Does Dream Theater have an artistic statement?

[rumborak]

A bit of a heretic question to ask, for sure, but I figured it could spur an interesting discussion.
Mind you, this isn't some offhanded bashing of DT. I really like their music (especially the older stuff), but I can definitely say that I perceive DT's music as coming from a "different spot" than say music from Porcupine Tree or Opeth. People have often said that DT are music geeks writing music for other music geeks, and maybe that's it. I would definitely be hard pressed to say that DT's music, with the occasional exception, has an artistic statement.

Thoughts? Hatred? Ice cream?

rumborak

[snapple]

I've always just gathered that they were guys who loved writing music and that's what they're doing. I know, super specific answer.

[ronrule]

I think Moore and Myung write lyrics and musical ideas from a more artistic place.

JP seems mostly an amazing riff guy with lyrics often as a cool afterthought. Well, maybe half of his songs fall into this. (Here's some great riffs, let's arrange them in an interesting way, . . . now what about lyrics? . . .off to wikipedia, mangas, etc). But on the other hand, he can write something like Wither, which shows some lyrical craft and expresses inner inspiration).

[ronrule]

And I think the method of songwriting in the studio in a shorter period of time, trying to capture lighting, moves bands away from a more artistic, refined vision for an album. Things become more scattershot, more uneven, less consistent.

[robwebster]

A bit of a heretic question to ask, for sure, but I figured it could spur an interesting discussion.
Mind you, this isn't some offhanded bashing of DT. I really like their music (especially the older stuff), but I can definitely say that I perceive DT's music as coming from a "different spot" than say music from Porcupine Tree or Opeth. People have often said that DT are music geeks writing music for other music geeks, and maybe that's it. I would definitely be hard pressed to say that DT's music, with the occasional exception, has an artistic statement.

Thoughts? Hatred? Ice cream?

rumborak

It's not arty, it doesn't ache like high art, but to dismiss it as artless is a bit like dismissing BBC's Sherlock as artless. Or Ghostbusters. Or a Roald Dahl book.

It's not gallery-art, perhaps, but frankly, Porcupine Tree and Opeth are a lot more superficial then their fans like to think, too. Put on Blind Faith and tell me it's not beautiful, and I'll agree that Dream Theater don't have an artistic statement.

No, actually, don't, 'cos someone will actually say that, and that's totally their choice. Disregard that last sentence, kids. But it tugs at the heartstrings. Paints a picture. It's a brilliant noise that you put on purely to fill your room with brilliant noise. That's art, to me.

[lithium112]

This is a really interesting question. I think the way DT writes music is fundamentally different to the way PT and Opeth do and I'll try to formalize my take on that.

The way I see DT's music is that it, more than anything, is comprised of discrete elements. Sections that each achieve a different purpose and make a separate musical statement. This is not true for all of their songs, but I think the majority fall into this camp. This is what allows DT to write epics with several "acts" holding completely different meanings and feelings. That isn't to say that songs like TCOT, Metropolis, Octavarium or Root of All Evil (to pick some varied examples) don't flow well. But there are multiple distinct ideas expressed within each song that have merit as individual musical statements. That is, you could take the instrumental section of Metropolis, or the intervals section of 8vm and create whole new songs based off those ideas.

Opeth and PT, on the other hand, write music that generally expresses the same mood or idea throughout the entire pieces. Take a song like PT's Arriving Somewhere But Not Here, for instance. It has some sonically different sections, but the way the song evolves produces a more consistent atmosphere throughout. You can almost perceive the entire song to be a build-up to the metal riff, and then a gradual cool-down towards the end. It takes the music a much longer time to turn in a new direction than you would see in a DT song.

I guess you could argue that in the specific examples of Opeth and PT this is a result of one person with one mood and one vision being the primary songwriter, whereas DT has 4 guys behind the wheel. But I also think there's a difference in the approach to writing. DT music is not only about the mood, but also about the musicians and the act of performing the music, so making something more technical could be an end in itself sometimes.

To answer your question directly, I would say that Dream Theater has an artistic statement, but of a very different nature than Porcupine Tree, so it's up to the listener to determine whether the statement is meaningful or not.

