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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Ħ on May 10, 2011, 04:31:08 PM
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So, I get fanboyism. I get how someone could rank SFAM at the top, or SDOIT, or possibly even OVM and FII. But the one album that seems to have the most stubborn fanboys is Awake. I mean, yeah, it's an enjoyable listen. But does it really compare with the rest of DT's discography?
1) Not enough masterpieces. I mean, you have AMBI, which is fantastic, and SD-V (I'll probably lose some credibility at this point), and the first half of Scarred. But then you've got CIAW, IF, Lie, 6:00, and The Mirror, which are definitely fun songs in the right context, but in no way compare to most of DT's material.
2) Poor production. Examples: poor editing at 7:11 with LaBrie's "-TAAAAAAY", early cutoff of the end of SD-V.
3) Lack of variety. You have two types of songs, without much of a spectrum in between--the heavy riffy side of Lie, and the ballady side of LSOAD. Compare with an album like FII, where you have a huge variety of sounds.
So somebody explain to me why Awake is better than the rest, cause I really don't get it. =/
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Tastes innit.
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Tastes innit.
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Awake, for my buck, trundles along being great, but unremarkable.
There aren't any truly weak moments, but neither are there any true facepunch moments. Erotomania confidently rocks you to the core, but it doesn't smack you in the face. Which, from a band as soaring and ambitious as Dream Theater, is a little out of character.
It's grey, where most DT albums are black and white. And while it benefits from the lack of weakness, it also suffers from the lack of strength.
Images and Words, meanwhile, is all bangers and no mash. Ditto SDOIT. There's not a single song I don't like on Octavarium, either. So an album like Awake just can't compete against them. It's not poor, nor ever bland, but amongst the rest of their discography it's fairly... unexceptional. So, while I like it, I can't in good faith give it a rank any higher than sixth.
The greyness, however, is probably the precise reason loads of people really dig it.
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Reasons cited will be things like flow, atmosphere, it is more than the sum of its tracks, etc.
I do think you're understating even the quality of the individual songs though. The worst song on Awake (probably The Mirror or Lie) is still better than 90% of DT's post-SDOIT songs. IMO.
-J
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Great post RW. Same for me. I don't mean to bash Awake because I think it's solid, but I can't see it being the best.
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Different people have different tastes, but I agree with your overall assessment of Awake. Except the "masterpiece" is Scarred for me, and Voices is a great track, but one of the weakest of the great DT tracks, if you know what I mean. It's a very good album, probably better as a whole than FII, Octavarium and Systematic Chaos, but at the same time those three albums all have one or two songs better than anything on Awake. I wouldn't say it has no weaknesses (weaknesses being relative to other DT tracks) for me though since I'm not a huge fan of Lifting Shadows Off A Dream or 6:00.
But then again I'm inclined to rank Train Of Thought as the top DT album, so you and others would probably not be able to see how someone could do that. So I'm not questioning how someone could like Awake best, even though I don't.
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Is the first album which was created as an group/album (WDADU and I&W were created with more time without fan and media pressure )
they created one of the best albums and the most innacesible and dense
:metal
saluDTs
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Great post RW. Same for me. I don't mean to bash Awake because I think it's solid, but I can't see it being the best.
This. Love the album, but DT has done better.
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I guess I'm an Awake fanboi. Without getting into a detailed analysis, I can say that it's the only DT album that simply hasn't left my CD changer or come off of my .mp3 player since purchase. It's the standard DT album for me due to its consistency, lack of wankery, and as a drummer, I feel it's MP's finest moment. Also LSOAD is worth the price of admission.
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Awake is the best album because it is
Also Kevin Moore
Also this:
Tastes innit.
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Reasons cited will be things like flow, atmosphere, it is more than the sum of its tracks, etc.
I do think you're understating even the quality of the individual songs though. The worst song on Awake (probably The Mirror or Lie) is still better than 90% of DT's post-SDOIT songs. IMO.
-J
I don't know that I'd go that far, but Awake is one of the few DT albums where I never skip a single song. On the song rating thread, I gave it four 9s, four 8s, two 7s, and one 10, and frankly the two 7s might be 8s on another day.
Also, I am an unabashed Space Dye Vest fanboy. That song just flat-out works for me, and provides a really interesting and different coda to the album.
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I will say that I like Awake as a whole and don't skip any songs. It IS a great record.
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I don't know that I'd go that far, but Awake is one of the few DT albums where I never skip a single song. On the song rating thread, I gave it four 9s, four 8s, two 7s, and one 10, and frankly the two 7s might be 8s on another day.
Also, I am an unabashed Space Dye Vest fanboy. That song just flat-out works for me, and provides a really interesting and different coda to the album.
i read this and thought "wait... Another Day is on Awake?"
then i was disappoint in myself
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i like awake because it has this charismatic air about it. to me, awake isn't about "epic masterpieces" or "complexity".
i don't know, I just get this underlying emotion from awake as a whole, that I don't really get from the other albums. there's something mysterious about this album, and that's why I think it's one of my favorites.
edit - i meant favorites.
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What Ricky said. :smiley:
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So somebody explain to me why Awake is better than the rest, cause I really don't get it. =/
It's not, there's just a lot of people who have been fans since 1994...
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Awake is the best album because it is
Also Kevin Moore
Kevin Moore's conspicuous only by his absence...
