Does DT Not Care "WDADU" enough?

[SeRoX]

I have this feeling. We, as fans, on the other hand, may not care WDADU for some reasons but I get the feeling that DT doesn't care either. I'm not sure if "care" is the right word to use or not but here we go.

Do you think they consider I&W their somewhat debut? Yes, I know, they did anniversary, they do play songs from it but I feel they think they were born with I&W. As a fan, I agree though.

[KevShmev]

I don't know about that.  While it has never gotten as much play as all of the other albums (other than the first two tours, when they only had one or two albums worth of stuff to play), Portnoy always featured a song here and a song there from it in their set lists for the bulk of their career from 1994-2010, and A Fortune in Lies and Ytse Jam have both been played a lot in the last year, so while it probably isn't a favorite of theirs, they don't totally disregard it.

[BlobVanDam]

Do you think they consider I&W their somewhat debut?

I don't know if DT consider IaW their effective debut, but I pretty much do.

I'd say they care just the right amount about WDADU considering how overall weak it is. When you've released 11 albums, there are only so many songs from each album you can squeeze into the set, so you have to prioritize the stuff people want to hear, or the stuff you want to play.
They have played a couple of songs from the album this tour alone, so I wouldn't say they don't care about it though.

[SeRoX]

Right but they only play specific songs: Afterlife, Fortune In Lies and Ytse-Jam for years. They stopped playing The Killing Hand years ago.

It's debatable WDADU is weak or not. Production wise, YES but its lyrics and musics are absolutely amazing.

[SjundeInseglet]

I have this feeling. We, as fans, on the other hand, may not care WDADU for some reasons but I get the feeling that DT doesn't care either. I'm not sure if "care" is the right word to use or not but here we go.

Do you think they consider I&W their somewhat debut? Yes, I know, they did anniversary, they do play songs from it but I feel they think they were born with I&W. As a fan, I agree though.

I think the remaining original DT members see most of the WDaDU songs as being a little bit amateurish and aren't overly fond of them. I don't think they outright hate them but they surely aren't too proud of them either. As far as I can remember, MP was the only one who had any interest in playing most of those songs live (so he pushed the others to do so on occasion). Also, I believe JB and JR don't care much for them because they haven't got an emotional connection to the songs themselves (as they weren't around when they were written and recorded). Still, the band has played some WDaDU material recently so I guess they actually care enough about the record to acknowledge it.

[KevShmev]

Right but they only play specific songs: Afterlife, Fortune In Lies and Ytse-Jam for years. They stopped playing The Killing Hand years ago.

True, but most of the songs have been featured on a tour pretty much since Rudess joined the band, IIRC, except for Light Fuse and Get Away (damn it!) and Status Seeker.  Only a Matter of Time was played a lot on the ToT tour, and even The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun got somewhat regular rotation on a tour (the OV one, maybe?). 

It's debatable WDADU is weak or not. Production wise, YES but its lyrics and musics are absolutely amazing.

Yep.  BDV hates WDADU, though, so he will always dog it , but plenty of us like the songwriting a lot.

[IdoSC]

The last tour where they played any song from this album was Octavarium.

In the Octavarium tour, they only rotated between Afterlife and A Fortune in Lies.
In Train of Thought tour, they rotated between Ytse Jam and Only a Matter of Time as far as I remember, and also there was a performance featuring the entire album.
In SDOIT tour, they played The Killing Hand a bunch of times.

Note that, for the most part, those 3 tours featured the "Evening with" format.

So basically my point is - with Portnoy being in charge of the setlist, it seems like songs from WDADU only appeared in Evening With lately, completely neglecting the album from 2007 to 2010.
But now, with a completely standard set, the band actually added A Fortune in Lies or Ytse Jam to most of the shows. To me, that may not be ideal as I love every other song in that album as well, but it's a great start, considering we don't know how "New Dream Theater" would handle a tour where they don't have to prove anyone that they're still alive and kicking and just play for the hell of it. Or better yet, an Evening With tour.

[chrisbDTM]

i think they acknowledge it just fine. ytse jam was played last leg and afil is being played now. FII and BC&SL arent even featured

[BlobVanDam]

Right but they only play specific songs: Afterlife, Fortune In Lies and Ytse-Jam for years. They stopped playing The Killing Hand years ago.

