Awake = #1 album?

[Slain]

Tastes innit.

[orcus116]

I love when people attack the older lyrics words like "cryptic" always pop up, as if even attempting real poetry somehow automatically makes the lyrics worse. Every time someone thinks or writes that they should take a good hard serious look at the lyrical attempts of the last decade. I mean it. Sit down, really look at them and go "yeah, this stuff is acceptable". I just can not fathom how some people can shrug off truly complacent attempts of writing lyrics but slam those that actually have some substance and meaning behind them because they're a little abstract.

[Ħ]

I love when people attack the older lyrics words like "cryptic" always pop up, as if even attempting real poetry somehow automatically makes the lyrics worse. Every time someone thinks or writes that they should take a good hard serious look at the lyrical attempts of the last decade. I mean it. Sit down, really look at them and go "yeah, this stuff is acceptable". I just can not fathom how some people can shrug off truly complacent attempts of writing lyrics but slam those that actually have some substance and meaning behind them because they're a little abstract.

Orcus, I don't think you've backed up anything you've said in this thread with actual example.

[orcus116]

Because that's not how I argue. Plus looking at how you've responded to TOX it's pretty clear it wouldn't matter anyways.

Examples would do no good in this case because I'm trying to convey a feeling that is just so common sense and logical to me that it's hard to really describe using time stamps and lyrical passages.

[Aramatheis]

stuff

Orcus, I don't think you've backed up anything you've said in this thread with actual example.

Oh it's on now.

[ricky]

11.  Space-Dye Vest - The only song on the album I really don't like at all.  

*all sassy like*

oh no you didn't.

[Ħ]

Because that's not how I argue. Plus looking at how you've responded to TOX it's pretty clear it wouldn't matter anyways.

Examples would do no good in this case because I'm trying to convey a feeling that is just so common sense and logical to me that it's hard to really describe using time stamps and lyrical passages.

How is this post supposed to convince anyone (let alone me)?

[orcus116]

Because it's painfully obvious you're not going to let up until you hear exactly what you want, whatever that is. So I didn't explain the way you wanted with charts and time stamps because this isn't freakin' debate club. I've spoken my piece exactly the way I wanted to present it so I'd opt to just drop the whole thing. I seriously couldn't add any more if I wanted.

[King Postwhore]

Some albums don't click like others and this is one.  I like it but it never bowled me over like I & W.

[ricky]

Because that's not how I argue. Plus looking at how you've responded to TOX it's pretty clear it wouldn't matter anyways.

Examples would do no good in this case because I'm trying to convey a feeling that is just so common sense and logical to me that it's hard to really describe using time stamps and lyrical passages.

How is this post supposed to convince anyone (let alone me)?

just to debate your point, I have actually read through all of your posts, and I just don't see the correlation between why you would open a thread asking "Awale = #​1 DT album?" and then debate all of the relevant points that people make without supporting your OP without any evidence. I mean, orcus made a good point, and if you're going to debate that point, at least give some reasons why.

[Hal Incandenza]

Because that's not how I argue. Plus looking at how you've responded to TOX it's pretty clear it wouldn't matter anyways.

Examples would do no good in this case because I'm trying to convey a feeling that is just so common sense and logical to me that it's hard to really describe using time stamps and lyrical passages.

How is this post supposed to convince anyone (let alone me)?

Hell, I'm not sure how anything said by anyone in this thread is going to convince anyone of anything.

The thread would have been better if it had ended after the first reply.

[contest_sanity]

The thread would have been better if it had ended after the first reply.

If you google Tastes innit, the 4th hit is this thread

[Ħ]

Because that's not how I argue. Plus looking at how you've responded to TOX it's pretty clear it wouldn't matter anyways.

Examples would do no good in this case because I'm trying to convey a feeling that is just so common sense and logical to me that it's hard to really describe using time stamps and lyrical passages.

How is this post supposed to convince anyone (let alone me)?

just to debate your point, I have actually read through all of your posts, and I just don't see the correlation between why you would open a thread asking "Awale = #​1 DT album?" and then debate all of the relevant points that people make without supporting your OP without any evidence. I mean, orcus made a good point, and if you're going to debate that point, at least give some reasons why.

Okay.  

