Does Dream Theater have an artistic statement?

[lumpy33]

Also, I'll add the disclaimer that it's mostly modern DT that's missing this artistic statement. Learning to Live, A Change of Seasons, and the like are very artistic and have true messages to them (however cliche they may be). The same cannot be said for Bridges in the Sky and The Dark Eternal Night.

Yes it can. The Dark Eternal Night is no less of an artistic statement than LTL. They're just trying to achieve different things. Whether or not that artistic statement resonates with you personally is your own opinion.

agreed. 

my interpretation of the OP is for us to discuss whether or not d.t. has a universal message to share with everyone through their music - an artistic statement.  i'm not sure that they have such a message, but i'm certainly glad they're sharing their artistry with us.

[theseoafs]

Also, I'll add the disclaimer that it's mostly modern DT that's missing this artistic statement. Learning to Live, A Change of Seasons, and the like are very artistic and have true messages to them (however cliche they may be). The same cannot be said for Bridges in the Sky and The Dark Eternal Night.

Yes it can. The Dark Eternal Night is no less of an artistic statement than LTL. They're just trying to achieve different things. Whether or not that artistic statement resonates with you personally is your own opinion.

I disagree. I have seen no evidence that the band views the song as anything other than a song about a monster or a pharaoh or something with chunky riffs and a wacky instrumental section. You're free to debate that as you like but TDEN is about as 2-dimensional as DT has ever gotten in my view.

I could draw a red square on a piece of paper and somebody else could say it's a brilliant piece with a strong artistic statement, but there's no artistic statement if I only meant to draw a red square. Whether people take something from my square is up to them; the power of art is a very subjective and personal thing that I won't try to refute or standardize. However, if I truly only meant to draw a square, no "statement" was ever made.

I also think the OP should clarify what "artistic statement" means in this particular case. This will keep us from going at others' throats unnecessarily.

[Jaffa]

Why are dark, moody, and gloomy bands always considered more artistic?

In my experience, 'art' is usually an expression of emotion.  And as a general rule, when a person is happy, they don't really NEED to express that emotion through art - they just go and do whatever it is that makes them happy.  Whereas a person who is in pain needs an outlet for that pain, and often turns to art to express themselves. 

I'm generalizing massively, of course, but in my experience, more art is born from negative feelings than from positive ones.  So it's really only natural that 'art' has connotations of negative emotions, even if it's faulty logic. 

Yes it can. The Dark Eternal Night is no less of an artistic statement than LTL.

As much as I generally love agreeing with you, I'm not sure what your definition of artistic statement could possibly be.  TDEN is heavily influenced by a Lovecraft story.  From what I've heard, it even borrows specific phrases.  So from a lyrical standpoint at the very least, TDEN is less of an artistic statement.  Unless that artistic statement is 'H.P. Lovecraft is cool'.  Which I suppose would be fair enough, but it certainly wouldn't be as meaningful as something like LTL.

(Just as a disclaimer, I have nothing against The Dark Eternal Night.  I think it's a great song.)

[BlobVanDam]

As much as I generally love agreeing with you, I'm not sure what your definition of artistic statement could possibly be.  TDEN is heavily influenced by a Lovecraft story.  From what I've heard, it even borrows specific phrases.  So from a lyrical standpoint at the very least, TDEN is less of an artistic statement.  Unless that artistic statement is 'H.P. Lovecraft is cool'.  Which I suppose would be fair enough, but it certainly wouldn't be as meaningful as something like LTL.

Artistic statement is about the music just as much (I'd argue a lot more so) as lyrics. And musically, nobody can objectively say that TDEN is less of an artistic statement than anything from previous albums. Considering how adventurous that song is for them and how unique it is among the rest of their catalog, I'd say it's definitely making an artistic statement.

[Jaffa]

Fair enough.  I personally feel like TDEN is musically just a riff factory (a very cool one, mind you, but a riff factory nonetheless), but you're right, there's no objective way to measure that. 

[robwebster]

Dear Lord, what does mood have to do with the music being an artistic statement or not?

Basically everything.

For example, Bridges in the Sky is a great song, but it's not about anything of substance. A shaman is described but the lyrics don't serve any higher purpose or communicate any greater message. That's all I mean when I say DT doesn't have any great artistic statement; that is, in their music, DT isn't trying to do anything other than playing fun music.