True, but most of the songs have been featured on a tour pretty much since Rudess joined the band, IIRC, except for Light Fuse and Get Away (damn it!) and Status Seeker.  Only a Matter of Time was played a lot on the ToT tour, and even The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun got somewhat regular rotation on a tour (the OV one, maybe?). 

It's debatable WDADU is weak or not. Production wise, YES but its lyrics and musics are absolutely amazing.

Yep.  BDV hates WDADU, though, so he will always dog it , but plenty of us like the songwriting a lot.

And I hate it/dog it because of the weak songwriting. Simple cause and effect really. What's the problem with that?

Anyway, whatever way you want to slice it, WDADU is widely regarded as one of DT's weakest albums. That in itself doesn't make it bad, since I still love a lot of the albums I myself rank much lower, but it does perfectly justify DT focusing much less on it.

[KevShmev]

No problem at all; I was just saying.

Also, IdoSC, I know The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun was played a few times at least on one of those tours in the mid 00s or something. 

[MetropolisWatches]

I've always considered When Dream and Day Unite to be the final remnants of the Majesty era- and Images and Words to be the true genesis of Dream Theater. This is where the band really evolved into something special by developing their own sound, and shedding the obvious derivative influences (Rush and Queensryche) present on WDADU among other flaws. 

[Vivace]

It surprises me that the majority *now* consider it a weak album. I remember when that wasn't the case at all. It seems as if time was the worst enemy of that album. I'm in the minority with it. It's never been outside my top 5. I love it, despite what others say about the so-called weak songwriting and obvious production value.

[bosk1]

It surprises me that the majority *now* consider it a weak album. I remember when that wasn't the case at all.

I don't.  And I've been a fan since 1992.

[TAC]

I know The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun was played a few times at least on one of those tours in the mid 00s or something.

Yes, the ToT tour.

I think the setlists are in great hands. As stated before, they've included a WDADU track on every leg of the tour, including last summer, where they also represented EVERY album in the setlist.

The Silent Man/BTS and WFS/FFH sections on the last couple legs were fantastic additions to the show. Other than some song extensions that have taken place in the past, this tour has been great songwise. Even the JP/JR intro to TSCO seems to have taken on a life of its own and seems to be evolving over time.

[TheGreatPretender]

Honestly, I think the biggest problem with WDADU is Charlie Dominici. I don't dislike the guy, I think he's got some nice Jazzy vocal qualities, but still, I find very little interesting about his voice. Or maybe it's the actual vocal melodies on the album.

I like WDADU, but honestly, I'd rather listen to Winter Rose any day of the week.

As to what the band thinks of it? I can't imagine any artist listening to something they made over 20 years ago and not cringing a little bit at how bad they were.

[Jaq]

As others have said, if they didn't care for it, they wouldn't play songs from it. Simple as that,

We're not talking about what Kiss did in the 80s, when their tour programs listed all their albums and didn't list Music From The Elder after all. It's a part of their history and one they revisit fairly often. Now, if the question is "do you think they wish it was better?" my answer would likely be: of course. I imagine there isn't an artist in music that doesn't think some or even all of their music could be better.

[SeRoX]

It surprises me that the majority *now* consider it a weak album.

I don't either. I admit production is far from good. Charlie's vocal is OK but somehow not fitting. But again, WDADU includes one of the best musical arrangement both musically and lyrically.

[IdoSC]

Honestly, I think the biggest problem with WDADU is Charlie Dominici. I don't dislike the guy, I think he's got some nice Jazzy vocal qualities, but still, I find very little interesting about his voice. Or maybe it's the actual vocal melodies on the album.

I like WDADU, but honestly, I'd rather listen to Winter Rose any day of the week.

As to what the band thinks of it? I can't imagine any artist listening to something they made over 20 years ago and not cringing a little bit at how bad they were.

Honestly, if they feel that way about WDADU, they probably feel the same way about any other song that they wrote eventually. People constantly refer to any song in their discography in similarly high regards. And while it was probably a little more unprofessional back then, some, or even many moments of their later releases do sound like it's the same band behind it in the end of the day.

As for that note about Winter Rose, I really don't get where you're coming from here. It was a fantastic album for the most part if you can relate to Glam Metal IMO.

