rather hear new music. But if they made it a bonus disc or something, like the covers on BC&SL, I'd be stoked.

[Implode]

Agreed. Why not do both? There are some really great songs on that album.

[KevShmev]

Because Kevin totally added something to WDADU. 

Are you implying he didn't?  Because if you are, you clearly are either misinformed or ignorant.

[TheGreatPretender]

Constant Motion and Forsaken are two of their lowest lows ever, IMO, but I know you won't agree, so there ya go.

You're right, I don't agree. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the piano melody in Forsaken is the best Piano melody I've heard from Dream Theater since Kevin Moore left the band.

[Ħ]

I mean, he wrote the lyrics (which were good) but musically...errrrr....

[bosk1]

I'll break it down like this: SC's lows are some of the lowest lows of the band's careers, and its highs are easily the weakest highs of any DT album to date. 

Constant Motion and Forsaken are two of their lowest lows ever, IMO, but I know you won't agree, so there ya go.

I can't speak for others, obviously.  But I personally want to thank you for these two posts.  You have just conclusively proven that drugs indeed impair one's judgment.

[?]

I like how every WDADU thread ends up in discussion about Systematic Chaos

[wolven74]

I've always considered When Dream and Day Unite to be the final remnants of the Majesty era- and Images and Words to be the true genesis of Dream Theater. This is where the band really evolved into something special by developing their own sound, and shedding the obvious derivative influences (Rush and Queensryche) present on WDADU among other flaws.

This.

I've always seen the "original" lineup as JLB, KM, JP, JMX and MP. I know it's not the case, but when I first heard WDADU (years after I&W was released) it just didn't sound like Dream Theater to me. It's not to say that the style wasn't there, but the maturity surely wasn't. I always refer to I&W as the first "real" DT album.

[Dream Team]

I'll break it down like this: SC's lows are some of the lowest lows of the band's careers, and its highs are easily the weakest highs of any DT album to date.  If I had to do a DT top 50 again, 9 of the 11 DT albums would have at least three songs (even WDADU), Octavarium would only have one (the title track, which would be borderline top 25), and Systematic Chaos might get one song barely make it (Repentance would be in the high 40s, if it made it at all).  But that's just me.

That explains nothing, though. I mean, I think the only low the album has is Repentance, and I don't see now anything else on the album could be considered a low. I even tried to think about it from a Prog vs. Metal perspective, but even then, the album is plenty progressive and if 'too metal not enough prog' was the problem then I'd  think less people would like TOT. So yeah, I just don't understand why people don't like it. And I never will. But anyway, getting off topic.

That opinion is bizarre to me, because Repentance contains the only GENUINE emotion on the entire album.

[snapple]

I mean, he wrote the lyrics (which were good) but musically...errrrr....

A Fortune in Lies

https://youtu.be/6l326glc1XQ?t=1m9s

Status Seeker

https://youtu.be/-zlaEno1oBU?t=1m5s (if you can't hear the keys and what they add to this part, you're totally missing it)

Light Fuse and Get Away

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEm1XjZORxg I feel like the keys on this track are outstanding

Only A Matter of Time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsaTF8-M3-I&feature=relmfu The keys set the entire tone of the song. No way that could have been KM, could it?

Afterlife

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QewcztyN-TA do you notice how the keys help the intro come along? I mean, this is just the beginning of the song

And, do I even have to post Ytse Jam? All of those parts came off the top of my head in literally like 5 seconds. If you can't appreciate KM's keys, you're ridiculous.