A Change of Seasons (vs) Octavarium: Explain your choice.

[Vajra]

I'm sure this thread has been done before, but even so, it hasn't been done in a long time. And since there's a ton of new members now, I think it deserves a re-awakening.

My choice: ACOS. I'll explain why tomorrow or so, I'm a bit tired now.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

ACOS

Both are top 10, and it's hard to choose.

I can't really explain it to be honest.

[TheGreatPretender]

I would say A Change Of Seasons for one very simple reason: Vocals.
Musically, they're both amazing. And I might even say Octavarium is a bit better. But A Change Of Seasons has much more poetic lyrics and much more beautiful vocals and is a lot more fun to sing along with.

[Mosh]

Octavarium.

It's my favorite song of all time. However Seasons wins the prize for sounding like one song for 20+ minutes. That's pretty impressive.

[Vajra]

I would say A Change Of Seasons for one very simple reason: Vocals.
Musically, they're both amazing. And I might even say Octavarium is a bit better. But A Change Of Seasons has much more poetic lyrics and much more beautiful vocals and is a lot more fun to sing along with.

I was actually thinking today about the lyrics in ACOS, and how they really prove that lyrics can add so much to a song. Fucking beautiful lyrics, probably the best DT lyrics to date. It really creates that epic and emotional atmosphere that makes the song such a joy to listen to. If every DT song had these kind of lyrics... my god, I'd be a happy man.

[BlobVanDam]

Octavarium easily for me. ACOS is a great song, but I rarely listen to it, and it's missing the magic of Octavarium. ACOS has nothing as good as the Razor's Edge solo / outro. And it's also got that great Moog/keyboard solo by JR in the middle.

For me it's-
ACOS - 8/10
Octavarium - 9/10

[TheGreatPretender]

I was actually thinking today about the lyrics in ACOS, and how they really prove that lyrics can add so much to a song. Fucking beautiful lyrics, probably the best DT lyrics to date. It really creates that epic and emotional atmosphere that makes the song such a joy to listen to. If every DT song had these kind of lyrics... my god, I'd be a happy man.

The delivery is a huge part of it too. It gets melancholy, but remains strong. And when it kicks into like, "I'm sick of all you hypocrites," it still gives me an adrenalin rush.

[Jaffa]

A Change of Seasons by several miles. 

I'm not going to explain what I like so much about ACoS, because going down that road could take a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time. 

As for Octavarium, I do love the song.  And let me say this: if I could rank just the second half of 8VM as an individual song, that individual song might beat ACoS.  I think that the instrumental section between Medicate and Full Circle is glorious, Full Circle itself is amazing, Intervals is one of the greatest climaxes in the history of music, and Razor's Edge is a perfect way to wind it down to completion.  I'm just not as in love with the first two sections of the song.  I still enjoy them, don't get me wrong.  And the intro of Someone Like Him is definitely great.  I just feel like they aren't nearly as strong as the second half of the song, and end up dragging down my overall opinion of the song a little bit. 

Basically, when I listen to Octavarium, I'm sorta biding my time through the first two sections, just waiting for 12:15 to arrive and the musical bliss to really begin.

Whereas with ACoS, the whole song captures my rapt attention from intro to outro. 

[nattmorker]

Octavarium for me, the flute in the intro (my girlfriend is a classically trained flautist, so i'm biased) the instrumental section and the epic outro define the match for me. A love ACOS though.

[Riceball]

A Change of Seasons: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=13491.msg1054297#msg1054297

Octavarium: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=13491.msg1081441#msg1081441

[Metrovarium]

Octavarium easily for me. ACOS is a great song, but I rarely listen to it, and it's missing the magic of Octavarium. ACOS has nothing as good as the Razor's Edge solo / outro. And it's also got that great Moog/keyboard solo by JR in the middle.

For me it's-
ACOS - 8/10
Octavarium - 9/10

I agree with this almost entirely. I don't really listen to ACOS that much, even though I really like the song when I do listen to it. Something about Octavarium gives me the urge to listen to it every few days or so.

[Syzzle]

Octavarium easily for me. ACOS is a great song, but I rarely listen to it, and it's missing the magic of Octavarium. ACOS has nothing as good as the Razor's Edge solo / outro. And it's also got that great Moog/keyboard solo by JR in the middle.