[namgalsipsclar]

Well to me, music is music and art is art, but I guess i'm just weird like that

[Ħ]

I'd say they come from two angles.  The first is that they want to be a true rock band.  They want the awesome gigs, the long tours, the live jamming, the bus rides, the cover songs, everything (but sex and drugs).  The second is that they want to be very technically proficient.  They want to keep their chops in check, and basically master whatever instrument they play.

The "rock band" angle was mostly Mike Portnoy's thing, so now I'd say Dream Theater is all about the technical aspect and having that very "crisp" sound.

[Dublagent66]

I just don't know anymore.  Early on, their arrangements were ground breaking.  Now, all I seem to hear is repetitiveness.  A riff here, a passage there.  I've already heard that before in another song.  Is art supposed to repeat itself?  Some of the new stuff is really catchy and I love those parts.  But, the work seems to be less artistic than it used to be.

[Cool Chris]

I think all art makes a statement, to some degree, even if that statement is "we're gonna rock!" or "we hope you like these tunes, buy our album." That isn't very artistic, but it is still a statement.

On second thought, if you are producing art for the sole sake of public consumption, maybe that isn't artistic, or making a statement. But it is still art.

[Nick]

Kind of building on what Rob said I don't think they have an artistic statement in the way some bands/any other artist make art for art's sake, but I do believe they have an artistic statement to make in the way they continue to be a genre leading band and are constantly defining progressive metal. Some people say they fail to see progression in their later work but I couldn't disagree more with many things, and I think, musically at the very least that they certainly have an artistic statement.

[TAC]

I'm sorry, but what makes Opeth or Porcupine Tree more of an artful statement than Dream Theater?

[Pinga]

OP, what exactly do you mean by artistic statement?

[TheOutlawXanadu]

This is an interesting one because at the end of the day, "artistic statement" has an arbitrary definition. It means what you want it to mean.

To me, Dream Theater does not have much of an artistic statement. They write music they love and that's why they do it. They try to make no statements. Unlike Porcupine Tree where every album is a comment on society or Opeth who are literally trying to change metal, Dream Theater do what they do simply for the sake of doing it.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

[Pinga]

How is "They write music they love and that's why they do it." not a valid artistic statement? Writing music for music's sake is artistically fulfilling. Also, I guess every artist who makes music for a purpose other than to make money is making an artistic statement.

[Sigz]

I have almost no idea what 'artistic statement' really means, but I'm inclined to say no. Not that it matters as long as the music is enjoyable.

[lumpy33]

I just don't know anymore.  Early on, their arrangements were ground breaking.  Now, all I seem to hear is repetitiveness.  A riff here, a passage there.  I've already heard that before in another song.  Is art supposed to repeat itself?  Some of the new stuff is really catchy and I love those parts.  But, the work seems to be less artistic than it used to be.

i agree with most of this, except the last sentence.  i don't think the work is less artistic, it's just not as overwhelmingly fresh because we've heard their style of writing before over the course of 12(?) albums.  it's just familiar now, not groundbreaking like it was in the beginning.  and i'm cool with that.  i'll always check out thoroughly every new release...

if by artistic statement we're talking about something like a political message band as in rage against the machine, i don't see d.t. having one.  if by artistic statement we're talking about musicians writing music because they just love writing music, d.t. is the (insert your favorite ninja turtle here) of the metal genre.  i find their artistry incredible across the board.  i would never just cite a ballad of theirs when claiming them to be an artistic band.  even the heaviest metal tunes of theirs are just as artistic, because they are a group of amazing artists playing music.

their artistic statement is "we are badass musicians.  come check out this cool tune we just wrote.  thanks so much for listening!"

[theseoafs]

The music itself is art, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that anything is DT's artistic statement. Their approach to music is a very lighthearted and fun one, as opposed to Opeth and Porcupine Tree, who are all about darkness and mood and lyrical messages.

[Ħ]

The music itself is art, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that anything is DT's artistic statement. Their approach to music is a very lighthearted and fun one, as opposed to Opeth and Porcupine Tree, who are all about darkness and mood and lyrical messages.

That's probably the best difference between the two that you could point out.  Opeth and PT seldom have bouncy moments (musically), DT is almost always energetic and upbeat.

[Pinga]

Dear Lord, what does mood have to do with the music being an artistic statement or not?

[TheOutlawXanadu]

How is "They write music they love and that's why they do it." not a valid artistic statement? Writing music for music's sake is artistically fulfilling. Also, I guess every artist who makes music for a purpose other than to make money is making an artistic statement.