While it is clear that you and I have different interpretations of what 'artistic statement' is, I still don't get why "fun" music doesn't make an artistic statement, while "sad" music does. Is art only about sad stuff?

As art music goes, it's far easier to be considered arty when there's a dark mood. I think that's the case for most art forms in our postmodern world or post-postmodern world or whatever world it is that we live in. Obviously the happy music can still be art and have an artistic statement to make but it's more difficult.

Very nicely observed - and you've actually kind of hit upon my bugbear, here. I guess it's natural that some forms of art should be perceived to count more than others, but I find it very frustrating. There's this misconception that art is torment, which is, frankly, utter bollocks.

You get these artists, who can waffle on for years about how wonderfully artful they are - Sand Snowman's blog is the one I traditionally go to when I want to reference an artist whose self-conscious arsedribblings fuck me right off, although plenty more exist - but I think that just looks insincere. "many will see the new sand snowman album two way mirror as a 21st century continuation of a tradition which began with artists like the incredible string band and nick drake, and which continued through into syd barrett's finest moments," it uselessly warbles, in lower case, presumably because capitals are far too functional for a free spirit like Sand Snowman. But, no! I'd argue that very, very few will see the new sand snowman album two way mirror as a 21st century continuation of a tradition which began with artists like the incredible string band and nick drake, and which continued through into syd barrett's finest moments. I'd argue that Sand Snowman, with the utmost respect, is talking out of his almighty bunghole. Or his "worldly release," as he'd probably call it in lower case. Many will listen to it and go "ooh, this is nice," a few will go "I don't much care for this," and if he's lucky, a select few will engage with his material on a much deeper, more profound level. And they might barf out something of the ilk, in the same way that enough monkeys with enough calculators will eventually tap out fifteen digits of pi before getting bored and flinging dung at each other. But that's almost irrelevant. By typing like he's on morphine, what sand snowman's really done is he's very carefully constructed the "tortured artist" mask, put himself on a pedestal, and so practically insisted that you see his music on those terms.

The thing is, though they may not, er, "establish a musical cosmos filled with bright wonder," it isn't any easier for Dream Theater to write their brand of music that tugs you in X, Y and Z direction - often all at once - than it is for Sand Snowman to write his that tugs you in A, B and C. They're very down-to-earth guys, (and honestly, accusations of pretentiousness - musically or otherwise - are completely misguided) but just 'cause they don't play at being artists doesn't mean they're not. Beneath the Surface is a more obvious example - how is that any less artful than, say, Porcupine Tree's Blackest Eyes? - but let's take something a little less traditional. Train of Thought, let's say. That's a study. An idea. Variations on a theme. All designed to bring out a very specific emotion - it's got direction, it's evocative, and it does so much more than just glue riffs together. Listen to Stream of Consciousness. It's wistful, it's triumphant, it's haunting - hell, it's even sleazy for a few bars in the middle! Yet it retains its pulse, its anger.

Dream Theater, in short, write journeys. Whisk the listener off on little adventures. They may not milk it, certainly don't play up to the label of artist - and heck, they even put their lyrics in their booklets - but anyone who doesn't think that's art is a fool. And I'm happy to tell them that to their face.

Having an artistic statement is a different question, and one I'm still not quite sure I understand, so I'm not aiming that at anyone here, least of all rumborak. Just airing a little grievance, tangentially relevant.

[Vivace]

I think you need to a bit more specific, especially in the view of "what exactly is an artistic statement? What is the difference between those who are not making an artistic statement vs those who are making one. From the opening post without reading any replies, I find the question too open ended and subjective. For one rap is not art while for another it is. Someone might consider making music only for other musicians as not artistic while others might. Does making music in itself constitute an artistic statement or does there need to be more attached to it? If so then what are the criteria to help us determine what an artistic statement is. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest, but I think there is a lot more that needs to be said about artistic statements before we can honestly answer the question of who has an artistic statement and who doesn't.