Songwritingwise, he essentially just did what he was told. By all reports he'd more or less signed off before they started recording. Space-Dye Vest aside, Moore was almost unquestionably the LVP.
Awake is, at its core, the sum total of three guys writing music.
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I havent played awake in yearss i always go back to i&w tot sfam acos wdadu but always seem to skip awake
So for me no
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Awake is the best album because it is
Also Kevin Moore
Kevin Moore's conspicuous only by his absence...
Songwritingwise, he essentially just did what he was told. By all reports he'd more or less signed off before they started recording. Space-Dye Vest aside, Moore was almost unquestionably the LVP.
Awake is, at its core, the sum total of three guys writing music.
i agree with pretty much everything you said. what's weird though is that while I sit here listening to it for maybe the thousandth time, I can't help but hear kev in alot of places. he brought this rich, atmospheric element to DT's music as well as simple, yet direct melodies. i get subtle hints of those characteristics all through this album, in a number of places. i just feel like he contributed more to the music than we give him credit for.
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i agree with pretty much everything you said. what's weird though is that while I sit here listening to it for maybe the thousandth time, I can't help but hear kev in alot of places. he brought this rich, atmospheric element to DT's music as well as simple, yet direct melodies. i get subtle hints of those characteristics all through this album, in a number of places. i just feel like he contributed more to the music than we give him credit for.
In the LiT/5YiaLT commentary, Portnoy notes that KM worked a lot on 6:00, Lie, and SDV, the songs that he wrote lyrics for. JP also adds that he put a bit of work into Voices too.
As for Awake, three thoughts:
- Yeah, the lack of any stinkers really helps it. Listening to an album as a whole, any bad moment puts a bad taste in the experience as a whole. The stuff beforehand is less good because it leads into something bad, and the stuff afterward is less good because it comes from something bad. An album isn't a collection of songs, it's a cohesive experience. Awake is by far the most consistently good.
- RW pointed out that Awake has a lot of "grey," which I think is a good point. It's by far the most subtle DT album in terms of how it's designed. For instance, I absolutely love the ending of Octavarium, it's one of the best DT moments ever, but I don't think a piece of music can more obviously say "THIS IS AN EPIC MOMENT, YOU SHOULD BE OVERWHELMED BY IT!" Awake never ever makes anything too obvious. The ending string section of Scarred is pretty epic, but there's some mildly complex guitar stuff going on under it. The Mirror is very tortured and regretful, but it's tempered by the groovy metal and the spaceiness of it. This also leads to:
- Awake is the most complex DT album in terms of emotional dimension. Not only does it never beat you over the head with a theme or idea, it juggles multiple themes and ideas at one time virtually all the time. I'm not saying modern DT has never done this. A lot of Octavarium is complex, TMOLS is overtly sad/mournful yet brings a lot of angles into it, Forsaken (I'm being serious) even has some dimension. But Awake is consistently multidimensional, and I don't see how moments like SUCKING ON HIS PIPE even begin to compare.
- Awake has the best lyrics of any DT album.
- A lot of people say Awake has no really big moments, but I don't see how that's the case, although I realize taste comes into play here. Scarred is one of DT's top three songs. The Mirror/Lie is a ridiculous one/two combo. Lifting Shadows is one of the few really romantic songs in the DT catalog, with some great and subtle playing from the band. Voices is also incredible as a song. Space Dye-Vest is wonderfully weird and dark, and so on.
When it comes down to the question of "Which DT album would I most want to sit down and listen to in its entirety?" No other album is as satisfying as Awake. Although I&W is a legitimate second place.
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1) Not enough masterpieces. I mean, you have AMBI, which is fantastic, and SD-V (I'll probably lose some credibility at this point), and the first half of Scarred. But then you've got CIAW, IF, Lie, 6:00, and The Mirror, which are definitely fun songs in the right context, but in no way compare to most of DT's material.
Not every song has to be an epic, for the most part the shorter songs songs on Awake are very well written. Certainly better then the shorter songs on any album following it in my opinion, where for the most part the shorter songs are fairly entertaining filler between the "epics".
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You think Awake has poor production? While it's not even in my top 5 favorite DT albums, I think it certainly has very good production and sits only behind FII in terms of best production on a DT album. I can just hear how much "heavier" the metal riffs on songs like CIAW and Lie are compared to songs from Train of Thought or SC and I believe that is attributed to the fact that the rhythm guitars on Awake were quadruple tracked.
Did you look at the examples I gave for its poor production? It is littered with mistakes. And as for Awake sounding heavier than TOT....wut?
Not every song has to be an epic, for the most part the shorter songs songs on Awake are very well written. Certainly better then the shorter songs on any album following it in my opinion, where for the most part the shorter songs are fairly entertaining filler between the "epics".
I agree. But the shorter songs are not top DT quality at all. I mean, look at songs like New Millennium, These Walls, Constant Motion, etc. that simply blow CIAW and IF out of the water.
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Reap, your post wast probably the best defense I've seen here.
- Yeah, the lack of any stinkers really helps it. Listening to an album as a whole, any bad moment puts a bad taste in the experience as a whole. The stuff beforehand is less good because it leads into something bad, and the stuff afterward is less good because it comes from something bad. An album isn't a collection of songs, it's a cohesive experience. Awake is by far the most consistently good.
