A Change of Seasons (vs) Octavarium: Explain your choice.

[lumpy33]

ACOS.  i saw them perform it live on a small outdoor stage at some summer festival in upstate ny somewhere around '93ish i think.  nobody knew what to think when they were finished playing it.  my friend and i were blown away but there was only a smattering of applause from the crowd, and james got pissed.  he said something like, "come on, people - we just played our asses off for 20 minutes.  let me fucking hear it!" 
8V just doesn't seem as epic.

[senecadawg2]

ACOS is the best song I've ever heard. It is a beautiful musical journey with highs and lows, like a roller coaster. To think that one song could convey so much emotion is beyond incredible. The first day that i seized the day, I bought the song I listened to it about 20 times. I almost cried, shouted, jumped, smiled, and frowned all within the song. It transported me to another world. For me, I know it will never get old. I'm not sure if there is anything close to this special to me. Octavarium is a top 7/8 song. Great/awesome whatever... Still can't touch ACOS.

[7thHanyou]

I'm picking a Change of Seasons, not because I enjoy listening to it more (I don't), but because it stands out to me as more of a Dream Theater epic, and a bit more well-crafted.

The thing about Octavarium is the music is brilliant, but it's quite obviously derivative.  It's designed this way, and I wouldn't change much about it; I love every moment of it!  But by wearing its influences on its sleeve, I think it's a bit lacking in individual identity.  Another "problem" is the lyrics.  They're not bad, but they're certainly not an emotional tour de force.  They're just sort of there.  That segment toward the end that's a series of homages to other bands and musicians is cool, but I also feel like it's a flaw.  As awesome as it is to hear a Spock's Beard album namedropped in a Dream Theater song, I would rather have seen something else.

The payoff is amazing, and it's hard to complain about the song, but when compared with their other epics, I think it just falls a bit short in both distinctness and emotion.

A Change of Seasons is quite different.  There's the obvious: in contrast to Octavarium's bright sound, it's dark and dreary most of the way through.  It's much harder-hitting, and also much, much more personal.  This is the most important distinction.  Octavarium tells five different stories from a fairly resigned point of view; there are nods and winks at the listener throughout and little personal investment.  A Change of Seasons betrays so much vulnerability that it can be a crippling experience if you really invest yourself in it.  Lyrically, these types of songs are often the best, and this one stands with Kansas' The Pinnacle thematically.  It's just that powerful.

I prefer to listen to Octavarium.  I think A Change of Seasons is better.  There's really nothing I can add to that.

[j]

ACoS by a fair margin.

Octavarium is a good song.  Quite a bit overrated on these boards, but it's definitely a top 10 or 15 DT song.  Still, I can understand why so many people consider it DT's magnum opus, and it has to at least be in the discussion.  My one major disagreement is with regard to the Razor's Edge solo: it's okay, but it's not very innovative or emotive at all IMO, and it's not anywhere near a top Petrucci solo.  Both ACoS solos are much better, for that matter.

ACoS has a weird transition or two, but the music is incredible and I don't really have the time or desire to try to explain all the reasons why.  But I will say that as much as I like his drumming, I think the lyrics of ACoS were Mike Portnoy's single greatest contribution to the band.

-J

[SnakeEyes]

A Change of Seasons by far, for many reasons:

-  it flows better, musically
-  I like the mix and sound a lot more
-  it has an atmosphere that really gives you the feeling of "seasons changing"
-  the concept of the song is more interesting
-  the lyrics are better written


These are just my opinion. 

added..

-  oh yeah, and Change of Seasons doesn't have that pointless keyboard solo (like Octavarium) that goes on..... and on..... and on.... and on......

[Öxölklöfför]

ACOS, because I think that every second of it fills a purpose. Compared to Octavarium, that I think have an unnessecary long intro. Feels almost like it's added to make the song lengthy.

[energythief]

ACOS. I really don't think Octavarium is that great.

[SnakeEyes]

ACOS, because I think that every second of it fills a purpose. Compared to Octavarium, that I think have an unnessecary long intro. Feels almost like it's added to make the song lengthy.

Yeah, that keyboard solo in the beginning is awful.  That solo, alone, makes Change of Seasons better.  I don't understand the significance of that part at all.  It serves no purpose..... it's like, "OK, can get please get on with the SONG now?"