[skydivingninja]

I'd have to say that overall, DT isn't really "artsy," but there are some songs that really tug at the emotions or ask questions really well.  "Blind Faith," "Beneath the Surface," "Learning to Live," "Voices," "The Silent Man," "Disappear," and "Far From Heaven" are all very emotionally charged, artsy songs, at least in terms of lyrics.  We're at a slippery slope because we're starting to imply that DT as a whole isn't art or artistic or doesn't have an artists' vision or something which certainly isn't true at all.  As Rob said, not all art, even high art, comes from pain or sadness or whatever, and that some art can just be fun and carefree, which is what DT's music is most of the time.  They're more fans of either taking you through a journey, or exploring social issues, or taking a personal struggle and turning it into a sixty-minute piece of music.  Occasionally though they'll write something that, lyrically, hits you right in the gut, like the songs I mentioned at the beginning.  So yeah, they do have an artistic vision, more or less, its just different to that of Porcupine Tree's, for example, who look at a lot of darker subject matter, or Whitesnake's, who look at tits.

[ThroughHerEyesDude6]

Holy crap you people irritate me...it's called an ARTIST'S STATEMENT. Not an artistic statement. An artistic statement is to make something and plug an artistic label on it on the grounds that it was an artistic expression of something you were feeling. Which is emotionally based, and a completely different entity from which the OP is trying to get to.

A motherfucking ARTIST'S STATEMENT is when an artist declares his vision. He has a set idea for what his art is supposed to convey, relate to, or draw attention upon. As an artist, I have written over a dozen of these in my lifetime, and each one was based on a series of work that I felt had a unified theme or message. Albeit, emotion can have a play in what or how the message gets across, but it should not be confused with a goddamn artistic statement.

A page and a half of this was annoying as hell!

Getting back to what he was originally asking, I think DT has multiple Artist Statements, and each one is a singular album. Nough said.

[lumpy33]

well pardon us, Artsy McArtpants.  nice use of "motherfucking" though.

[TAC]

In my experience, 'art' is usually an expression of emotion.  And as a general rule, when a person is happy, they don't really NEED to express that emotion through art - they just go and do whatever it is that makes them happy.  Whereas a person who is in pain needs an outlet for that pain, and often turns to art to express themselves. 

I'm generalizing massively, of course, but in my experience, more art is born from negative feelings than from positive ones.  So it's really only natural that 'art' has connotations of negative emotions, even if it's faulty logic. 

'Yeah, it is faulty logic. What makes an outlet for pain more artistic than an outlet for happiness?

[theseoafs]

Holy crap you people irritate me...it's called an ARTIST'S STATEMENT. Not an artistic statement. An artistic statement is to make something and plug an artistic label on it on the grounds that it was an artistic expression of something you were feeling. Which is emotionally based, and a completely different entity from which the OP is trying to get to.

A motherfucking ARTIST'S STATEMENT is when an artist declares his vision. He has a set idea for what his art is supposed to convey, relate to, or draw attention upon. As an artist, I have written over a dozen of these in my lifetime, and each one was based on a series of work that I felt had a unified theme or message. Albeit, emotion can have a play in what or how the message gets across, but it should not be confused with a goddamn artistic statement.

A page and a half of this was annoying as hell!

Getting back to what he was originally asking, I think DT has multiple Artist Statements, and each one is a singular album. Nough said.

[Jaffa]

Holy crap you people irritate me...it's called an ARTIST'S STATEMENT. Not an artistic statement. An artistic statement is to make something and plug an artistic label on it on the grounds that it was an artistic expression of something you were feeling. Which is emotionally based, and a completely different entity from which the OP is trying to get to.

A motherfucking ARTIST'S STATEMENT is when an artist declares his vision. He has a set idea for what his art is supposed to convey, relate to, or draw attention upon. As an artist, I have written over a dozen of these in my lifetime, and each one was based on a series of work that I felt had a unified theme or message. Albeit, emotion can have a play in what or how the message gets across, but it should not be confused with a goddamn artistic statement.

A page and a half of this was annoying as hell!

Getting back to what he was originally asking, I think DT has multiple Artist Statements, and each one is a singular album. Nough said.

... So rumborak asks about an artistic statement, and you decide he meant an artist's statement, then get mad at all of us for discussing an artistic statement?  According to your definitions, nothing rumborak said actually points to him talking about an artist's statement...  All you've basically done is assume that rumby made a typo, and then get angry at people for discussing what he actually said.  What if he DID mean artistic statement?  Then haven't you just ranted for no reason at all?  If you misinterpreted rumby's question, your whole point is moot and your anger is wasted and unnecessary. 