I agree with your psychology of listening to albums as a whole, but I would say that Awake is littered with stinkers. CIAW and IF are simply boring. The Mirror only works on certain days, Lie is okay. As for the epics, there are lousy parts that really bring them down, like the post-do-you-feel section of Scarred.
- RW pointed out that Awake has a lot of "grey," which I think is a good point. It's by far the most subtle DT album in terms of how it's designed. For instance, I absolutely love the ending of Octavarium, it's one of the best DT moments ever, but I don't think a piece of music can more obviously say "THIS IS AN EPIC MOMENT, YOU SHOULD BE OVERWHELMED BY IT!" Awake never ever makes anything too obvious. The ending string section of Scarred is pretty epic, but there's some mildly complex guitar stuff going on under it. The Mirror is very tortured and regretful, but it's tempered by the groovy metal and the spaceiness of it.
Okay, I can get on board with that. But greyness isn't necessarily better or worse than being black-and-white and "obvious".
- Awake is the most complex DT album in terms of emotional dimension. Not only does it never beat you over the head with a theme or idea, it juggles multiple themes and ideas at one time virtually all the time. I'm not saying modern DT has never done this. A lot of Octavarium is complex, TMOLS is overtly sad/mournful yet brings a lot of angles into it, Forsaken (I'm being serious) even has some dimension. But Awake is consistently multidimensional, and I don't see how moments like SUCKING ON HIS PIPE even begin to compare.
I see where you are coming from. I agree that it is overall more emotional than many of their modern albums, but I wouldn't say it is clearly the most emotional. Look at Train of Thought, for example, which is chock full of feeling (although a different kind of feeling from Awake).
- Awake has the best lyrics of any DT album.
I can get on board with that. But it's not like there aren't bad lyrics, or that others don't even remotely compare. It's pretty close overall.
- A lot of people say Awake has no really big moments, but I don't see how that's the case, although I realize taste comes into play here. Scarred is one of DT's top three songs. The Mirror/Lie is a ridiculous one/two combo. Lifting Shadows is one of the few really romantic songs in the DT catalog, with some great and subtle playing from the band. Voices is also incredible as a song. Space Dye-Vest is wonderfully weird and dark, and so on.
I agree that there are big moments, although there are less of them. But I think it hurts the album more than help it. DT just didn't do the whole atmospheric subtlety thing that well back then (although they've definitely improved).
The thing is, I like atmospheric albums, I really do, when they are done well. I mean, I listen to Opeth and Porcupine Tree! I just don't think that Awake is an extremely strong attempt at being atmospheric, although it is definitely designed that way. DT is much better at writing "obvious" music (as Reap put it) and the albums that are "obvious" are the best, and not by coincidence.
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I have to disagree there. I prefer Innocence Faded to all of those songs, and I only really rank New Millennium over Caught In a Web. You also managed to choose my two least favorite songs from Awake :P
Though this is getting heavily into opinion, I just feel the song writing for the shorter songs was much better on Awake.
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The best things Awake has are the following:
-LaBrie's vocals
-Voices
-Lifting Shadows
-Puppies on Acid
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I just thought of something else. I remember buying Awake the day it came out and being really nervous about how it would sound. I was still a new DT fan who had devoured I&W (and didn't know about WDADU because there was no internet and record stores didn't stock it). I had such high hopes for them and didn't want to be disappointed. About 2 minutes into Voices, I realized they had actually topped my much beloved I&W (for me), and this meant they were probably going to be consistently good for years to come. It was also when I realized they'd also kept the same members for two albums (unheard of for prog-metal bands in those days, though I didn't learn about Kev 'till later) - which meant they had a chance at consistency and longevity.
In retrospect, Awake might be terrible compared to the albums that followed but I'll never be able to objectively hear that because Awake is the album that made me into a full-blown-frothing-at-the-mouth- forcing-strangers-to-listen-to-them DT fan. I have absolutely no objectivity when it comes to Awake because for me it is the entire essence of what made me a DT fan, inspired my discovery of Rush, Yes, and Iron Maiden and made me realize that I wasn't a run-of-the-mill metalhead, but rather a prog-head, and that that was something pretty unique and wonderful. It was the opening of a whole new world to me and probably the single most vivid memory I'll ever have of listening to any album for the first time.
In short, I can't fairly answer the question in the OP.
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Awake is an awesome album, but not as good as SFAM and I&W are for me. Those two albums just amaze me every time.
but Awake as some amazing stuff too
-6:00
-Caught In A Web
-Lie
-Space-Dye Vest
-Voices
-Lifting Shadows
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- Yeah, the lack of any stinkers really helps it. Listening to an album as a whole, any bad moment puts a bad taste in the experience as a whole. The stuff beforehand is less good because it leads into something bad, and the stuff afterward is less good because it comes from something bad. An album isn't a collection of songs, it's a cohesive experience. Awake is by far the most consistently good.
- RW pointed out that Awake has a lot of "grey," which I think is a good point. It's by far the most subtle DT album in terms of how it's designed. For instance, I absolutely love the ending of Octavarium, it's one of the best DT moments ever, but I don't think a piece of music can more obviously say "THIS IS AN EPIC MOMENT, YOU SHOULD BE OVERWHELMED BY IT!" Awake never ever makes anything too obvious. The ending string section of Scarred is pretty epic, but there's some mildly complex guitar stuff going on under it. The Mirror is very tortured and regretful, but it's tempered by the groovy metal and the spaceiness of it. This also leads to:
- Awake is the most complex DT album in terms of emotional dimension. Not only does it never beat you over the head with a theme or idea, it juggles multiple themes and ideas at one time virtually all the time. I'm not saying modern DT has never done this. A lot of Octavarium is complex, TMOLS is overtly sad/mournful yet brings a lot of angles into it, Forsaken (I'm being serious) even has some dimension. But Awake is consistently multidimensional, and I don't see how moments like SUCKING ON HIS PIPE even begin to compare.