Dear Lord, what does mood have to do with the music being an artistic statement or not?

Instead of sitting here telling us that we're all wrong, why not enlighten us with your own opinion on the matter? Does Dream Theater have an artistic statement, Mr. Pinga?

[theseoafs]

Dear Lord, what does mood have to do with the music being an artistic statement or not?

Basically everything.

For example, Bridges in the Sky is a great song, but it's not about anything of substance. A shaman is described but the lyrics don't serve any higher purpose or communicate any greater message. That's all I mean when I say DT doesn't have any great artistic statement; that is, in their music, DT isn't trying to do anything other than playing fun music.

[Pinga]

How is "They write music they love and that's why they do it." not a valid artistic statement? Writing music for music's sake is artistically fulfilling. Also, I guess every artist who makes music for a purpose other than to make money is making an artistic statement.

Dear Lord, what does mood have to do with the music being an artistic statement or not?

Instead of sitting here telling us that we're all wrong, why not enlighten us with your own opinion on the matter? Does Dream Theater have an artistic statement, Mr. Pinga?

I did not say anyone was wrong, and did not mean to come off that way. Art is subjective, and so what an artistic statement is is also subjective, which is the reason why I asked rumborak to define what exactly he meant. I think DT makes an artistic statement because it makes music for the sake of it. I can't put it more plainly than that.

[Pinga]

Dear Lord, what does mood have to do with the music being an artistic statement or not?

Basically everything.

For example, Bridges in the Sky is a great song, but it's not about anything of substance. A shaman is described but the lyrics don't serve any higher purpose or communicate any greater message. That's all I mean when I say DT doesn't have any great artistic statement; that is, in their music, DT isn't trying to do anything other than playing fun music.

While it is clear that you and I have different interpretations of what 'artistic statement' is, I still don't get why "fun" music doesn't make an artistic statement, while "sad" music does. Is art only about sad stuff?

[theseoafs]

Dear Lord, what does mood have to do with the music being an artistic statement or not?

Basically everything.

For example, Bridges in the Sky is a great song, but it's not about anything of substance. A shaman is described but the lyrics don't serve any higher purpose or communicate any greater message. That's all I mean when I say DT doesn't have any great artistic statement; that is, in their music, DT isn't trying to do anything other than playing fun music.

While it is clear that you and I have different interpretations of what 'artistic statement' is, I still don't get why "fun" music doesn't make an artistic statement, while "sad" music does. Is art only about sad stuff?

As art music goes, it's far easier to be considered arty when there's a dark mood. I think that's the case for most art forms in our postmodern world or post-postmodern world or whatever world it is that we live in. Obviously the happy music can still be art and have an artistic statement to make but it's more difficult.

I'd like to ask you, however, what you think DT's artistic statement is.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm sorry, but what makes Opeth or Porcupine Tree more of an artful statement than Dream Theater?

This. I'm not trying to dismiss the question, rumby, I just truly don't understand what the question is trying to ask. All "art" makes an artistic statement.

[lithium112]

While some of the time their music is fun and doesn't carry any greater message (e.g. TDEN, TCOT, etc.) there are plenty of songs that DO discuss intriguing and controversial topics (e.g. ITNOG, Six degrees, the AA suite in some sense). DT's style is diverse enough to allow for songs that are both thoughtful like Repentance and just plain fun like Constant Motion all within the same album. In my opinion, THAT's what makes them artistic. They are truly masters of their craft. Not to mention that the vast majority of bands can't write a good 15+ minute song.

[Pinga]

I'm sorry, but what makes Opeth or Porcupine Tree more of an artful statement than Dream Theater?

This. I'm not trying to dismiss the question, rumby, I just truly don't understand what the question is trying to ask. All "art" makes an artistic statement.

Pretty much.

I'd like to ask you, however, what you think DT's artistic statement is.

Making intricate and complex music, from a technical standpoint, while keeping some sort of accessibility, whether by use of melody, hooks, or a good rocking riff.

[lithium112]

This. I'm not trying to dismiss the question, rumby, I just truly don't understand what the question is trying to ask. All "art" makes an artistic statement.

If we agree that all art makes an artistic statement we can still discuss how meaningful it is. When Nickelback rewrites Photograph for the 6th time, is that expression of art as meaningful or significant as a live jazz improvisation? Or Breaking All Illusions? Or Lady Gaga's latest single? Or the guy on the streets drumming on pots and pans?

