How do you feel about the band's "spiritual" side?

[m0hawk]

Dream Theater, to me, sounds like a Christian band that decided to go full on prog/metal  . Really, that's the vibe I get from the band. Not necessarily limited to just Christianity (seeing as the members are a mixture of Catholics, Jews and Christians), but rather a band that has welcomed and incorporated their different religions into their music. Some might find it a tad cheesy, but I personally enjoy songs in the vein of The Spirit Carries On, The Ministry of Lost Souls, and even In The Presence of Enemies (which, at the end of the day, has a pro-Christian message with all the overcoming of temptation thingamabobbies). This embracing of religion is found not only in their lyrics; their music, at parts, has an almost heavenly/transcendent vibe (guitar swells section in The Count of Tuscany, those beautiful final 2 minutes of The Ministry of Lost Souls). Even the present line-up's behaviour in the interviews and whatnot shows how gentle and at peace they are, which is possibly a result of their religions. Obviously, there is the other side to that coin, where people use their religion to enact violence (lol ITNOG geddit?? roffle NUGGETZ)

Now, I'm not trying to start a debate on whether their religious beliefs make them better musicians or even people. I'm completely fine with whatever beliefs you hold; no qualms about it. But as a Christian, it's nice to see 5 religious men make phenomenal music for once, you know? (let's face it, Christian music isn't exactly amazing  )

What do you feel about all of this? Do you like this facet of the band or do you find it cheesy?

[hefdaddy42]

There is nothing remotely Christian about The Spirit Carries On or The Ministry of Lost Souls.

[BlobVanDam]

I feel that it is not really an aspect, so it does not bother me.

[robwebster]

I think it's very much up to the reader to project that interpretation upon it. I'm not religious, myself, so I tend to see The Spirit Carries On as a plot-point, rather than a message, but art's about seeing yourself reflected into it, and if that's what important to you then you're absolutely right to interpret it in that way.

They're certainly not a secular band - there's a lot of triumph and victories of spirit, but I think the imagery is non-specific. I can totally see how Surrounded, for instance, could be interpreted in a Christian way by a Christian listener, but to me it's more a triumph of humanity. If God's where you put faith, it's a song about God. If you put faith in humanity, it's a song about humanity. It's ambiguous enough that you can project whatever form you want onto it. Which I quite like. I've never thought about it, but I like it. Likewise, ItPoE isn't pro-Christian to a non-Christian listener - it's a song about vanquishing your demons, with a couple of pseudobiblical winks chucked in for flavour. That's not religious, to me, that's literary. Quotes or not, I've never thought of it as a religious song - not even questioned it - and I suppose that's a bit weird, isn't it? But again, if Christianity is how you conquer your demons, then hey! It's about Christianity!

That's DT, though! DT all over. They tend to sketch in a form, but leave the details a little more hazy - which gives the listener free reign to take from it whatever they want. Surrounded (to come back to it, as it's a good example) can mean something completely different from person to person, conjuring up different images based on the listeners' different dispositions. Actually, I really like that. Good thinking point!

[Liberation]

Personally I've just always perceived them as thinking Christians, who follow religion but aren't oblivious to what's wrong with it, In The Name of God being the key example. And it's an attitude I always appreciate very much.

[Perpetual Change]

As far as I know, John P and Mike M are both Roman Catholic. John Myung is Christian as well, but I think he's a different denomination. James is a fundamentalist Christian turned deist. And Rudess... jewish?

[hefdaddy42]

I don't know that any of them are really Christian per se.  The only current member I've heard say anything about their faith and how important it is to them is Mangini, and he hasn't contributed any lyrics or songwriting.  JR and MP are Jewish.  I know that JP was raised Catholic, but I have no idea if he is currently practicing or how seriously he takes it now, although some of his lyrics (such as Lines In The Sand) display at least some struggle in that area.

I also know that JLB seems to be more generally spiritual, rather than specifically Christian.  At least, based on some of the interviews I've read and heard.

I also know that at one time, JM was asked who was the historical figure who was most influential to him (or something along those lines), and he answered "Jesus Christ."  That doesn't necessarily mean he is a traditional Christian, and no such leaning has ever come across in any of his lyrics, either.

I also really like robwebster's answer.

[nikatapi]

To be honest i don't pay that much attention to the lyrics (not counting some bad lyrics which are so bad that can draw the attention) so i haven't really seen this aspect in DT. I think only ITNOG addresses directly some religious stuff but more in a critical point of view.
Other than that, i think it is only spiritual stuff and questions we all make to ourselves at some point.

[m0hawk]

I think it's very much up to the reader to project that interpretation upon it. I'm not religious, myself, so I tend to see The Spirit Carries On as a plot-point, rather than a message, but art's about seeing yourself reflected into it, and if that's what important to you then you're absolutely right to interpret it in that way.