[TheGreatPretender]

Honestly, if they feel that way about WDADU, they probably feel the same way about any other song that they wrote eventually. People constantly refer to any song in their discography in similarly high regards. And while it was probably a little more unprofessional back then, some, or even many moments of their later releases do sound like it's the same band behind it in the end of the day.

Well, who says they don't? I bet there are parts of I&W, Awake and FII where JP listens to and thinks, "Oh God, what was I thinking?" But as he said during the drummer auditions, the fans heard these songs hundreds of times, and he has to stay true to the original material (aside from the odd extended solo).
But then again, I'm not a musician, I'm a vocalist. I just know that if I were to listen to my own vocals and lyrics from a few years back, I'd surely cringe.

As for that note about Winter Rose, I really don't get where you're coming from here. It was a fantastic album for the most part if you can relate to Glam Metal IMO.

I never said it wasn't a fantastic album. I think Winter Rose blows Motley Crue and Poison out of the water.

What I'm saying is that I would rather listen to Glam Metal with LaBrie on vocals than Progressive Metal with Charlie Dominici on vocals.

[IdoSC]

Honestly, if they feel that way about WDADU, they probably feel the same way about any other song that they wrote eventually. People constantly refer to any song in their discography in similarly high regards. And while it was probably a little more unprofessional back then, some, or even many moments of their later releases do sound like it's the same band behind it in the end of the day.

Well, who says they don't? I bet there are parts of I&W, Awake and FII where JP listens to and thinks, "Oh God, what was I thinking?" But as he said during the drummer auditions, the fans heard these songs hundreds of times, and he has to stay true to the original material (aside from the odd extended solo).
But then again, I'm not a musician, I'm a vocalist. I just know that if I were to listen to my own vocals and lyrics from a few years back, I'd surely cringe.

As for that note about Winter Rose, I really don't get where you're coming from here. It was a fantastic album for the most part if you can relate to Glam Metal IMO.

I never said it wasn't a fantastic album. I think Winter Rose blows Motley Crue and Poison out of the water.

What I'm saying is that I would rather listen to Glam Metal with LaBrie on vocals than Progressive Metal with Charlie Dominici on vocals.

Misunderstood your whole post then And I completely agree on that comment about Winter Rose in that case.

EDIT: For the second time in a row my mind tricked me to begin my answer to you with the same word you started with. So edited to fix it XD

[Priest of Syrinx]

It surprises me that the majority *now* consider it a weak album. I remember when that wasn't the case at all. It seems as if time was the worst enemy of that album. I'm in the minority with it. It's never been outside my top 5. I love it, despite what others say about the so-called weak songwriting and obvious production value.

It was only a matter of time before someone posted this.

[MetropolisWatches]

It surprises me that the majority *now* consider it a weak album. I remember when that wasn't the case at all. It seems as if time was the worst enemy of that album. I'm in the minority with it. It's never been outside my top 5. I love it, despite what others say about the so-called weak songwriting and obvious production value.

It was only a matter of time before someone posted this.

Pun intended?

[IdoSC]

It surprises me that the majority *now* consider it a weak album. I remember when that wasn't the case at all. It seems as if time was the worst enemy of that album. I'm in the minority with it. It's never been outside my top 5. I love it, despite what others say about the so-called weak songwriting and obvious production value.

It was only a matter of time before someone posted this.

Pun intended?

You're running in circles.

[wasteland]

It surprises me that the majority *now* consider it a weak album. I remember when that wasn't the case at all. It seems as if time was the worst enemy of that album. I'm in the minority with it. It's never been outside my top 5. I love it, despite what others say about the so-called weak songwriting and obvious production value.

It was only a matter of time before someone posted this.

Pun intended?

You're running in circles.

I can see where this is going...

[Ħ]

For all practical purposes, IAW is their debut album. I think they sort of feel that way, too.

[TheGreatPretender]

Misunderstood your whole post then And I completely agree on that comment about Winter Rose in that case.

EDIT: For the second time in a row my mind tricked me to begin my answer to you with the same word you started with. So edited to fix it XD

Actually, you know what? I'm gonna backpedal on that one. It's not Charlie Dominici that I didn't like. I just didn't really like most of the vocal melodies they wrote for the album, that's the biggest turnoff for me. When they're good, they're great. Fortune In Lies, Status Seeker, the chorus to Set The Sun, pretty much a lot of the choruses were good. But the verses, half the time they sounded like Charlie was just speaking them out with a variety of inflection. I found that the melodies didn't really fit the songs, or weren't that good. So that's my biggest gripe with the album. Even LaBrie, singing them as they were on the album, doesn't really save the actual songs.