When I think of an artistic statement, I understand it to be the artists way of expressing something they care about. I think Dream Theater cares about musicianship, progressive song structures and elements and often times the message in the lyrics so I think the majority of their songs make an artistic statement on those counts.

[theseoafs]

Making intricate and complex music, from a technical standpoint, while keeping some sort of accessibility, whether by use of melody, hooks, or a good rocking riff.

That's not a statement at all; that's just something that Dream Theater does. Of course we all agree that Dream Theater does all the things in this list, but a statement would be something that Dream Theater is trying to prove or show, and that's not what you've described here.

If DT went out to create an album with an artistic statement, they would come up with an idea and convey that idea through either A) the lyrics, B) the mood, C) the structure/instrumentation, or D) some combination of the above.

(edited for really, really bad typos)

[Pinga]

Then I guess you're referring to some message they're trying to convey through the music, which is not how I defined artistic statement at all. In any case, it would be cool if OP shared his definition so that we all could be in the same page. 

[Jaffa]

For a fresh perspective on this, I'm going to shift the focus away from music and talk about books.  Bear with me. 

Obviously, literature is an art form.  Therefore, anyone who writes any fiction is technically an artist.  But at the same time, I do believe that there is a definable (if often unnoticeable) difference between a 'writer' and an 'artist'.  In my mind, a writer writes books because they enjoy writing, because they like to tell stories, because they want to be a writer.  An artist, on the other hand, writes books because they have a story to tell, and they want to make sure the whole world hears it.

There's nothing wrong with either of these approaches, and whether a person is a 'writer' or an 'artist' has no impact on how skilled they are at their craft.   In fact, a 'writer' and an 'artist' could theoretically create the exact same story – they'd just have different motivations for doing so.  The writer would be telling the story for the sake of writing, while the artist would be writing for the sake of telling the story.  If that makes any sense at all. 

Just to clarify things a bit with an example, let's say two people write stories about cancer patients.  The first person wrote his story because he felt like writing, and he had an idea about some cancer patients and decided to run with it.  This person is the 'writer'.  The second person's dad died from cancer, and he desperately wanted to express some truth he'd learned from that experience, so he wrote a story about it to express his feelings through art.  This one is the 'artist'. 

See, a 'writer' writes for the sake of the craft itself.  An 'artist' uses the craft to express a message he wants to send – his artistic statement. 

Now, I obviously can't speak for rumborak, but the way I interpret his question is like this: does Dream Theater write music to express themselves, or do they do it because they enjoy playing it?  Are they 'writers' or 'artists' – or, as the case may be, musicians or artists? 


And my answer to the question is a little of both.  I would say there are definitely some songs they wrote and performed just for the sake of writing and performing.  I mean, it's pretty obvious to me that nobody in the band had very strong feelings they needed to express through The Dark Eternal Night – they just thought it would be cool.  On the other hand, something like A Change of Seasons?  I imagine that had an artistic statement. 


/ramble

[theseoafs]

super snip

Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything here. I'd only point out that I add some restrictions on what qualifies as art (for example, in no universe will I permit the Twilight novels to be considered art).

Also, it's interesting to me that you claim a simple writer and a true artist could create the exact same story. I think I disagree; these two people might very well describe the same sequence of events, but I don't think the words will ever come out exactly the same between these two people, just because their motivations are so different. They focus on different things throughout the writing process and as such their writing will focus on certain concepts. This is rather off-topic though.

Also, I'll add the disclaimer that it's mostly modern DT that's missing this artistic statement. Learning to Live, A Change of Seasons, and the like are very artistic and have true messages to them (however cliche they may be). The same cannot be said for Bridges in the Sky and The Dark Eternal Night.

[BlobVanDam]

Also, I'll add the disclaimer that it's mostly modern DT that's missing this artistic statement. Learning to Live, A Change of Seasons, and the like are very artistic and have true messages to them (however cliche they may be). The same cannot be said for Bridges in the Sky and The Dark Eternal Night.

Yes it can. The Dark Eternal Night is no less of an artistic statement than LTL. They're just trying to achieve different things. Whether or not that artistic statement resonates with you personally is your own opinion.

[Pols Voice]

Why are dark, moody, and gloomy bands always considered more artistic?