For me it's-
ACOS - 8/10
Octavarium - 9/10

Pretty much this for me except
ACOS - 9/10
Octavarium - 10/10

[black_biff_stadler]

ACOS for me. I like its intro a hell of a lot more than 8VM's since it's more actual music than Continuum "atmospheres" like so much of what turns me off in other songs I otherwise love like Pink Floyd's Echoes (noise section after the middle groove not the intro), TCOT, etc. I also think the riffs in general are much better in ACOS and the song has a much more enjoyably coherent flow to it as well. After six years I'm finally beginning to like 8VM after having trouble even making it through its entirety before that, so the future is bright as I hope to like it more and more but for now ACOS' cuisine reigns supreme.

[MK_Ultra]

Octa, pretty easily. ACOS has never felt like one song (which seems to go against popular opinion?) while 8VM doesn't drag in any of its glorious 24 minutes. 8VM is so much more of a 'journey' for me, while ACOS sounds almost cobbled together, and ACOS' highs (I love you... goodbye) aren't anything like up there with Octavarium's (Medicate, the ~13 minute mark keyboard solo, the Full Circle verses and the whole of Intervals).

[?]

My favorite DT song vs the most overrated DT song... ACOS wins easily; better lyrics (not that 8V has bad lyrics, they just can't touch ACOS lyrics), better flow, no sections that drag on. I'd rate ACOS 10/10 and Octavarium 8 (nuggetz!) or 7 out of 10.

[black_biff_stadler]

Octa, pretty easily. ACOS has never felt like one song (which seems to go against popular opinion?) while 8VM doesn't drag in any of its glorious 24 minutes. 8VM is so much more of a 'journey' for me, while ACOS sounds almost cobbled together, and ACOS' highs (I love you... goodbye) aren't anything like up there with Octavarium's (Medicate, the ~13 minute mark keyboard solo, the Full Circle verses and the whole of Intervals).

The first 3:48 of 8VM don't drag on but ACOS does Just curious as to what your criteria for "dragging on" is. Not nitpicking either, honestly curious.

[Pols Voice]

ACOS, and it's not even remotely close. It's my third favorite DT song. I have NO clue why people love Octavarium so much. It just doesn't work for me.

[Zydar]

ACOS, and it's not even remotely close.... I have NO clue why people love Octavarium so much. It just doesn't work for me.

Pretty much this. Octavarium doesn't really grab me as much as ACOS.

[Nofire]

Octavarium for me. IMO, it has a flow to it that ACOS doesn't have. I also feel that listening to the track tells a story musically that ACOS, once again IMO, doesn't. That doesn't mean that ACOS is a bad song, but I think Octavarium is just one of the best songs to ever have been put out. By anyone.

[namgalsipsclar]

Octavarium easily. ACOS is a great song and still top 5, but Octavarium is the best thing ever written

[matt1722]

Wow this was a Really tough one, But I went with "A Change Of Seasons" I love both songs and they're both probably in my top ten, but "A Change Of Seasons" edges out "8V" in the lyrics department IMO.

Also I'd like to add if "ACOS" had been on Images And Words as Originally planed, it would have edged out Scenes From A Memory as my favorite DT album and possibly my favorite album of all time.

[BlobVanDam]

ACOS, and it's not even remotely close. It's my third favorite DT song. I have NO clue why people love Octavarium so much. It just doesn't work for me.

Go and listen to Razor's Edge and then tell me you can't figure it out. That to me far exceeds any part of ACOS.

I find that ACOS has much better lyrical continuity and flow, especially as Octavarium doesn't intend any as far as I can tell. It's a couple of unrelated stories, then some random juxtaposition of name dropping, then a summary of the album. So obviously ACOS is going to connect a lot more emotionally for a lot of people, having a very personal story behind it.

But I find Octavarium has much better musical flow. I know what you're thinking - "BlobVanDam, you crazy". But just hang on for a sec. Octavarium is sort of like 5 or so big musical sections that aren't related, kind of stuck together. But musically, these sections flow into each other pretty well for me. And for a 24 minute song, these few transitions are pretty well spaced apart, and done well.
ACOS on the other hand, feels like dozens of little musical sections stuck together, and while they mostly flow pretty well, I find it a lot more jarring for the emotion of the music, because it doesn't build as long on each section.

Obviously both approaches can work equally well or badly, as it comes down to the specific song. But for these two songs specifically, Octavarium does it better than ACOS imo.
Of course, I'm talking musically here, as I value that much more than lyrics. Lyrically, I won't at all argue that ACOS trumps Octavarium. Different strokes.

[Pols Voice]

It's a couple of unrelated stories, then some random juxtaposition of name dropping, then a summary of the album.

That's my biggest problem with it.

[BlobVanDam]

It's a couple of unrelated stories, then some random juxtaposition of name dropping, then a summary of the album.