- Awake has the best lyrics of any DT album.
- A lot of people say Awake has no really big moments, but I don't see how that's the case, although I realize taste comes into play here. Scarred is one of DT's top three songs. The Mirror/Lie is a ridiculous one/two combo. Lifting Shadows is one of the few really romantic songs in the DT catalog, with some great and subtle playing from the band. Voices is also incredible as a song. Space Dye-Vest is wonderfully weird and dark, and so on.
When it comes down to the question of "Which DT album would I most want to sit down and listen to in its entirety?" No other album is as satisfying as Awake. Although I&W is a legitimate second place.
(https://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab57/VanDerGraafGenerator/fabulousFantastic.png)
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Hmm. I really disagree, I think the production rules. I love love love the airy reverb on the drums, especially. It's probably the one album that has no bad songs at all, and I have no trouble listening through the whole thing in one go any time. So many memorable drum parts, as well. MP shines on it more than on any other album imo. JLB is top notch on it, in my opinion his best DT album performance, followed by IW.
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awake to me tied in the first place with IAW.
while IAW won on the melody and technical side.
Awake won on the ambient, atmospheric, and emotional side.
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I may be an Awake fanboy because to me no other DT album has even come close to it. Every song seems to bring something different to the table yet the album blends well as a theme. It is darker than any other DT album and has an undeniable atmosphere and emotion to it. It's not overtly technical which I appreciate. Petrucci plays within the song and has very memorable guitar parts, more so than any other album. And JLBs vocals are amazing. They are more growly than any other album. Lastly, the lyrical content is by far their best as a whole.
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I remember back on the official message board, I almost never heard anything but unbridled enthusiasm when discussing awake. The times sure have changed a bit. Most newer fans(to be fair some old fans as well) don't tend to dig Awake and Images as much. For me, Awake is not only my favorite album by Dream Theater, but of all time. I love everything about it. There are so many moments that just stand out as incredible:
The opening of 6:00
The last verse of CIAW
The outro of Innocence Faded
The Silent Man theme in Erotomania
"I'm lying her in bed..." and DAT SOLO in Voices.
The bridge right before the solo in The Silent Man
PUPPIES ON ACID in The Mirror
The build up to the solo in Lie
The strings in the beginning of LSOAD(or all of it, ladies' choice)
Scarred being my favorite song, everything about it is awesome.
SDV, the outro strings into the lone piano.
The reasons this album is #1, for me, is that it moves me. It makes me think. I enjoy it from start to finish. I love everything about it and if you don't, then that's fine. Because I still get to enjoy it. And that's good enough for me.
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one other thing. Awake has the best James Labrie performance
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ReaPsTA pretty much nailed it, but I want to address the three main points in the OP:
1) Not enough masterpieces. I mean, you have AMBI, which is fantastic, and SD-V (I'll probably lose some credibility at this point), and the first half of Scarred. But then you've got CIAW, IF, Lie, 6:00, and The Mirror, which are definitely fun songs in the right context, but in no way compare to most of DT's material.
If we can assume for the sake of argument that those songs you mentioned are the least best songs from Awake, those songs take up about 40% of the album. I would then submit that no other DT album, except for maybe I&W, has that strong of a bottom 40%.
2) Poor production. Examples: poor editing at 7:11 with LaBrie's "-TAAAAAAY", early cutoff of the end of SD-V.
Not sure what JLB part you are talking about (at 7:11...huh?), but the production and sound of this album is arguably their best, surpassed only by FII, possibly. But it sounds terrific. Okay, if you are only listening on computer speakers or mp3s, then maybe you'll have a tough time hearing it, but if you listen to the actual CD on a good stereo, it sounds terrific. It is dark, moody and airy. To make a comparison, Train of Thought also sounds dark, moody and airy, but that record is compressed way too much (I always say how the beginning of "This Dying Soul" sounds like you are listening to the song with blankets over your speakers), while Awake has tons of room to breathe and thus sounds very alive and fresh, even to this day.
3) Lack of variety. You have two types of songs, without much of a spectrum in between--the heavy riffy side of Lie, and the ballady side of LSOAD. Compare with an album like FII, where you have a huge variety of sounds.
Two types of songs? That makes little sense, unless your views of "types of songs" is extremely broad. Since I would assume that you would say "The Silent Man" and "Space Dye Vest" fall under the same ballady side, are you going to tell me that they sound similar?
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Random side note after Kev mentioned ToT. Wasn't the production style of that album done on purpose?
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I think a lot of the "fanboy-ism" associated with Awake is rooted in those of us that got it on release. When I first listened to it, it jumped right out at me and has held my interest ever since. It felt like a natural progression from I&W. It's similar to the way many of us (myself included) disliked FII on release. It was too far of a departure from "their sound" and many found SFaM as a return to form.
I'm not sure how I'd feel about it if hearing it now after other albums.
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the first half of Scarred.