[wolfking]

I have this feeling. We, as fans, on the other hand, may not care WDADU for some reasons but I get the feeling that DT doesn't care either. I'm not sure if "care" is the right word to use or not but here we go.

Do you think they consider I&W their somewhat debut? Yes, I know, they did anniversary, they do play songs from it but I feel they think they were born with I&W. As a fan, I agree though.

I don't think this is true at all.  For the only album having a different vocalist, I think the representation they give the album is more than expected.

Look at Priest and Maiden, they basically ignore the Blaze and Ripper stuff.  Hell, Rippers two albums are even classified as Priest albums it seems.

[Siberian Khatru]

For all practical purposes, IAW is their debut album. I think they sort of feel that way, too.

Except it isn't, and they don't. lol. There's a big different between a "debut" album and a "breakthrough" album. Images and Words is the latter.

They don't play much from WDADU, and I'm fine with that. I don't consider it to be a very good album.

[Ħ]

I don't even consider it a DT album.

[iamtheeviltwin]

Misunderstood your whole post then And I completely agree on that comment about Winter Rose in that case.

EDIT: For the second time in a row my mind tricked me to begin my answer to you with the same word you started with. So edited to fix it XD

Actually, you know what? I'm gonna backpedal on that one. It's not Charlie Dominici that I didn't like. I just didn't really like most of the vocal melodies they wrote for the album, that's the biggest turnoff for me. When they're good, they're great. Fortune In Lies, Status Seeker, the chorus to Set The Sun, pretty much a lot of the choruses were good. But the verses, half the time they sounded like Charlie was just speaking them out with a variety of inflection. I found that the melodies didn't really fit the songs, or weren't that good. So that's my biggest gripe with the album. Even LaBrie, singing them as they were on the album, doesn't really save the actual songs.

This was the biggest change between DT of WDADU and I&W.  With the addition of James and some more experience the vocal melodies were a vast improvement between the two albums.

[TheGreatPretender]

This was the biggest change between DT of WDADU and I&W.  With the addition of James and some more experience the vocal melodies were a vast improvement between the two albums.

Definitely. My point is that it's not that I think Charlie Dominici is a bad singer or anything. I think he's got some really nice vocal qualities, but it's as MP said, he just wasn't right for Dream Theater. And you could tell, he was always trying to sing higher than he actually could, which resulted in switching to either switching to Falsetto which seriously lacked the power, or just singing some different note all together which didn't even fit the melody.

[KevShmev]

I don't even consider it a DT album.

Fortunately, whether or not you consider it a DT album is irrelevant.  It IS a DT album.  End of story.

[BlobVanDam]

This was the biggest change between DT of WDADU and I&W.  With the addition of James and some more experience the vocal melodies were a vast improvement between the two albums.

Definitely. My point is that it's not that I think Charlie Dominici is a bad singer or anything. I think he's got some really nice vocal qualities, but it's as MP said, he just wasn't right for Dream Theater. And you could tell, he was always trying to sing higher than he actually could, which resulted in switching to either switching to Falsetto which seriously lacked the power, or just singing some different note all together which didn't even fit the melody.

It's definitely not that he's a bad singer, but he was trying to sing out of his comfort zone for sure. Those high falsettos sound embarrassing, and the vocal melodies and phrasing are all over the place.
But then go and listen to one of his recent solo albums (I actually only have O3 part 3), and he sounds quite good, especially when you consider it's 20 years later.

[TheGreatPretender]

It's definitely not that he's a bad singer, but he was trying to sing out of his comfort zone for sure. Those high falsettos sound embarrassing, and the vocal melodies and phrasing are all over the place.
But then go and listen to one of his recent solo albums (I actually only have O3 part 3), and he sounds quite good, especially when you consider it's 20 years later.

I'll definitely check it out. But yeah, the point is that it's BECAUSE he was singing out of his comfort zone and like you said, the phrasing was everywhere, that it kind of kills parts of WDADU for me.

[?]

I think JP and JM (don't know about James and Jordan as they didn't appear on the album) may not have cared about WDADU in the past few years but they have probably warmed up to it, considering a WDADU song has been in almost every setlist on this tour.