First off, this claim:

it is the only album they've made that is actually sincere in its seriousness and on a critically respectable level

Really?  The only one?  Yes, I agree with you that it is serious, I agree with you that it is sincere, and I agree that it is critically respectable.  People here are getting the idea that I don't like Awake.  Let me make this clear, I love Awake.  But it seems like a lot of the pro-Awake people like it more because of how it compares to other albums and stands out, rather than liking it for what it is separate from the rest.  In other words, it seems like a lot of the Awake love comes from external dislike of other albums, rather than genuine like for what Awake really is.  This relates to your claim, because your claim is, in fact, a comparison, in the sense that you used the word "only" the way that you did.

Awake doesn't really have an eyeroll factor the way most of their other albums do.

Umm......."until the circle breaks, and wisdom lies ahead"? "Mother Mary quite contrary?"  The album is chock-full of eye-roll factors.  And by the way, again you magnify Awake by pissing on the other albums.

In fact, I'm not even going to quote the rest of that post since it is basically a piss on the other albums.

I love when people attack the older lyrics words like "cryptic" always pop up, as if even attempting real poetry somehow automatically makes the lyrics worse.

Aside from the sarcastic quip, you assume I haven't looked at the lyrics.  Let's run through an example, shall we?  Good ol' Innocence Faded...possibly the most "cryptic" lyrics you'll get.

"Animation breathes a cloudless wine.  Fascination leaves the doubting blind."  Ok, neat little double rhyme, neat rythym.  But the lyrics make no sense.  John Petrucci is not God and I would bet money that he just pulled that out of his ass.

"Until the circle breaks and wisdom lies ahead, the faithful live awake, the rest remain misled."  Still no sense.

"Some will transcend spinning years, one as if time disappears."  Yep, no meaning.

Et cetera.

Look, there's a difference between being a lyrical Charles Darwin, writing beautiful prose in a meaningful manner, and being someone who just schlops a bunch of words together to sound profound.  I don't mean that the song's meaning has to be obvious, but honestly there ought to be at least some extractable meaning or it just comes across as pretentious.  The Count of Tuscany's lyrics are better than Innocence Faded's.

[contest_sanity]

Upon just a couple minutes of reflection:

Animation
breathes a cloudless mind
Actually doing something makes the mind clear

Fascination
leaves the doubting blind
Whereas simply pondering something makes you completely blind in your doubt

Until the circle breaks and wisdom lies ahead
until life ends and it's clear what wisdom really is

the faithful live Awake
the faithful do their best to live

the rest remain misled
and the rest are led astray

so I don't think these lyrics are impenetrably cryptic (whether I'm on the right track or not)

[ricky]

Tastes innit.

[orcus116]

Really?  The only one?  Yes, I agree with you that it is serious, I agree with you that it is sincere, and I agree that it is critically respectable.  People here are getting the idea that I don't like Awake.  Let me make this clear, I love Awake.  But it seems like a lot of the pro-Awake people like it more because of how it compares to other albums and stands out, rather than liking it for what it is separate from the rest.  In other words, it seems like a lot of the Awake love comes from external dislike of other albums, rather than genuine like for what Awake really is.  This relates to your claim, because your claim is, in fact, a comparison, in the sense that you used the word "only" the way that you did.

Listen, champ, you did leave out my very next sentence in which I said the other albums are fun to listen to. That in and of itself is a perfectly fine quality of an album. I only compare Awake's seriousness in that it's the only album I personally feel is on another level, one where you can analyze its intricacies and find some really fascinating stuff. TOX did a better job of explaining the meat of that part.

In fact, I'm not even going to quote the rest of that post since it is basically a piss on the other albums.

Only lyrically. Don't put words in my mouth.

Look, there's a difference between being a lyrical Charles Darwin, writing beautiful prose in a meaningful manner, and being someone who just schlops a bunch of words together to sound profound.  I don't mean that the song's meaning has to be obvious, but honestly there ought to be at least some extractable meaning or it just comes across as pretentious.  The Count of Tuscany's lyrics are better than Innocence Faded's.

