Awake = #1 album?

[TheOutlawXanadu]

That said, Awake's main difference is the lack of bombast, which is what the band excels in. It is a nice change of pace.

Absolutely. It seems odd that one of the favourite albums is the one that doesn't play to their strengths at all. It's a bit like putting a lovely horse in a dog show. Or getting a talented accountant to work as a gym teacher. I'm sure they could both do fantastic jobs - I'd love to see a brilliant horse ace a dog show - but why?

I'm kind of confused. Alright, so Awake isn't bombast and flamboyant like most DT. Even if those things are usually the band's strengths, if they do something else well, then why not?

Are you saying that on Awake, DT didn't do subtle stuff well, or that you just don't like subtle stuff in the first place?

[robwebster]

That said, Awake's main difference is the lack of bombast, which is what the band excels in. It is a nice change of pace.

Absolutely. It seems odd that one of the favourite albums is the one that doesn't play to their strengths at all. It's a bit like putting a lovely horse in a dog show. Or getting a talented accountant to work as a gym teacher. I'm sure they could both do fantastic jobs - I'd love to see a brilliant horse ace a dog show - but why?

I'm kind of confused. Alright, so Awake isn't bombast and flamboyant like most DT. Even if those things are usually the band's strengths, if they do something else well, then why not?

Are you saying that on Awake, DT didn't do subtle stuff well, or that you just don't like subtle stuff in the first place?

Neither.

I'm saying that on Awake, Dream Theater aren't playing to their strengths. I'm not saying it's not very well done - it's a dead well composed album - but it seems a bit odd for them to be off teaching gymastics when they're clearly more comfortable accounting.

Essentially, when they put out Images & Words, it was instantly the best in its genre. Nobody can write technical progressive metal better than Dream Theater, which is probably why they're the flag-flyers for the genre. The broodier stuff, I'd argue, they did a very good job at writing with Awake, but it's hardly them in their element. Which isn't a notch against the band, it just makes it the idea that it's a fan favourite a little unusual. It's like the fans of an olympic pole-vaulter going "look how well he swims!"  It's not wrong to be impressed with his swimming, but it seems a bit of an odd choice for the main attraction.



I did think it was a dodgy analogy as I was writing it, though, so I may now be defending the indefensible. I just thought of "a lovely horse in a dog show" and wanted to use the line.

This is a discussion that is only occurring because I liked the phrase "lovely horse."

[Aramatheis]

I find LaBrie's singing to be extremely enjoyable on Awake. The songs have a darker mood to them (which I like). I AM A HUGE FUCKING FAN OF THE MIRROR! That song is just fucking fantastic.

I love popping this CD in the car and just blasting it and singing along. Also, the tunes are super catchy. 6:00, Caught In A Web, Innocence Faded, Scarred, Voices, Lie, Space-Dye Vest, The Mirror are all great songs to sing along to and enjoy.

It may not be their best album, but it is one of their best.

[RuRoRul]

Essentially, when they put out Images & Words, it was instantly the best in its genre. Nobody can write technical progressive metal better than Dream Theater, which is probably why they're the flag-flyers for the genre. The broodier stuff, I'd argue, they did a very good job at writing with Awake, but it's hardly them in their element. Which isn't a notch against the band, it just makes it the idea that it's a fan favourite a little unusual.

Alternatively, if you see Awake as them being out of their element, then someone who prefers them "in their element" has a load of albums to choose as their favourite, where as someone who prefers the style of Awake only has one, since they never did that again.

Also Awake is a huge favourite on this forum, but I don't know if it's really that much of a fan favourite in general. I saw a lot of stuff on the internet about Dream Theater before I came to this forum and none of it ever led me to believe Awake was one of their most popular albums. In fact Awake was one of the albums I heard about least, and when people do talk about how good it is it's often like a footnote to Images and Words.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I did think it was a dodgy analogy as I was writing it, though, so I may now be defending the indefensible. I just thought of "a lovely horse in a dog show" and wanted to use the line.