Yeah, it is faulty logic. What makes an outlet for pain more artistic than an outlet for happiness?

Nothing.  My point is that people don't generally NEED an outlet for happiness. 

I'm only speaking from my own personal experience as a writer here, so again, I'm generalizing.  But, whenever I've written a happy story, I basically set out to 'write a happy story.'  That was my explicit goal - it wasn't about expressing anything I was feeling.  I just felt like writing, and wanted to try my hand at evoking positive emotions.  Because when I'm HAPPY with my life, that doesn't exactly make me feel like going and writing about it.  It makes me feel like living my life.  Whereas when I'm in pain or feeling sorrow or whatever, that is when I need an outlet, and that's when I end up creating stories that are actually based on my emotions.  In my mind, that's when my stories have 'artistic statements.' 

I think robwebster has made an important distinction that some people need to notice:

...but anyone who doesn't think that's art is a fool. And I'm happy to tell them that to their face.

Having an artistic statement is a different question, and one I'm still not quite sure I understand, so I'm not aiming that at anyone here, least of all rumborak. Just airing a little grievance, tangentially relevant.

There IS a difference between 'making art' and 'having an artistic statement.'  I don't think anybody is saying that what Dream Theater does isn't art at all (at least, I don't mean to say that myself, and I apologize if I've come across that way).  This question is about whether or not they make statements with their art. 

Based on my personal definition of 'artistic statement', if something is written or performed 'for fun,' it does not have an artistic statement.  It's that simple to me.  It's only if the artist is knowingly and willfully trying to express something - be it an emotion or an idea or a vibe or a message or a story or whatever - that they are making an artistic statement. 

When Jordan Rudess played a tribute to Steve Jobs on his iPad, that melody had an artistic statement.

When he made a YouTube video demonstrating the MorphWiz, that melody was just JR showing off his new toy.  And it was extremely cool - but it didn't have a statement to make. 

[lithium112]

Holy crap you people irritate me...it's called an ARTIST'S STATEMENT. Not an artistic statement. An artistic statement is to make something and plug an artistic label on it on the grounds that it was an artistic expression of something you were feeling. Which is emotionally based, and a completely different entity from which the OP is trying to get to.

A motherfucking ARTIST'S STATEMENT is when an artist declares his vision. He has a set idea for what his art is supposed to convey, relate to, or draw attention upon. As an artist, I have written over a dozen of these in my lifetime, and each one was based on a series of work that I felt had a unified theme or message. Albeit, emotion can have a play in what or how the message gets across, but it should not be confused with a goddamn artistic statement.

A page and a half of this was annoying as hell!

Getting back to what he was originally asking, I think DT has multiple Artist Statements, and each one is a singular album. Nough said.

lol, I like how you call out your credentials as an "artist". You must certainly know what you're talking about then.

OP put the phrase artistic statement once in his answer and once in the title of this thread. Also, since an artist's statement is clearly a concrete thing (e.g. an actual statement) there's no point in discussing whether DT has one or not, since they've either written one or haven't. So I think you're incorrect in your assessment of what we should be discussing.

Also, don't be mad. Be glad!

[ThroughHerEyesDude6]

lol, I like how you call out your credentials as an "artist". You must certainly know what you're talking about then.

OP put the phrase artistic statement once in his answer and once in the title of this thread. Also, since an artist's statement is clearly a concrete thing (e.g. an actual statement) there's no point in discussing whether DT has one or not, since they've either written one or haven't. So I think you're incorrect in your assessment of what we should be discussing.

Also, don't be mad. Be glad!

I'm glad now, but obviously not when I typed it. My mindset was incorrectly comparing 2D studio art to music, and that's where I got confused. My credentials as an artist do not extend to the creation of music, and for that it's best that I keep my mouth shut before I get ban'd.

... So rumborak asks about an artistic statement, and you decide he meant an artist's statement, then get mad at all of us for discussing an artistic statement?  According to your definitions, nothing rumborak said actually points to him talking about an artist's statement...  All you've basically done is assume that rumby made a typo, and then get angry at people for discussing what he actually said.  What if he DID mean artistic statement?  Then haven't you just ranted for no reason at all?  If you misinterpreted rumby's question, your whole point is moot and your anger is wasted and unnecessary. 