They're certainly not a secular band - there's a lot of triumph and victories of spirit, but I think the imagery is non-specific. I can totally see how Surrounded, for instance, could be interpreted in a Christian way by a Christian listener, but to me it's more a triumph of humanity. If God's where you put faith, it's a song about God. If you put faith in humanity, it's a song about humanity. It's ambiguous enough that you can project whatever form you want onto it. Which I quite like. I've never thought about it, but I like it. Likewise, ItPoE isn't pro-Christian to a non-Christian listener - it's a song about vanquishing your demons, with a couple of pseudobiblical winks chucked in for flavour. That's not religious, to me, that's literary. Quotes or not, I've never thought of it as a religious song - not even questioned it - and I suppose that's a bit weird, isn't it? But again, if Christianity is how you conquer your demons, then hey! It's about Christianity!

Good pick-up there about ITPOE. While it may very well be about conquering demons in general, as a Christian, I see it as resisting temptation from Satan. In the Bible, Satan tells Jesus that he will give him all the power in the world if he bows down and worships him. Seeing that similarity made me think that ITPOE was very loosely based around that idea. Of course, to someone who has never heard of that story, ITPOE would mean a completely different thing.

And with regards to TSCO, that can be linked to the Hindu or Buddhist (possibly?) belief of reincarnation.

[hefdaddy42]

The lyrics from ITPOE are lifted from the graphic novel Priest.

[BlobVanDam]

ITPOE is based on a comic book. Any religious connotations have nothing to do with JP's religious beliefs. Not to mention the part about dark masters and powers and zombies or something.

And although TSCO is about reincarnation, I don't get any particular religious vibe from it. Reincarnation is as much an element of fantasy as religion, and it's just part of the SFAM story, and not being explored in any religious way through the course of the album.

[John94]

As long as they make good music, then I wouldn't care if they were demon-spirit raisers.

[Areola]

As long as they make good music, then I wouldn't care if they were demon-spirit raisers.

This!

[senecadawg2]

Justifying violence
Citing from the Holy Book
Teaching hatred
In the name of God

This sounds pretty anti-religious

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

Justifying violence
Citing from the Holy Book
Teaching hatred
In the name of God

This sounds pretty anti-religious

That's about people who do bad things, like kill, and use their religion as an excuse to justify it.

[Jamesman42]

Justifying violence
Citing from the Holy Book
Teaching hatred
In the name of God

This sounds pretty anti-religious

No. They are talking about people who use religion (God's will!!!1) to do bad things.

[ElliottTamer]

I would actually say that I Walk Beside You is their more clearly Christian song. I fully agree with everything robwebster said.

Personally I've just always perceived them as thinking Christians, who follow religion but aren't oblivious to what's wrong with it, In The Name of God being the key example. And it's an attitude I always appreciate very much.

Hmm, I thought this was a song about Muslims and terrorism... ("Listen when the prophet speaks to you/ Killing in the name of god" seemed to me to be referring to the polemic verses in the Quran about the jihad)

I also know that at one time, JM was asked who was the historical figure who was most influential to him (or something along those lines), and he answered "Jesus Christ."  That doesn't necessarily mean he is a traditional Christian, and no such leaning has ever come across in any of his lyrics, either.

I don't think you have to be Christian to appreciate what Jesus (as a fictional character or a real person) managed to achieve. Though a non-Christian myself, his influence on the world for the past 2000 years (which we started counting with his birth/theoretical birth), his self-sacrifice and desire to improve human society are very inspiring to me, just as Muhammad's unifying the Middle East (or at least considerable part of it) is an impressive feat. Many people seem to get lost on the wrong things religions do and fail to see that there is much of value in them...

[senecadawg2]

Justifying violence
Citing from the Holy Book
Teaching hatred
In the name of God

This sounds pretty anti-religious

That's about people who do bad things, like kill, and use their religion as an excuse to justify it.

Which has happened enough times throughout history that its not altogether unlikely that they aren't just bashing organized religion in general. Without organized religion those 'bad things' wouldn't happen the way they do.

[hefdaddy42]

I would actually say that I Walk Beside You is their more clearly Christian song.

That's a song about JP's relationship with his wife.  It isn't religious, it just uses religious terminology to signify the depth of the relationship.

[ElliottTamer]

Justifying violence
Citing from the Holy Book
Teaching hatred
In the name of God

This sounds pretty anti-religious

That's about people who do bad things, like kill, and use their religion as an excuse to justify it.

Which has happened enough times throughout history that its not altogether unlikely that they aren't just bashing organized religion in general. Without organized religion those 'bad things' wouldn't happen the way they do.