This is a discussion that is only occurring because I liked the phrase "lovely horse."

You're a lovely horse... Wait. I don't even know if that's a compliment. You're lovely, stop there.

I think that probably what has happened is that talking about the album on this forum has made everyone think Awake is more different than it actually is, myself included.

I don't know. Maybe it isn't playing to their strengths, but I find it hard to say that when it's so damn good. Maybe playing subtle stuff is a strength as well, they just do it so rarely, we don't know it!

[ZirconBlue]

Also Awake is a huge favourite on this forum, but I don't know if it's really that much of a fan favourite in general. I saw a lot of stuff on the internet about Dream Theater before I came to this forum and none of it ever led me to believe Awake was one of their most popular albums. In fact Awake was one of the albums I heard about least, and when people do talk about how good it is it's often like a footnote to Images and Words.

It tends to be a favorite amongst old-school DT fans.  Going back to the 90s, when the "which DT album is your favorite?" posts would appear on the ytsejam mailing list, the results would usually be Awake 1st, with I&W a close second.  After SFAM came out, it would often be one of the top picks, as well.  Over the years, though, I've seen a lot of those old-school fans become disenchanted with DT and leave the DT community.  So, the poll results now tend to skew more toward newer albums. 

[Ħ]

I'm saying that on Awake, Dream Theater aren't playing to their strengths. I'm not saying it's not very well done - it's a dead well composed album - but it seems a bit odd for them to be off teaching gymastics when they're clearly more comfortable accounting.

Essentially, when they put out Images & Words, it was instantly the best in its genre. Nobody can write technical progressive metal better than Dream Theater, which is probably why they're the flag-flyers for the genre. The broodier stuff, I'd argue, they did a very good job at writing with Awake, but it's hardly them in their element. Which isn't a notch against the band, it just makes it the idea that it's a fan favourite a little unusual. It's like the fans of an olympic pole-vaulter going "look how well he swims!"  It's not wrong to be impressed with his swimming, but it seems a bit of an odd choice for the main attraction.

I like this.  This is basically where I'm coming from.

[toro]

I don't get some of you people, so you would take a One-song-only album like Octavarium, but not an album with no weak points, diversity, awesome atmosphere, awesome production, awesome vocals and a lot of technichal shit?
As a whole Awake is consistent, every song is great and overall is one of their best albums(#1 for me.)

[tgstk2]

it is a great album.... but it has definatly got his lows.... but i think the lows and highs are all personal.
i have never heard a perfect album...because if dream theater would have written the perfect record they could have stopped after that.
i think thats the goal of every musician, to write the perfect song/album. ...but the next song will always be better.....

[Bone_Daddy]

I do think you're understating even the quality of the individual songs though.  The worst song on Awake (probably The Mirror or Lie) is still better than 90% of DT's post-SDOIT songs.  IMO.

-J

Hit the nail right on the head. Great reply.

[WaterToFire]

I began listening to Dream Theater with Systematic Chaos, and Awake came second. I didn't start out liking it very much, but as I was still figuring out what music I liked and what I didn't I kept it in my rotation. One day I found myself listening to Voices and thinking... wow. There's just so much to this song- the enigmatic lyrics, the dynamic vocals, the build ups and soft sections and heavy parts... There's just so much to that song, in particular, that I eventually became drawn into the rest of Dream Theater. But it's still one of my favorites, and Awake is the album which is the strongest, IMO, in those qualities.

[Bone_Daddy]

- Awake has 5 letters; JESUS has 5 letters...

[tgstk2]

so does SATAN wha'ts your point?

[Bone_Daddy]

I think it has its good share of stinkers, ranging from horrible to absolutely boring: Scarred, 6:00, Lie, CIAW, IF and SDV. I never listen to those songs.

6:00? Really?

Damn.

[reo73]

Neither.