That's my biggest problem with it.

Completely understandable. The Full Circle random lyrics really annoyed me when I first heard the song, and lyrically the song is pretty random. Maybe there's some super secret nugget connecting the lyrics, although I'm pretty sure it's just random stuff, but I'm ok with that.

[m0hawk]

A Change of Seasons
To have created a song like this so early in a band's career is respectable. There are some truly great moments - everything up to and including the Another World guitar solo is fantastic. That said, the instrumentals following that are pretty "meh", tacked on almost like an afterthought. Let's get one thing straight: ACOS has the best lyrics of any DT song. And when you have JLB doing lyrics like that at the top of his game, some of those moments are chill-inducing. If this song was re-worked and all the excess fat removed, it would be an easy top 10.

Octavarium
To me, this song is just far and above every other DT song. It's on the highest plane of musical existence all by itself. The atmosphere and magic that this song creates is second to none. And when you remember that Octavarium references so many things both lyrically and musically, and to have that all together in one little 24 minute package is quite phenomenal. The intro itself is so wonderfully moody, I'm just ensnared from the get-go each time. Next, we have the acoustic + flute section of Someone Like Him. Music just does not get better than that. Medicate puts me into such a serene state each time; anyone who condemns DT as being emotionless certainly hasn't listened to Medicate. There is one thing I find "meh" about Octavarium: Full Circle's verse. Love the instrumentals surrounding it, but the music and vocals of the actual verse ("Sailing on the seven...") is pretty standard. EVERYONE loves Octavarium's climax, which JLB absolutely nails in the Score version (that scream actually makes me cum). And finally, the most majestic finale to a prog song: Razor's Edge. It's not just grandiose... it's saturated with emotion. The backing orchestra really breathes life into JP's solo.

No contest for me really. Octavarium is DT's masterpiece. I genuinely feel like a better person with that song in my life 

[GunsOfThePatriots]

ACOS . it has that vibe . sherinian work . i have an emotional attachement to that song (especially the LFNY rendition)

OCTAVARIUM is good too but for ME it can't beat ACOS

[Jirpo]

ACOS for me, everything about it is just so beautiful... I can see why someone would pick 8VM but I just don't feel that 'magic' that a lot of you feel about it.

[Cruithne]

ACoS. Emotionally it's just a lot more resonant. MP outdid himself, lyrically speaking, with this one.

[jsem]

3. ACOS
4. 8VM

It's really close. I guess it comes down to the fact that I feel a bit indifferent about Razor's Edge - yeah shoot me. That brings down the average level of 8vm quite frankly, while ACOS never really loses it. Oh yeah, ACOS also has one the best DT solo sections ever.

[ZirconBlue]

ACoS, for me.  It's not even close.  Octavarium has two fatal flaws from my perspective:  The intro (too long and too monotonous), and the disconnected nature of the lyrics.  But, even if you fixed those two things, it still wouldn't approach ACoS's greatness.  ACoS is pretty much the perfect song, IMO (although I with the "Please! Don't! Go!" had made it onto the studio version).

[namgalsipsclar]

I guess ACOS has better lyrics, but for me lyrics is just about the least important thing in a song, so it doesn't really come into my decision

[KevShmev]

A Change of Seasons.

It is awesome from start to finish.  While I like all of Octavarium (I don't think the beginning drags on too long like some people do), I don't really start to love it till JR's solo about halfway through kicks in.  ACOS, again, slays for the entire 23 minutes plus.

As far as sections go, Another World from ACOS is easily the best section from either song, with The Darkest of Winters slaying just about everything else as well. 

[kirksnosehair]

My choice (ACOS) is based mostly on the song itself, although I believe the lyrics are also superior.  I have never understood the amount of gushing that many Dream Theater fans do when it comes to Octavarium.  The album appears at or near the bottom of the catalog in order of preference for me, and the song is something I rarely listen to.  I've always found it to be a very patched-together thing with very jarring and abrupt changes that make it feel like a bunch of shorter tracks were just stitched together to create it, I've never felt that when listening to ACOS

[Dream Team]

ACOS is a moving epic about an extremely emotional, life-changing event. The lyrics are great and the music supports them perfectly. OV on the other hand is about . . . what, exactly? At least 3 different lyrical threads in there, which makes it much more difficult to connect with on an emotional level.

Aside from that, purely on a musical level I still think ACOS wins.

[?]

It's a couple of unrelated stories, then some random juxtaposition of name dropping, then a summary of the album.

That's my biggest problem with it.

This, along with the overlong intro.