Hmm,  I don't think that's quite right. The criticism is not aimed at religion because it is used as justification for bad things, but at people who use religion as justification for bad things. Then again, that's probably just me mirroring my views on DT's songs...

I would actually say that I Walk Beside You is their more clearly Christian song.

That's a song about JP's relationship with his wife.  It isn't religious, it just uses religious terminology to signify the depth of the relationship.

Thanks for this bit of information, that song has just become a lot more lovely for me.

[darkshot]

To those who say DT's lyrics aren't very deep or engaging: looking at this thread it looks like there's a lot of people who misunderstand many of the lyrics.  It seems like they did a good job of disguising these songs as being pro-religion when they actually mean something totally different. (and not necessarily anti-religion either)

[wammabe]

The Spirit Carries on is not the same when you listen to the entire album, the Ministry of Lost Souls is placed on an album where all or most songs are fantasies. There are other songs that are related to, but not necessarily pro-religion, like In The Name Of God, and maybe Scarred. Plus, not all the members in Dream Theater are Christian.

[Jamesman42]

I would actually say that I Walk Beside You is their more clearly Christian song.

That's a song about JP's relationship with his wife.  It isn't religious, it just uses religious terminology to signify the depth of the relationship.

I remember you answering this same basic question to me on the Octavarium board 5 years ago

[Metabog]

I do get that feeling sometimes, and could do without it, but it's not my band and they can write about whatever they want.

If you want a band that caters to Agnostics/Atheists, go for Nevermore. <3

[CrimsonSunrise]

Nothing wrong with spirituality, just don't force feed me a specific "Religion"

[ReaPsTA]

[DT member religions]

- Rudess said JP is a practicing Catholic.  I remember reading it and being semi-surprised.

- I don't know to what extent JR is jewish.  Obviously he feels connected to the religion (his Israeli trips are always a big deal to him), but I don't know beyond that.

- I agree that calling LaBrie "generally spiritual" is most accurate.

- While I'd bet good money that Mangini's Catholic, I've never seen this confirmed anywhere.  He's the one who said "God first" though, which says a lot about his attitude.

- This is the closest thing I could find to really getting into JM's view of religion in a meaningful way:

Lyrically, that was a real therapeutic song for me. It deals with ego and my perception of it and understanding how it can cage you and really alter your perspective, but then realizing that life is really short so you need to make a decision. You also need to learn how to deal with regret while still moving forward. There´s one line that talks about, ´you´re not much better than the man you hate.´ That´s pretty much a play off one of the commandments "Love thy enemy". You know, "Open up, you´re not the only person here." Also, my view of heaven being here today and not some distant galaxy, but based upon how centered and conscious you are will I affect your experience and your perception. Understanding that is a really hard thing to do. It´s just a whole bunch of different things that I was going through, just put into a song.

https://www.mpomerle.com/Dt/JM_BF.shtml

As for religion and the band's music, I'd say it's rarely if ever explicitly advocated, but the band member's religious views (particularly Petrucci's) are a major part of the music.

The Spirit Carries On is the least subtle example.  If you look at it purely in terms of the plot, it deals with reincarnation, which has nothing to do with Catholicism.  But the song doesn't really emotionally focus on that.  It's more about the idea of joyfully seeing that there is life after death, which is crucially important to Catholicism.  So while the lyrics aren't exactly about Catholicism, they reflect that kind of view of the world.

I would actually say that I Walk Beside You is their more clearly Christian song.

That's a song about JP's relationship with his wife.  It isn't religious, it just uses religious terminology to signify the depth of the relationship.

Yep.

And that's why DT has been able to handle religion in their lyrics very well.  I can't actually think of a single bad example.  Even if you're not religious, your brain/sense of self thinks of things in spiritual terms.  DT's able to talk about these issues in a way that merges their genuine experiences (JP's struggles with and celebration of religion/MP's spiritual reinvention through AA) with the experiences of the audience through not advocating their specific beliefs.  It's something a lot of people could learn from.

[Elaitch]

Seems like most of the christian connections can be explained otherwise.

As for the proposed christian references in the music, that's very much your opinion and can not really be treated as a sign that the members are religious.

Also, ItPoE does definitely not have a pro-christian message as such. There's never anything said about the protagonist being torn between a "good" and an "evil" side; there's only himself and a dark master. It's also never implied that he uses his faith (in God) to break free or anything like that, but he uses his inner strength. Besides, in the Bible, Jesus never gave into the temptations, did he? The protagonist in ItPoE actually gives himself up to the dark master, to break free later on. It could rather be interpreted as a reference to "Faust" by Goethe in that sense. In the end, it's more of a celebration to the strength within every human to control their own life and fight against giving in to supernatural beings, without any belief in God being mixed in. Quite secular to me.