I'm saying that on Awake, Dream Theater aren't playing to their strengths. I'm not saying it's not very well done - it's a dead well composed album - but it seems a bit odd for them to be off teaching gymastics when they're clearly more comfortable accounting.

Essentially, when they put out Images & Words, it was instantly the best in its genre. Nobody can write technical progressive metal better than Dream Theater, which is probably why they're the flag-flyers for the genre. The broodier stuff, I'd argue, they did a very good job at writing with Awake, but it's hardly them in their element. Which isn't a notch against the band, it just makes it the idea that it's a fan favourite a little unusual. It's like the fans of an olympic pole-vaulter going "look how well he swims!"  It's not wrong to be impressed with his swimming, but it seems a bit of an odd choice for the main attraction.



I did think it was a dodgy analogy as I was writing it, though, so I may now be defending the indefensible. I just thought of "a lovely horse in a dog show" and wanted to use the line.

This is a discussion that is only occurring because I liked the phrase "lovely horse."

Here's the problem though, DT got most of it's critical accolades by not writing the bombastic stuff.  Awake was DT under control of their bombastic side, being more song oriented, and the result was an incredible album that raised a lot of eyebrows from even the less than casual fan.  In recent years since DT has become mostly bombastic a lot of early casual fans who enjoyed I&W thru SDOIT have lost interest.  This is at least my perception based on comments outside this forum that people make.  What I usually hear is..."I appreciate their skill but I can't listen to their wankery anymore.  I really like old DT though."  And I tend to agree with this sentiment as I hardly listen to new DT.

But, perhaps the bombastic song style is what is capturing new and younger fans who want to be mesmerized by a flurry of notes.  I just don't think it's what's gonna gain them any critical accolades.   

[emindead]

- Awake has 5 letters; JESUS has 5 letters...

n00b

[contest_sanity]

- Awake has 5 letters; JESUS has 5 letters...

n00b

Exactly, it was a joke, and also a semi-reference to this (@ 7:02-7:40):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw_CtUR9Lh0&feature=related

[ariich]

But, perhaps the bombastic song style is what is capturing new and younger fans who want to be mesmerized by a flurry of notes.  I just don't think it's what's gonna gain them any critical accolades.   

I'm not sure why anyone should care about critical accolades, most critics I know are such snobs. DT make music that they like and that most of their fans like, that's all that should matter to an artist.

[reo73]

But, perhaps the bombastic song style is what is capturing new and younger fans who want to be mesmerized by a flurry of notes.  I just don't think it's what's gonna gain them any critical accolades.   

I'm not sure why anyone should care about critical accolades, most critics I know are such snobs. DT make music that they like and that most of their fans like, that's all that should matter to an artist.

True, but i'm not talking about winning a Grammy.  I'm talking about what a more casual listener might appreciate and critique as well written music.  It seems that in the earlier years they were more appreciated for their song craft and in recent years are more despised because of the lack of song craft.

[Ħ]

Bottom line is, there are no real shiners, no Learning to Live's, no Octavarium's, and the only two that could possibly qualify have extremely blehhh sections (Scarred) or are at the bottom of the barrel of DT's epics (Voices).

As for the other songs...

6:00 : Fun song, not really anything special.
Caught in a Web: Arguably the worst DT song.
Innocence Faded: *yawn*
The Silent Man: Eh, it's ok but nothing special.
The Mirror: Unique song, but not really a shiner.  Middle of the road at best.
Lie: Awesome riffage, but the rest of the song is not that great.

That's like, half the album right there.

Only redeeming factors are Erotomania, Voices, two minutes of Scarred, and SDV (and arguably not even that).  Compare with Octavarium, for example, which has the title track, These Walls, The Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons...pretty much flawless songs all the way through...and arguably Panic Attack and The Answer Lies Within.