[jingle.boy]

Octavarium for me.  Just so many little intricate pieces stitched together brilliantly.  Agreed, it doesn't "flow" perfectly, but that's part of what I like about it.  Love how it builds up to an epic climax with the guitar solo.  Within DT's entire song catalog, it has the best guitar solo, best keyboard solo, and best instrumental break.

It was close, ACoS has a ton of great moments, but 8vm by a small margin.

[Neuth]

Octavarium by quite a bit for me. I've listened to ACOS a quite a few times to try and "get" what everyone is loving about it, but it just sounds kind of average to me. One thing that always bugged me was the vocal melodies. I can't speak for the whole song, but a lot of the melodies seemed arbitrary to me, they just don't seem to go anywhere, and never really captured me. Octavarium on the other hand, is musical genius.

[PixelDream]

I think Octavarium flows better and is more epic. I think ACOS is more special and more true to the DT style.

I voted for Octavarium, but I'm glad ACOS wins this poll.

[Nick]

Their two best songs I think. To me A Change of Seasons is their progressive metal masterpiece and Octavarium is their progressive rock masterpiece. At the end of the day I give the edge to Octavarium.

[senecadawg2]

Within DT's entire song catalog, it has the best guitar solo, best keyboard solo,

Just my opinion... but I don't think the razor's edge solo even deserves to be in the discussion for the best guitar solo. It is one of Petrucci's more emotional solos, but better than the extended hollow years solo L@B? Heck, while I'm at it, throw Lines in the Sand, ITNOG, TSCO, Another Day, Voices, Peruvian Skies, Scarred, UAGM, and Take the Time into this discussion as well.
Not trying to bash your opinion. Mine is just very different...

Also, as some others have said: i consider ACOS to be much stronger lyrically (my favorite MP lyrics of all).

[Snow_Dog]

ACoS easily. Maybe it's partly because it was one of the first songs I heard by them, but it's also much more than that. The whole carpe diem / seize the day thing means a lot more to me than 8VM's lyrics, and when "I sit down with my son, set to see the crimson sunset" comes on I STILL get goosebumps, regardless of how many times I've listened to it. Even when I was phasing out of DT after SC and BCaSL (not anymore), I still listened to that song enough. It's one of my favourite songs of all time.

Regardless, 8VM is still in my top 10 DT songs. The Score performance brought it to a whole new level of epic, and Razor's Edge is one of JP's most memorable solos.

[Scrub206]

I choose 8VM.  as much as I love ACoS, I feel that 8VM was a better written piece and overall better musicly. I absolutly love the idea behind the whole song . 8VM gives me more chills and goose bumps than ACoS is what it really all boils down too xD

[weezul]

Octavarium for me. IT just sounds more pleasing to my ears. The chords and key changes and instrumentation and melodies and... ururghhghgmmm its just really realllly nice

[Millais]

Octavarium. - nuggetz

[Locke]

Very difficult ... I voted Octavarium because I like how it has such a buildup. Both do, but I definitely feel it more in Octavarium. Lyric-wise ... I don't mind both. though the random name / word thing in Octavarium still throws me off sometimes.

[orcus116]

"A Change Of Season" comes off as a very well thought out piece that flows organically and clearly the bi-product of a band in their prime constantly tweaking their work, seeing what works and what doesn't work. Even though some sections contrast with each other they still sound like pieces of a same puzzle and join together very well

"Octavarium" comes off as a clearly piecemeal work whose sections seem to only exist to prolong the song. Just the way the song builds and climaxes is so typical prog metal grandiose it can come across as sterile and unauthentic. Some of the sections are very fun, don't get me wrong, but as a whole it clearly comes across as being not necessarily a rush job but more of a "hey let's make another really long epic" and this is what they came up with in a few weeks. Once it was recorded they were done, no aging needed to see if the song really held up. They did get lucky but it does show how that same process doesn't quite work on later attempts at making long songs.

[Art]

A Change of Seasons over Octavarium every day, especially in the winter when the right mood is set, to me it feels like a winter song, but that is not relevant. I think A Change of Seasons is better than Octavarium on every level, the lyrics is far better, the text is really emotional, the instrumental is better, And it have one of my favourite part of music ever. The Crimson Sunset.