Try all of Scarred. The complete song is an amazing masterpiece, a top 10 for some people, and represents both elements of this album perfectly.
But then you've got CIAW, IF, Lie, 6:00, and The Mirror, which are definitely fun songs in the right context, but in no way compare to most of DT's material.
Really? I like them a lot and I'd rather hear them over the vast majority of DT's songs.
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Random side note after Kev mentioned ToT. Wasn't the production style of that album done on purpose?
The mix on ToT is awesome. JM in particular sounds great. But the mastering overcompresses an already very compressed mix beyond the point where it's aesthetically pleasing into mush.
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I'll paste my thoughts on Awake from a long while ago, as they're still about the same:
Awake is #1 for me. It was the first DT album I was exposed to (sometime in 1996), but its status at the top does not rest on mere sentiment alone. Additional factors include:
- near perfect combination of heaviness with technicality and progressiveness
- JP's best solo (Voices)
- JLB's vocal performance
- diversity: heavy songs & ballads; short songs & long ones; happy, soaring melodies & dark, disturbing tones; accessible at times & hard-to-wrap-your-brain-around much of the rest
- some of their best lyrical work (Voices, SDV), as well as overall lyrical consistency
- the best instrumental
- squeezing the most amount of heaviness out of a simplistic riff EVER (The Mirror)
- galactic cowboys are thanked in the liner notes
- Awake has 5 letters; JESUS has 5 letters...
case closed.
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I've only been listening to DT since SC and Awake is one of my favorites. It was one of the last DT albums I heard and was completely blown away by Jame's vocals on it. He just unleashes on Awake. I also like the overall mood of it. This will probably be blasphemy to many, but imo it's better than I&W. :omg:
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This will probably be blasphemy to many, but imo it's better than I&W. :omg:
Not blasphemy to me.
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For me Awake is simply the best DT album! :metal I can't really explain without mentioning anything that hasn't been said already.
This will probably be blasphemy to many, but imo it's better than I&W. :omg:
Not blasphemy to me.
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My thoughts on Awake have been mentioned, I suppose, but I'll add my side to this discussion, anyway.
What strikes me about Awake is its consistency. There are no bad songs on this album, and while the album doesn't contain top 10 material through and through (LSOAD is my third favourite DT song, Scarred and Voices are somewhere in the top 20), I would rank every song pretty high.
Another plus is the dark and cold atmosphere which fits perfectly well, and the production really helps here. I can't pinpoint what exactly seals the deal, I guess it's a variety of small things that you can't really single out.
Also, JLB's vocal performance is killer and I simply love pretty much all the lyrics that were written for this album (yes, even S-DV).
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Actually, I can pinpoint something very specific in my own musical development that made Awake so special. At the time (1996), I was in 10th grade, but was still only beginning to discover a lot of music, particularly heavy shit. Friends were introducing me to Metallica, Megadeth, Testament, Sepultura, etc. And I was digging it. However, I was already at that point a huge Rush fan and had been for a couple of years. So when my friend played me Awake, and I heard the technical complexity of Rush combined with that metallic crunch of guitar -- and then those amazing vocals -- I was like: who the fuck is this band? It was like they were everything I've ever wanted and then some. And to this day Awake is still my favorite album of all time.
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I'll paste my thoughts on Awake from a long while ago, as they're still about the same:
Awake is #1 for me. It was the first DT album I was exposed to (sometime in 1996), but its status at the top does not rest on mere sentiment alone. Additional factors include:
- near perfect combination of heaviness with technicality and progressiveness
- JP's best solo (Voices)
- JLB's vocal performance
- diversity: heavy songs & ballads; short songs & long ones; happy, soaring melodies & dark, disturbing tones; accessible at times & hard-to-wrap-your-brain-around much of the rest
- some of their best lyrical work (Voices, SDV), as well as overall lyrical consistency
- the best instrumental
- squeezing the most amount of heaviness out of a simplistic riff EVER (The Mirror)
- galactic cowboys are thanked in the liner notes
- Awake has 5 letters; JESUS has 5 letters...
case closed.
you've said it all dude :tup
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By far, yes.
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Awake has pretty much always been my favorite DT-album, and I don't think it will ever change.
For me it has the perfect amount of everything, songs doesn't have to be long in order to be good, and thankfully this album doesn't really have any 'out of place'-wankery, something I don't like with the newer DT releases.
I'd also say that I really like all songs on Awake, Voices is probably my favorite.
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1) Not enough masterpieces. I mean, you have AMBI, which is fantastic, and SD-V (I'll probably lose some credibility at this point), and the first half of Scarred. But then you've got CIAW, IF, Lie, 6:00, and The Mirror, which are definitely fun songs in the right context, but in no way compare to most of DT's material.
2) Poor production. Examples: poor editing at 7:11 with LaBrie's "-TAAAAAAY", early cutoff of the end of SD-V.
3) Lack of variety. You have two types of songs, without much of a spectrum in between--the heavy riffy side of Lie, and the ballady side of LSOAD. Compare with an album like FII, where you have a huge variety of sounds.
So somebody explain to me why Awake is better than the rest, cause I really don't get it. =/
You're a crazy person.
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lack of wankery
Wut.
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Easily my favorite DT album. Absolutely perfect. I would not change one single note. It's also in my top 5 albums
of all time. DT's masterpiece.