Ultimately, I actually like DT's spritual side, it gives some spice to the lyrical content.

[Gorille85]

Sometimes the religious lyrics bugs me but it's rare in DT.

[Marion Crane]

I'm really surprised no one has mentioned Blind Faith yet.

[GasparXR]

I'm really surprised no one has mentioned Blind Faith yet.

I just happen to be listening to it. Also, I never really looked into the lyrics of The Greate Debate, but I argue it has some things to do with religion. For example, stem cell research was banned in the States because of the "lol abortion" groups who were very clearly religious.

I think it's very much up to the reader to project that interpretation upon it. I'm not religious, myself, so I tend to see The Spirit Carries On as a plot-point, rather than a message, but art's about seeing yourself reflected into it, and if that's what important to you then you're absolutely right to interpret it in that way.

They're certainly not a secular band - there's a lot of triumph and victories of spirit, but I think the imagery is non-specific. I can totally see how Surrounded, for instance, could be interpreted in a Christian way by a Christian listener, but to me it's more a triumph of humanity. If God's where you put faith, it's a song about God. If you put faith in humanity, it's a song about humanity. It's ambiguous enough that you can project whatever form you want onto it. Which I quite like. I've never thought about it, but I like it. Likewise, ItPoE isn't pro-Christian to a non-Christian listener - it's a song about vanquishing your demons, with a couple of pseudobiblical winks chucked in for flavour. That's not religious, to me, that's literary. Quotes or not, I've never thought of it as a religious song - not even questioned it - and I suppose that's a bit weird, isn't it? But again, if Christianity is how you conquer your demons, then hey! It's about Christianity!

That's DT, though! DT all over. They tend to sketch in a form, but leave the details a little more hazy - which gives the listener free reign to take from it whatever they want. Surrounded (to come back to it, as it's a good example) can mean something completely different from person to person, conjuring up different images based on the listeners' different dispositions. Actually, I really like that. Good thinking point!

I really loved this post. All of this.

[The Silent Cody]

I think that John, John, Mike, James and Jordan are guys who love their families very much, and that is the most important thing to Them. I always admire them for that. That shows Them from the spiritual side. About the lyrics, I Walk Beside You comes to my mind now...

[GasparXR]

I think that John, John, Mike, James and Jordan are guys who love their families very much, and that is the most important thing to Them. I always admire them for that. That shows Them from the spiritual side. About the lyrics, I Walk Beside You comes to my mind now...

Endless Sacrifice too. They clearly have amazing families, who continually support them as they're away from home touring for us. They don't just sacrifice for the band, it's for all of us too, in a way. So I have the utmost thanks for them.

[ReaPsTA]

Also, ItPoE does definitely not have a pro-christian message as such. There's never anything said about the protagonist being torn between a "good" and an "evil" side; there's only himself and a dark master. It's also never implied that he uses his faith (in God) to break free or anything like that, but he uses his inner strength. Besides, in the Bible, Jesus never gave into the temptations, did he? The protagonist in ItPoE actually gives himself up to the dark master, to break free later on. It could rather be interpreted as a reference to "Faust" by Goethe in that sense. In the end, it's more of a celebration to the strength within every human to control their own life and fight against giving in to supernatural beings, without any belief in God being mixed in. Quite secular to me.

Ultimately, I actually like DT's spritual side, it gives some spice to the lyrical content.

I'm not sure about that:

'Lord,
You are my god and my shepherd
Nothing more shall I want
Walk,
Through the abyss
Into the shadow of death

Fear,
There is no evil to fear now
For I know you are with me
My,
Cup overflows
With my enemy's blood

I,
Decay in the house of the lord
Forever, amen
Death,
Will follow me
All the days of my life"

While it's maybe not pro-Christian per-se, it's a specifically Christian literary/emotional viewpoint.  What you choose to do with that as a listener is up to you though.

[snapple]

Jordan has confirmed that JMX is a Christian and is very open about his views.
John Petrucci is a practicing Catholic
Jordan is Jewish
James LaBrie has never said he wasn't a Christian. He has said before he was, but his lyrics on his solo album "Elements of Persuasion" suggest he may be more of a deist. However, nothing conclusive.

[lonestar]

Since day one, I have always appreciated the spiritual side of DT's music, and by spirituality I'm not referring to organized religion, but to the relationship one's own soul has with the world around it.  Being currently in a process that is helping me develop my long neglected spiritual side, I find many aspects of their music very fulfilling, and not just the lyrics.  I rely on music a lot for refuelling my spiritual side, Yes being my main source, and can always count on DT for a good dose too.  But then again, spiritality of music is only what you make of it, how you relate to it, and what you are REALLY willing to let that deep into you.