Yep, pretty much. Next time I'll check my sources. Thanks for calling me out. (No bullshit)

...well, not anymore anyway, haha.

well pardon us, Artsy McArtpants.  nice use of "motherfucking" though.

I don't always use my MF bombs, but when I do- I don't capitalize.

[lithium112]

I'm glad now, but obviously not when I typed it. My mindset was incorrectly comparing 2D studio art to music, and that's where I got confused. My credentials as an artist do not extend to the creation of music, and for that it's best that I keep my mouth shut before I get ban'd.

hm, sorry I came off a bit harsh in my post. Anyway, I don't think you'll get banned here for stuff like this. That's not really how the mods roll.

[Gorille85]

To the OP: Not at all.

[orcus116]

I'm sorry, but what makes Opeth or Porcupine Tree more of an artful statement than Dream Theater?

I certainly can't speak for others but to me just from the music alone it sounds like bands like Opeth and Porcupine Tree got together to really craft something unique whereas Dream Theater, as Outlaw I think pointed out, seems to write music for their own pleasure. I hate to use the word careless because it isn't quite right but the records Dream Theater produces seem to come off more out of pure fun of the band members without much of a thought about the cohesiveness of the finished product, which isn't to say they don't care about it but it seems a bit slapdash at times (ie: lyrics and album covers). On the flipside the other two bands are working to create an entire package and seem to take what they're doing a bit more seriously. A great example is that quote Akerfeldt had during the beginning of writing Heritage where he mentioned how they had written two songs that sounded that old school Opeth fans would love but they felt wasn't testing them enough and scraped them. That's a ballsy move I'd attribute to someone who cares deeply about their art and its perception. I could never see Dream Theater just straight up scrap two songs because it wasn't fitting whatever sound they wanted or wasn't challenging them enough.

That in a nutshell is how I view artistic statements.

[Gorille85]

I agree with that! Good points.

[ThroughHerEyesDude6]

Total props, TAC.

As much as I adore the music DT paints, it can feel less cohesive than Opeth or PT. Artistic values can vary from band to band, and you executed that very well with these examples.

@Lithium,

No worries, man. Every now and then I go to the zoo. I'm just glad I came back.

[LudwigVan]

I think what you have to keep in mind when comparing certain bands to DT is the absolute singularity of Opeth's and Porcupine Tree's artistic vision.   These 2 bands each have one main driving force (in Akerfelt and Wilson, respectively) that work to create a sense of unity and continuity within the music.   The atmosphere and mood is much more consistent, allowing the artistic statement to come across more clearly and forcefully with bands like Opeth, Porcupine Tree and Pain of Salvation.  The individuals in these bands in particular exercise a vise-grip on the 'artistic' direction taken and musical choices made.

The 'slapdash' nature that orcus refers to probably comes in part from the fact that DT didn't quite have that one personality driving the whole (artistically speaking), but rather having contributions coming from several.  Not that this is a necessarily a bad thing... there are many fans that would consider this a strength of DT music.   

[rumborak]

I'm sorry, but what makes Opeth or Porcupine Tree more of an artful statement than Dream Theater?

I certainly can't speak for others but to me just from the music alone it sounds like bands like Opeth and Porcupine Tree got together to really craft something unique whereas Dream Theater, as Outlaw I think pointed out, seems to write music for their own pleasure. I hate to use the word careless because it isn't quite right but the records Dream Theater produces seem to come off more out of pure fun of the band members without much of a thought about the cohesiveness of the finished product, which isn't to say they don't care about it but it seems a bit slapdash at times (ie: lyrics and album covers). On the flipside the other two bands are working to create an entire package and seem to take what they're doing a bit more seriously. A great example is that quote Akerfeldt had during the beginning of writing Heritage where he mentioned how they had written two songs that sounded that old school Opeth fans would love but they felt wasn't testing them enough and scraped them. That's a ballsy move I'd attribute to someone who cares deeply about their art and its perception. I could never see Dream Theater just straight up scrap two songs because it wasn't fitting whatever sound they wanted or wasn't challenging them enough.