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Best album IMO. I&W is only that can be compared with Awake, not FII
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Awake is my favorite album, for many reasons already explained by ReaPsTA and others. Some people have commented on MP's performance already, but in particular, I think Awake was the album that shows some of his most interesting cymbal work. It's a big part of what makes LSoaD so compelling for me.
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I just thought of something else. I remember buying Awake the day it came out and being really nervous about how it would sound. I was still a new DT fan who had devoured I&W (and didn't know about WDADU because there was no internet and record stores didn't stock it). I had such high hopes for them and didn't want to be disappointed. About 2 minutes into Voices, I realized they had actually topped my much beloved I&W (for me), and this meant they were probably going to be consistently good for years to come. It was also when I realized they'd also kept the same members for two albums (unheard of for prog-metal bands in those days, though I didn't learn about Kev 'till later) - which meant they had a chance at consistency and longevity.
In retrospect, Awake might be terrible compared to the albums that followed but I'll never be able to objectively hear that because Awake is the album that made me into a full-blown-frothing-at-the-mouth- forcing-strangers-to-listen-to-them DT fan. I have absolutely no objectivity when it comes to Awake because for me it is the entire essence of what made me a DT fan, inspired my discovery of Rush, Yes, and Iron Maiden and made me realize that I wasn't a run-of-the-mill metalhead, but rather a prog-head, and that that was something pretty unique and wonderful. It was the opening of a whole new world to me and probably the single most vivid memory I'll ever have of listening to any album for the first time.
In short, I can't fairly answer the question in the OP.
I am much in the same boat. While Awake doesn't quite come into my rotation as much now as it used to, it still has more emotion locked into it than the other DT albums. I jumped into DT the minute I heard "Pull Me Under" and I&W was in my cd player constantly...until Awake came out. To me Awake was such a solid album and clearly better than I&W that I was just floored. I probably listened to all/part of the album daily for several years. The album came at a time in my life that just "worked"...so it is hard for me to objectively rank the album in many ways. The emotions attached to the album are strong.
However, many of my favorite songs are on Awake (Lie, 6:00, SDV, LSOAD) and in the song rankings Awake was tied for my 3rd highest ranking album. So even over time the Album has held up. The one area for me that this album stands out above most of the others is just JLB's singing. He has aged since that time and the accident did change his vocals. He is a more mature singer now and still very capable (and honestly is central to the "sound" of DT for me...WDADU is almost unlistenable imo because of the vocals), but JLB's singing in Awake is so clean and clear that it is one of the standout points of the album compared to the rest of DT's catalogue.
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As a side note the Editor in Chief of "Premier Guitar" magazine listed Awake as his guitar album guilty pleasure a few months back. Mind you this dude is in no way a prog-head and even states in his explanation that he typically doesn't like this kind of music. But he also says (I paraphrase) Awake is inspired with amazing guitar craft. My feeling here is that even people who are not that into DT or that type of music appreciate Awake because of that emotional x-factor quality it possesses and it's accessibility that no other album seems to.
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My feeling here is that even people who are not that into DT or that type of music appreciate Awake because of that emotional x-factor quality it possesses
(https://www.quirkybet.com/assets/images/louis-walsh.jpg)
"WELL OI LOIKED IT."
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I love Awake, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not that subtle and it's not that emotional. If you don't like DT, you ain't liking Awake.
That being said (again, hate saying that...) it is the most un-DT of all DT albums, so it is the hardest to compare, and I tend to like different things about it than I do about other DT albums.
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I like Awake now, but it was probably the DT album that took the longest for me to click with (WDADU hasn't clicked yet).
For me it doesn't have any real standout tracks, like their other albums have. A couple of tracks are better than the others, but none in the same league as Learning To Live, Finally Free, Metropolis, In The Name Of God, and such. It has climbed a couple of spots in my album ranking during the latest years, but is still only in the middle of the rankings.
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I think it has its good share of stinkers, ranging from horrible to absolutely boring: Scarred, 6:00, Lie, CIAW, IF and SDV. I never listen to those songs.
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I think it has its good share of stinkers, ranging from horrible to absolutely boring: Scarred, 6:00, Lie, CIAW, IF and SDV. I never listen to those songs.
I can't comprehend this???
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I think it has its good share of stinkers, ranging from horrible to absolutely boring: Scarred, 6:00, Lie, CIAW, IF and SDV. I never listen to those songs.
I can't comprehend this???
Hehe well I'm one of the few DT fans that has a really poor opinion of Awake. But it's just my opinion.
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I think it has its good share of stinkers, ranging from horrible to absolutely boring: Scarred, 6:00, Lie, CIAW, IF and SDV. I never listen to those songs.
I can't comprehend this???
Hehe well I'm one of the few DT fans that has a really poor opinion of Awake. But it's just my opinion.
That's cool, we all have our faults. ;D
But, just to keep the cosmic universe in order I am going to listen to Awake 3X today to make up for your lack of participation.
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Definitely a top 5 for me, but not the best them.
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I think it has its good share of stinkers, ranging from horrible to absolutely boring: Scarred, 6:00, Lie, CIAW, IF and SDV. I never listen to those songs.
I can't comprehend this???
Hehe well I'm one of the few DT fans that has a really poor opinion of Awake. But it's just my opinion.
That's cool, we all have our faults. ;D
But, just to keep the cosmic universe in order I am going to listen to Awake 3X today to make up for your lack of participation.
:lol Ok, I can listen to Voice and The Mirror to make up for my faults.