[JimmyJava]

While Awake might not be one of my favorite DT albums, it has ONE thing that I haven't found on any other DT album yet and that is atmosphere. The songs really makes you think and wonder and it feels like you're walking in a dark forest all alone when listening to it, it's really moody. That's what I like about, you feel something (not including the "holy crap, this is good"-feel). Also, It really feels as if the songs belong to each other where with the later albums, it's just one song to another. The Awake songs have similar sound and feels like they are a telling a story, all closely resembling one another. It has this sorta grey-ish sound to it that I really like and can't put my finger on it.

[reo73]

Bottom line is, there are no real shiners, no Learning to Live's, no Octavarium's, and the only two that could possibly qualify have extremely blehhh sections (Scarred) or are at the bottom of the barrel of DT's epics (Voices).

As for the other songs...

6:00 : Fun song, not really anything special.
Caught in a Web: Arguably the worst DT song.
Innocence Faded: *yawn*
The Silent Man: Eh, it's ok but nothing special.
The Mirror: Unique song, but not really a shiner.  Middle of the road at best.
Lie: Awesome riffage, but the rest of the song is not that great.

That's like, half the album right there.

Only redeeming factors are Erotomania, Voices, two minutes of Scarred, and SDV (and arguably not even that).  Compare with Octavarium, for example, which has the title track, These Walls, The Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons...pretty much flawless songs all the way through...and arguably Panic Attack and The Answer Lies Within.

Your view of what makes a good song then is dramatically different from mine if you consider all those songs nothing special to arguably their worst.  Are you a newer fan or discover DT with their newer material?  Perhaps your taste is skewed towards their newer stuff.  Admittedly mine is skewed towards their older material.

[orcus116]

Bottom line is, there are no real shiners, no Learning to Live's, no Octavarium's, and the only two that could possibly qualify have extremely blehhh sections (Scarred) or are at the bottom of the barrel of DT's epics (Voices).

As for the other songs...

6:00 : Fun song, not really anything special.
Caught in a Web: Arguably the worst DT song.
Innocence Faded: *yawn*
The Silent Man: Eh, it's ok but nothing special.
The Mirror: Unique song, but not really a shiner.  Middle of the road at best.
Lie: Awesome riffage, but the rest of the song is not that great.

That's like, half the album right there.

Only redeeming factors are Erotomania, Voices, two minutes of Scarred, and SDV (and arguably not even that).  Compare with Octavarium, for example, which has the title track, These Walls, The Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons...pretty much flawless songs all the way through...and arguably Panic Attack and The Answer Lies Within.

All of those songs off of Octavarium aren't even in the same echelon of musicality of any song off Awake. I do find it funny how people pass on "The Silent Man" even though it showcases some guitar playing Petrucci rarely ever does. Sure he's done some acoustic work since but just the whole feel of that song is really cool.

On a side note I never understood why people liberally throw the word "epic" around. I would never consider "Voices" one, it's just a really fantastic song that happens to run a bit long.

[ricky]

It has this sorta grey-ish sound to it that I really like and can't put my finger on it.

oh and what you said about atmosphere, too

awake is...indescribable.

[bosk1]

Your view of what makes a good song then is dramatically different from mine if you consider all those songs nothing special to arguably their worst.

Exactly.  I would rank them something like this:

1. Scarred - Spectacularly good song.  Took me awhile to get used to the abrupt transitions back in the day, but once it clicked, this song has been a top 10 and is likely to remain there.
2.  The Mirror - Excellent usage of a very small number of musical ideas that get subtly changed so many ways thoughout the song.  Brilliant.
3.  Lie - Almost as good as The Mirror, but falls just short despite being more dynamic.
4.  Voices - Not sure why H referred to this song as an "epic."  It isn't.  But it is still very, very good.  The vocal parts are written and performed exceptionally well.
5.  6:00 - Yet another example of DT accomplishing a lot without trying to do too much.  Another winner.
6.  Erotomania - Great instrumental that has tons of energy and tons of neat ideas that somehow work together despite being so different.
7.  Caught in a Web - This is the first time the album starts to feel like it is dropping off a bit.  I hated this song for a long time, mainly because the keyboard parts are just SO bad.  I can now appreciate it and like it considerably, but it is not one of my favorites.  I would love a good live version with Jordan changing up the keyboard tone just a bit.
8.  Lifting Shadows Off a Dream - I like the spacey feel of this song and the outro (but UGH!  That "out of tune" sounding keyboard patch again!     Kill it with fire!), which bring this song up a notch from "do not like" to "yeah, that's not bad."
9.  The Silent Man - The song really does nothing for me, although I really like what they did with it on Live Scenes.  I don't hate it, but don't really like it either.
10.  Innocence Faded - I used to hate it, but seeing it on Score made me listen differently and gain a bit of appreciation for it.  Still not crazy about it, but I don't hate it either.
11.  Space-Dye Vest - The only song on the album I really don't like at all.  

I guess I would put the album in 4 tiers:  
1-6:  REALLY like
7-8:  Like
9-10:  Meh--I don't dislike
11:  Don't like

[Hal Incandenza]

Your view of what makes a good song then is dramatically different from mine

I'm finding this thread fascinating for that reason. 

In general, my opinions diverge so far from those of Ħ or reneranucci that it's kind of odd to think that we are actually fans of the same band at all.  That's interesting to me.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Awake for me was my "First Love" w/DT.  It was a new release and it just hauled off and kicked me in the teeth.  Yes, there has been some great music since, but I consider it a very well rounded effort that ranks #2 for me behind I&W's

[Ħ]

Are you a newer fan or discover DT with their newer material?  Perhaps your taste is skewed towards their newer stuff.  Admittedly mine is skewed towards their older material.

Timewise, I'm a late-comer, but I started with SDOIT, then moved to OVM, then got IAW, etc.  So I've bounced around a lot, and my ranking is pretty well distributed.

Based on bosk's description and on what other people are saying, it seems like Awake's charm is its minimalism (like with The Mirror and 6:00) and that is why a lot of people like it.

[orcus116]

I think people like it because its a musically mature album.

[Ħ]

I think people like it because its a musically mature album.

You keep saying that but what does that even mean?  Pretty much all of DT's catalogue is "musically mature".

[TL]

Honestly, Awake is probably my favorite DT album. I can't even really explain why; it just is.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Alright. I'm bored, so I'm going to do this.

1) People keep saying Awake is musically mature. What does that mean?

Awake has the least soloing of any Dream Theater album. It has 11 songs, and only 2 have a keyboard solo.

Awake is the most atmospheric Dream Theater album.

Awake is the only Dream Theater album that isn't afraid to get quiet for extended amounts of time. We're talking about TSM and LSOAD.

Basically: To me, Dream Theater have always been 1/3 prog, 1/3 metal, 1/3 individualism. Awake is 1/2 prog, 1/2 metal. The individualism is barely there.

2) People keep saying Awake is the best lyrically. Why?

You could dissect the lyrics for years. They reveal information about relationships within the band and why the band broke up in the first place. They are, in a way, a document of the band's inner workings circa 1994.

The subject matter of the lyrics is the most emotional of any Dream Theater album. Nearly every song has to do with deteriorating relationships. We essentially get two sides: Petrucci and Moore. Both look at the present with disdain, but where Petrucci looks to the future with hope, Moore looks to the future with despair. The contrast is numbing.

How the lyrics are written is very creative.

In summary, no other Dream Theater album has lyrics as consistently (beginning to end) informative, relating, or creative.

[orcus116]

I think people like it because its a musically mature album.

You keep saying that but what does that even mean?  Pretty much all of DT's catalogue is "musically mature".

In my humble opinion it is the only album they've made that is actually sincere in its seriousness and on a critically respectable level. Like ariich said there's going to be that "who cares about critics" mindset but to either the casual listener or someone who takes music a bit seriously Awake doesn't really have an eyeroll factor the way most of their other albums do. Are they fun to listen to? Hell yeah they are, but music is still an art form and at times demands a little respect. The identity the album has is completely unlike any other they've done and as has been mentioned before the whole atmosphere is 100% recognized. It makes the album come across like a collect of songs that actually give a damn whereas I can't say that about the more recent albums.