That.

ACOS is amazing. *.*

[carl320]

I feel that 8VM is a more cohesive track.  ACOS has a lot of good parts but is clunky, with too many musical ideas that make no sense together.  The way 8VM is arranged makes it feel like it's supposed to be one long song.  Returning musical ideas, a slow build to a climactic ending, lyrics that can be looked at as telling a story... that's why I like 8VM better.

Edit:  And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate 

[snapple]

"A Change Of Season" comes off as a very well thought out piece that flows organically and clearly the bi-product of a band in their prime constantly tweaking their work, seeing what works and what doesn't work. Even though some sections contrast with each other they still sound like pieces of a same puzzle and join together very well

"Octavarium" comes off as a clearly piecemeal work whose sections seem to only exist to prolong the song. Just the way the song builds and climaxes is so typical prog metal grandiose it can come across as sterile and unauthentic. Some of the sections are very fun, don't get me wrong, but as a whole it clearly comes across as being not necessarily a rush job but more of a "hey let's make another really long epic" and this is what they came up with in a few weeks. Once it was recorded they were done, no aging needed to see if the song really held up. They did get lucky but it does show how that same process doesn't quite work on later attempts at making long songs.

[Jaffa]

And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate 

Speaking of this, could someone tell me which section this keyboard solo actually belongs to?  Is it meant to be the end of Medicate or the beginning of Full Circle? 

[carl320]

I think it's technically a part of Full Circle but am not certain.

[BlobVanDam]

And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate 

Speaking of this, could someone tell me which section this keyboard solo actually belongs to?  Is it meant to be the end of Medicate or the beginning of Full Circle? 

I'm not sure if there's an official word on this, put I consider it part of Full Circle, since it starts a new section that continues smoothly into Full Circle.
But that's just my own opinion on the matter.

[theseoafs]

And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate 

Speaking of this, could someone tell me which section this keyboard solo actually belongs to?  Is it meant to be the end of Medicate or the beginning of Full Circle? 

I'm not sure if there's an official word on this, put I consider it part of Full Circle, since it starts a new section that continues smoothly into Full Circle.
But that's just my own opinion on the matter.

That's how I categorize it too. I don't believe any official timestamps have been released.

[Syzzle]

And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate 

Speaking of this, could someone tell me which section this keyboard solo actually belongs to?  Is it meant to be the end of Medicate or the beginning of Full Circle?

It's technically the end of Medicate, even though I think most people here would consider it part of Full Circle.

[Jaffa]

Any evidence?  Not trying to argue, just curious because the three before you all said Full Circle. 

[i am fabio]

And how could I forget that keyboard solo after Medicate 

Speaking of this, could someone tell me which section this keyboard solo actually belongs to?  Is it meant to be the end of Medicate or the beginning of Full Circle?

Ive never thought about it once and really dont care in the least....lol not to sound like an ass, it sounds worse when typed.

[Neuth]

Any evidence?  Not trying to argue, just curious because the three before you all said Full Circle.

The only evidence I can think of is in Jordan Rudess' "Dream Theater Keyboard Experience" book, which has the solo as a part of Medicate, and Full Circle starting at the end of it at 13:49. I'd say it's pretty strong evidence seeing as Jordan pretty much co-wrote the book, but like most everyone is saying, it does feel like the start of a new section.

[JustinVK]

A Change of Seasons is structured perfectly and the concept of the song is displayed through every instrument so perfectly where as Octavarium is a bundle of influences and synth that although sounds great, just doesn't compare to A Change of Seasons.

[Elite]

7. Octavarium
3. A Change of Seasons

[Jaffa]

The only evidence I can think of is in Jordan Rudess' "Dream Theater Keyboard Experience" book, which has the solo as a part of Medicate, and Full Circle starting at the end of it at 13:49.

Oh, alright.  Didn't know about that.  Thanks very much for bringing it up!

[Dublagent66]

ACOS.  I just think it's a better piece of music.  The JP solos are in the David Gilmore category of awesomeness.  Don't get me wrong though, 8VM is very well done also but ACOS edges it out by a few notches.

[GuineaPig]

Both are overrated songs.  I go with ACOS.