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I don't like Awake too much. It's good, but not a masterpiece imo.
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Not sure if anyone has made this criticism yet, but Awake's choruses have bad transitions into them, even if the chorus itself is good.
To give examples, listen to the transition from verse -> chorus in Caught In A Web and Scarred (the two biggest culprits, IMO). The choruses themselves are good, but the build-up to them kinda sucks. They rectified this issue with FII onwards, however.
That said, Awake's main difference is the lack of bombast, which is what the band excels in. It is a nice change of pace.
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Awake is one of my least favorite Dream Theater albums. I still like it though.
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That said, Awake's main difference is the lack of bombast, which is what the band excels in. It is a nice change of pace.
Absolutely. It seems odd that one of the favourite albums is the one that doesn't play to their strengths at all. It's a bit like putting a lovely horse in a dog show. Or getting a talented accountant to work as a gym teacher. I'm sure they could both do fantastic jobs - I'd love to see a brilliant horse ace a dog show - but why?
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Awake is one of my middle DT albums, but now after thinking about it, it has some pretty awesome songs, so it would probably be a bit higher now ^^
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That said, Awake's main difference is the lack of bombast, which is what the band excels in. It is a nice change of pace.
Absolutely. It seems odd that one of the favourite albums is the one that doesn't play to their strengths at all. It's a bit like putting a lovely horse in a dog show. Or getting a talented accountant to work as a gym teacher. I'm sure they could both do fantastic jobs - I'd love to see a brilliant horse ace a dog show - but why?
I'm kind of confused. Alright, so Awake isn't bombast and flamboyant like most DT. Even if those things are usually the band's strengths, if they do something else well, then why not?
Are you saying that on Awake, DT didn't do subtle stuff well, or that you just don't like subtle stuff in the first place?
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That said, Awake's main difference is the lack of bombast, which is what the band excels in. It is a nice change of pace.
Absolutely. It seems odd that one of the favourite albums is the one that doesn't play to their strengths at all. It's a bit like putting a lovely horse in a dog show. Or getting a talented accountant to work as a gym teacher. I'm sure they could both do fantastic jobs - I'd love to see a brilliant horse ace a dog show - but why?
I'm kind of confused. Alright, so Awake isn't bombast and flamboyant like most DT. Even if those things are usually the band's strengths, if they do something else well, then why not?
Are you saying that on Awake, DT didn't do subtle stuff well, or that you just don't like subtle stuff in the first place?
Neither.
I'm saying that on Awake, Dream Theater aren't playing to their strengths. I'm not saying it's not very well done - it's a dead well composed album - but it seems a bit odd for them to be off teaching gymastics when they're clearly more comfortable accounting.
Essentially, when they put out Images & Words, it was instantly the best in its genre. Nobody can write technical progressive metal better than Dream Theater, which is probably why they're the flag-flyers for the genre. The broodier stuff, I'd argue, they did a very good job at writing with Awake, but it's hardly them in their element. Which isn't a notch against the band, it just makes it the idea that it's a fan favourite a little unusual. It's like the fans of an olympic pole-vaulter going "look how well he swims!" It's not wrong to be impressed with his swimming, but it seems a bit of an odd choice for the main attraction.
I did think it was a dodgy analogy as I was writing it, though, so I may now be defending the indefensible. I just thought of "a lovely horse in a dog show" and wanted to use the line.
This is a discussion that is only occurring because I liked the phrase "lovely horse."
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I find LaBrie's singing to be extremely enjoyable on Awake. The songs have a darker mood to them (which I like). I AM A HUGE FUCKING FAN OF THE MIRROR! That song is just fucking fantastic.
I love popping this CD in the car and just blasting it and singing along. Also, the tunes are super catchy. 6:00, Caught In A Web, Innocence Faded, Scarred, Voices, Lie, Space-Dye Vest, The Mirror are all great songs to sing along to and enjoy.
It may not be their best album, but it is one of their best.
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Essentially, when they put out Images & Words, it was instantly the best in its genre. Nobody can write technical progressive metal better than Dream Theater, which is probably why they're the flag-flyers for the genre. The broodier stuff, I'd argue, they did a very good job at writing with Awake, but it's hardly them in their element. Which isn't a notch against the band, it just makes it the idea that it's a fan favourite a little unusual.
Alternatively, if you see Awake as them being out of their element, then someone who prefers them "in their element" has a load of albums to choose as their favourite, where as someone who prefers the style of Awake only has one, since they never did that again.
Also Awake is a huge favourite on this forum, but I don't know if it's really that much of a fan favourite in general. I saw a lot of stuff on the internet about Dream Theater before I came to this forum and none of it ever led me to believe Awake was one of their most popular albums. In fact Awake was one of the albums I heard about least, and when people do talk about how good it is it's often like a footnote to Images and Words.
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I did think it was a dodgy analogy as I was writing it, though, so I may now be defending the indefensible. I just thought of "a lovely horse in a dog show" and wanted to use the line.
This is a discussion that is only occurring because I liked the phrase "lovely horse."
You're a lovely horse... Wait. I don't even know if that's a compliment. You're lovely, stop there.
I think that probably what has happened is that talking about the album on this forum has made everyone think Awake is more different than it actually is, myself included. :lol
I don't know. Maybe it isn't playing to their strengths, but I find it hard to say that when it's so damn good. Maybe playing subtle stuff is a strength as well, they just do it so rarely, we don't know it!