There's more than two ways about it, dude. You're making is seem as if when someone tries some fancy wordplay they're probably getting a bit full of it and their work suffers. That's almost getting a bit anti-intellectual, especially with the bolded part. You're taking away from the fact that back then Petrucci, Portnoy and Moore actually did have talent with the pen or at least took some time to hone their craft, Moore even still showcasing it in his projects. Those lines from IF might appear a bit abstract and whatnot but nothing has made me laugh out loud in public than the first time I heard "ALL THE FINEST WINES IMPROVE WITH AGE". If you're going to counter with a song at least pick a song where the tone of the lyrics match the tone of the music.

[Ben_Jamin]

You have to look at it this way...Kevin Moore wasn't really into it, and you can tell by his playing. It doesn't have the heart and feel of Images and Words, in that cd you can tell he is enjoying himself. The songs on Awake sound dark because of that.

  That is why I see some ranking it as their best, as I do. But its not my favorite.

[bosk1]

To take Orcus' example in this post:  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=23027.msg881330#msg881330 as Empire Strikes back.  Lots going on that you can really latch onto, and despite a few lame parts, the audience goes, "Yeah, I can relate to most of that."  Despite the fact that there were a few things I thought were off, 90% of it had me wanting to stand up and cheer.

The remaining posts are like...the Teletubbies trying to re-enact the prequels.  Just beyond unabashed fail to the highest degree.

[Ħ]

To take Orcus' example in this post:  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=23027.msg881330#msg881330 as Empire Strikes back.  Lots going on that you can really latch onto, and despite a few lame parts, the audience goes, "Yeah, I can relate to most of that."  Despite the fact that there were a few things I thought were off, 90% of it had me wanting to stand up and cheer.

The remaining posts are like...the Teletubbies trying to re-enact the prequels.  Just beyond unabashed fail to the highest degree.

If by "remaining posts" you mean orcus's remaining posts.

[orcus116]

Pffft, don't act like you wouldn't wanna see Teletubbies and Star Wars together in a magnum opus.

[RuRoRul]

Bottom line is, there are no real shiners, no Learning to Live's, no Octavarium's, and the only two that could possibly qualify have extremely blehhh sections (Scarred) or are at the bottom of the barrel of DT's epics (Voices).

As for the other songs...

6:00 : Fun song, not really anything special.
Caught in a Web: Arguably the worst DT song.
Innocence Faded: *yawn*
The Silent Man: Eh, it's ok but nothing special.
The Mirror: Unique song, but not really a shiner.  Middle of the road at best.
Lie: Awesome riffage, but the rest of the song is not that great.

That's like, half the album right there.

Only redeeming factors are Erotomania, Voices, two minutes of Scarred, and SDV (and arguably not even that).  Compare with Octavarium, for example, which has the title track, These Walls, The Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons...pretty much flawless songs all the way through...and arguably Panic Attack and The Answer Lies Within.

Going on like this though is as though you're just expecting everyone to automatically agree with your opinions, which lots of people clearly do not. I agree with you that Awake doesn't have any song that stands out as much as songs from other albums, and that Voices, while a great song, is one of the weakest of DT songs like it. But Cuahgt In A Web being the worst song, Scarred having terrible sectios, aetc. just because you think that it isn't really evidence. Someone could do that with any DT album, like the one you say has flawless songs.

The Root Of All Evil : Fun song, not really that special.
Sacrificed Sons: Scraping the bottom of the barrel of DT's epics
These Walls: Eh it's Ok, nothing special
The Answer Lies Within: *yawn*
Panic Attack Unique song, but not really a shiner Middle of the road at best
Never Enough: Arguably DT's worst song.
OCtavarium: Cuould be a shiner but has extremely blehhhh sections.

Now I don't agree with those (or at least all of them) but it's pretty feasible that someone could think that. Just because they do though, it doesn't make them saying it an undisputable fact, and that everyone has to judge the album based on their opinions of the songs.

[Ħ]

I hear you.   I guess I just don't get.  Everyone is hearing the same song, and assuming everyone's ears are working properly, I don't see how we come to such different conclusions unless there is some type of phycological trickery involved, such as the mental "I-like-Awake-because-it's-different" thing that has arisen for whatever reason.