In movie terms:
Images and Words is Star Wars - incredibly fun and enthralling experience
Awake is The Empire Strikes Back - brooding but the only one you can truly take seriously
Falling Into Infinity is Return Of The Jedi - quirky but ultimately a satisfying journey despite some lame parts

Octavarium, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds are the Star Wars prequels

[WaterToFire]

I think people like it because its a musically mature album.

You keep saying that but what does that even mean?  Pretty much all of DT's catalogue is "musically mature".

In my humble opinion it is the only album they've made that is actually sincere in its seriousness and on a critically respectable level. Like ariich said there's going to be that "who cares about critics" mindset but to either the casual listener or someone who takes music a bit seriously Awake doesn't really have an eyeroll factor the way most of their other albums do. Are they fun to listen to? Hell yeah they are, but music is still an art form and at times demands a little respect. The identity the album has is completely unlike any other they've done and as has been mentioned before the whole atmosphere is 100% recognized. It makes the album come across like a collect of songs that actually give a damn whereas I can't say that about the more recent albums.

In movie terms:
Images and Words is Star Wars - incredibly fun and enthralling experience
Awake is The Empire Strikes Back - brooding but the only one you can truly take seriously
Falling Into Infinity is Return Of The Jedi - quirky but ultimately a satisfying journey despite some lame parts

Octavarium, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds are the Star Wars prequels

I love this analysis.

[Ħ]

Alright. I'm bored, so I'm going to do this.

Me too.

1) People keep saying Awake is musically mature. What does that mean?

Awake has the least soloing of any Dream Theater album. It has 11 songs, and only 2 have a keyboard solo.

How does less soloing = musically mature?

Awake is the most atmospheric Dream Theater album.

If so, then barely.  And really it's not.

Awake is the only Dream Theater album that isn't afraid to get quiet for extended amounts of time. We're talking about TSM and LSOAD.

Last I checked, Awake isn't the only album to do this.  Even Octavarium has quiet bits (The Answer Lies Within, intro to Sacrificed Sons).

Basically: To me, Dream Theater have always been 1/3 prog, 1/3 metal, 1/3 individualism. Awake is 1/2 prog, 1/2 metal. The individualism is barely there.

Are you saying that individualism = poor music maturity?  If you aren't, then why are you including it in your case for Awake as a musically mature album?  If you are....well that's just silly.

2) People keep saying Awake is the best lyrically. Why?

You could dissect the lyrics for years. They reveal information about relationships within the band and why the band broke up in the first place. They are, in a way, a document of the band's inner workings circa 1994.

Complex, mysterious, cryptic lyrics =/= good lyrics.  In fact I'd argue the opposite.  Although I agree that there are some lyrical highlights, they are really not a notch above DT's other material.

The subject matter of the lyrics is the most emotional of any Dream Theater album. Nearly every song has to do with deteriorating relationships. We essentially get two sides: Petrucci and Moore. Both look at the present with disdain, but where Petrucci looks to the future with hope, Moore looks to the future with despair. The contrast is numbing.

I think you are imagining things.  Yes, KM's lyrics are morbid, but JP's are too, for the most part.  See Voices and Caught in a Web for example.

How the lyrics are written is very creative.

Ok, yes.  But any more so than other albums?

In summary, no other Dream Theater album has lyrics as consistently (beginning to end) informative, relating, or creative.

I wouldn't really say that.  I mean, yes Scarred, Voices, and KM's stuff (sans Lie) have great lyrics.  But their are some lame-o lyrics (like The Mirror, the aforementioned Lie, Innocence Faded/The Silent Man which are pretentiously profound, and Caught in a Web which is eh).