That in a nutshell is how I view artistic statements.

Perfectly encapsulated my perception on this. Thanks!

rumborak

[Ravenheart]

I guess I've never really ruminated too deeply about what kind of "artistic statements" bands try to convey with their music. Like Sigz said, I'm not sure I even know how to define something so broad. I can appreciate various intentions of music composition, whether it's a statement on society or an anecdote about getting tipsy in da club.

[AtmosphericV]

This is my way of breaking it down:

I always felt that DT had two sides to them. The artsy/deep side and the fun/spontaneous side.

The "artsyness" was there very much when Moore still was in the band. When Sherinian entered you could feel the band was more on the fun side. And then when Jordan joined even more so. But the band still has very much the combination of both, which I find quite unique.

When I started listening to DT, this was the thing that bothered me most. A very "artsy" or moody section could be followed by a crazy section, obviously made from pure musical exitement(metropolis f.i.).
In many songs, different sections like these are combined together and make this weird mix. And when I listened to it I realized that I had to take it for what it is, a mixture, or else I could never enjoy it.

And thats what it is, a mix of artsy music and fun music, so what is the result? A Crazy mix.

thank you all!

[johncal]

Personally if there is some type of overlying artistic statement it would be to use your talents to their greatest ability, not hold back and see how tremendous the results can be. Don't woory about the invariable criticism that may follow and just keep going. The rewards are then in how much you can affect and change others lives for the better.

At least that's what I get out of it.

[PixelDream]

I think SDOIT is their most convincing artistic statement, on that one they really branched out in a lot of different areas. Experimenting with textures in their music, you can really hear that on the first disc. It really packs a whole lot more/different than just 'regular' DT prog metal.

Which is what they're doing right now with ADTOE again. It's very well done but I can't see the appeal of the music for non-DT fan. As a DT fan, I recognize the return of a lot of their elements, but it's waaaay too generic prog-metal sounding to be an 'artistic statement'.

[Locke]

Yeah, it is faulty logic. What makes an outlet for pain more artistic than an outlet for happiness?

Nothing.  My point is that people don't generally NEED an outlet for happiness. 

I'm only speaking from my own personal experience as a writer here, so again, I'm generalizing.  But, whenever I've written a happy story, I basically set out to 'write a happy story.'  That was my explicit goal - it wasn't about expressing anything I was feeling.  I just felt like writing, and wanted to try my hand at evoking positive emotions.  Because when I'm HAPPY with my life, that doesn't exactly make me feel like going and writing about it.  It makes me feel like living my life.  Whereas when I'm in pain or feeling sorrow or whatever, that is when I need an outlet, and that's when I end up creating stories that are actually based on my emotions.  In my mind, that's when my stories have 'artistic statements.' 

It's all opinion, but I've seen a lot of people write a painful story just to write a "painful story" and it doesn't mean much to me. Without knowing happiness, one might not understand pain, and vice versa. I've been truly touched by "happy stories", but of course it's tied to the extreme pain or suffering one has to go through to get that happiness. Or vice versa, with someone who was once so happy, but then loses everything.

Some people live in an unfortunate situation during most of their lifetime, so writing something that has made them extremely happy for once could be a big "statement." But I guess, generally speaking, most people / movies / stories / musicians find it easier to create an "outlet" for sorrow/ pain. I just don't believe one emotion is more important than the other (not saying that you were implying that.)

But going back to the whole "Artistic statement" (or whatever the right term is lol), I'm not sure if I think differently if DT did have an artistic statement or not with certain songs or all their songs as a whole. Their art inspires my art, whether they are talking about something serious, or just made it for the heck of it. I don't think I have much to contribute like the posts before, but I agree with this:

I have almost no idea what 'artistic statement' really means, but I'm inclined to say no. Not that it matters as long as the music is enjoyable.

[Super Dude]

I'd have to agree with the "music geeks writing music for music geeks" theory. Not that I have any problem with that. If I want music from someone with an artistic statement, I turn to my pals Steve Wilson and Kev Moore.

[Progmetty]

Dream Theater's artistic statement is "Haha I bet you can't do this"

[Gorille85]

Dream Theater's artistic statement is "Haha I bet you can't do this"

Lol pretty much.