[Perpetual Change]

I don't get DT fans who don't like Awake. That album, at least to me, really represents the band firing on all cylinders. Sure, some of the hunger they had in them on Images and Words is gone (if there are weak points, they're mostly in the form of Kevin's contributions), but on the flipside you can also hear that some important lessons have been learned, and the cheesiest aspects of Images and Words have been shelved. And you could tell they didn't care at all about having a hit this time around, either. Awake is definitely the Dream Theater fan's Dream Theater record. I can understand it not being some people's number 1 album, or in the top 3, but any fan who doesn't at least have it (and Images and Words) in their top 5 is nuts.

Stuff that's changed since Awake:

--James, to me, is about the same. A lot of fans swear by his Awake and Live at the Marquee performances, but honestly I don't think it's all that. James' voice may have thinned a bit since Awake, but I'd say most of his studio performances since then have been just as good, just in different ways.
--John's gotten alot better, and I know I'm not alone in thinking that his solos on the last couple albums especially have been some of the best things about them. Unfortunately, his literary talent has "withered."
--Myung's not as present, which is a shame.
--Rudess is just better than Kevin. Everyone acts like Kevin was most tasteful or something but I want to pull my hair out every time I hear those fucking pitch bends on Awake. Jordan doesn't write lyrics, but Kevin's lyrics were really hit or miss. Lie is an awful song. Sadly Rudess does have a few less "win!" moments per album than Kevin did.
--I guess we'll see about Mangini!

[bosk1]

Awake is definitely the Dream Theater fan's Dream Theater record. I can understand it not being some people's number 1 album, or in the top 3, but any fan who doesn't at least have it (and Images and Words) in their top 5 is nuts.

I think a more accurate statement is:  Any fan who thinks their way of viewing a particular song or album is the only correct way and everyone who thinks differently is "nuts" is a presumptuous dick.

[Perpetual Change]

Awake is definitely the Dream Theater fan's Dream Theater record. I can understand it not being some people's number 1 album, or in the top 3, but any fan who doesn't at least have it (and Images and Words) in their top 5 is nuts.

I think a more accurate statement is:  Any fan who thinks their way of viewing a particular song or album is the only correct way and everyone who thinks differently is "nuts" is a presumptuous dick.

Good thing I never said my way is the only "correct" way.

Also, that burns. That reminds me of this one thread where someone said "Anyone who thinks gays are sinners is a bigot" and got banned for it.  But I digress... 

[bosk1]

But I digress... 

Yes, you do.

[Ħ]

Anyone that says Awake is not the best album is a bigot.

amidoinitrite?

[contest_sanity]

Anyone who thinks dicks are gay is a sinner.

[Perpetual Change]

Anyone that says Awake is not the best album is a bigot.

amidoinitrite?

But Images is the best???

[AcidLameLTE]

When I was awake today, I ate a chicken's albumen.

[Perpetual Change]

Seriously though Hayden (I'm just checking out the actual posts in the thread now), if you think Innocence Faded isn't about anything you should read into it more deeply. ToX provided an interpretation of that song that just slayed me awhile back, when I'm pretty sure I was posting things similar to what you are about Awake's lyrics.

[Ħ]

Anyone that says Awake is not the best album is a bigot.

amidoinitrite?

But Images is the best???

You bigot, you.

Everyone knows that SDOIT is the best them.

Wait....I guess that makes me a bigot too.





Hooray for bigots!

[KevShmev]

I hear you.   I guess I just don't get.  Everyone is hearing the same song, and assuming everyone's ears are working properly, I don't see how we come to such different conclusions unless there is some type of phycological trickery involved, such as the mental "I-like-Awake-because-it's-different" thing that has arisen for whatever reason.

[Elsydeon]

Anyone that says Awake is not the best album is a bigot.

amidoinitrite?

But Images is the best???

You bigot, you.

Everyone knows that SDOIT is the best them.

Wait....I guess that makes me a bigot too.





Hooray for bigots!

Oh Christ there is so much bigotry in this thread! I definitely don't rate awake as their best, in my opinion anyone that rates awake as the best DT album is a bigot. Because Falling into Infinity is clearly the greatest DT album ever created.

[Raoul Sanchez]

I hear you.   I guess I just don't get.  Everyone is hearing the same song, and assuming everyone's ears are working properly, I don't see how we come to such different conclusions unless there is some type of phycological trickery involved, such as the mental "I-like-Awake-because-it's-different" thing that has arisen for whatever reason.

Welcome to the wonderful world of opinions. Now until you provide empirical evidence yours is the correct opinion...