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Also Awake is a huge favourite on this forum, but I don't know if it's really that much of a fan favourite in general. I saw a lot of stuff on the internet about Dream Theater before I came to this forum and none of it ever led me to believe Awake was one of their most popular albums. In fact Awake was one of the albums I heard about least, and when people do talk about how good it is it's often like a footnote to Images and Words.
It tends to be a favorite amongst old-school DT fans. Going back to the 90s, when the "which DT album is your favorite?" posts would appear on the ytsejam mailing list, the results would usually be Awake 1st, with I&W a close second. After SFAM came out, it would often be one of the top picks, as well. Over the years, though, I've seen a lot of those old-school fans become disenchanted with DT and leave the DT community. So, the poll results now tend to skew more toward newer albums.
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I'm saying that on Awake, Dream Theater aren't playing to their strengths. I'm not saying it's not very well done - it's a dead well composed album - but it seems a bit odd for them to be off teaching gymastics when they're clearly more comfortable accounting.
Essentially, when they put out Images & Words, it was instantly the best in its genre. Nobody can write technical progressive metal better than Dream Theater, which is probably why they're the flag-flyers for the genre. The broodier stuff, I'd argue, they did a very good job at writing with Awake, but it's hardly them in their element. Which isn't a notch against the band, it just makes it the idea that it's a fan favourite a little unusual. It's like the fans of an olympic pole-vaulter going "look how well he swims!" It's not wrong to be impressed with his swimming, but it seems a bit of an odd choice for the main attraction.
I like this. This is basically where I'm coming from.
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I don't get some of you people, so you would take a One-song-only album like Octavarium, but not an album with no weak points, diversity, awesome atmosphere, awesome production, awesome vocals and a lot of technichal shit?
As a whole Awake is consistent, every song is great and overall is one of their best albums(#1 for me.)
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it is a great album.... but it has definatly got his lows.... but i think the lows and highs are all personal.
i have never heard a perfect album...because if dream theater would have written the perfect record they could have stopped after that.
i think thats the goal of every musician, to write the perfect song/album. ...but the next song will always be better.....
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I do think you're understating even the quality of the individual songs though. The worst song on Awake (probably The Mirror or Lie) is still better than 90% of DT's post-SDOIT songs. IMO.
-J
Hit the nail right on the head. Great reply.
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I began listening to Dream Theater with Systematic Chaos, and Awake came second. I didn't start out liking it very much, but as I was still figuring out what music I liked and what I didn't I kept it in my rotation. One day I found myself listening to Voices and thinking... wow. There's just so much to this song- the enigmatic lyrics, the dynamic vocals, the build ups and soft sections and heavy parts... There's just so much to that song, in particular, that I eventually became drawn into the rest of Dream Theater. But it's still one of my favorites, and Awake is the album which is the strongest, IMO, in those qualities.
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- Awake has 5 letters; JESUS has 5 letters...
:facepalm:
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so does SATAN wha'ts your point?
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I think it has its good share of stinkers, ranging from horrible to absolutely boring: Scarred, 6:00, Lie, CIAW, IF and SDV. I never listen to those songs.
6:00? Really?
Damn.
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Neither.
I'm saying that on Awake, Dream Theater aren't playing to their strengths. I'm not saying it's not very well done - it's a dead well composed album - but it seems a bit odd for them to be off teaching gymastics when they're clearly more comfortable accounting.
Essentially, when they put out Images & Words, it was instantly the best in its genre. Nobody can write technical progressive metal better than Dream Theater, which is probably why they're the flag-flyers for the genre. The broodier stuff, I'd argue, they did a very good job at writing with Awake, but it's hardly them in their element. Which isn't a notch against the band, it just makes it the idea that it's a fan favourite a little unusual. It's like the fans of an olympic pole-vaulter going "look how well he swims!" It's not wrong to be impressed with his swimming, but it seems a bit of an odd choice for the main attraction.
I did think it was a dodgy analogy as I was writing it, though, so I may now be defending the indefensible. I just thought of "a lovely horse in a dog show" and wanted to use the line.
This is a discussion that is only occurring because I liked the phrase "lovely horse."
Here's the problem though, DT got most of it's critical accolades by not writing the bombastic stuff. Awake was DT under control of their bombastic side, being more song oriented, and the result was an incredible album that raised a lot of eyebrows from even the less than casual fan. In recent years since DT has become mostly bombastic a lot of early casual fans who enjoyed I&W thru SDOIT have lost interest. This is at least my perception based on comments outside this forum that people make. What I usually hear is..."I appreciate their skill but I can't listen to their wankery anymore. I really like old DT though." And I tend to agree with this sentiment as I hardly listen to new DT.
But, perhaps the bombastic song style is what is capturing new and younger fans who want to be mesmerized by a flurry of notes. I just don't think it's what's gonna gain them any critical accolades.
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- Awake has 5 letters; JESUS has 5 letters...
:facepalm:
n00b
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- Awake has 5 letters; JESUS has 5 letters...
:facepalm:
n00b
Exactly, it was a joke, and also a semi-reference to this (@ 7:02-7:40):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw_CtUR9Lh0&feature=related
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But, perhaps the bombastic song style is what is capturing new and younger fans who want to be mesmerized by a flurry of notes. I just don't think it's what's gonna gain them any critical accolades.
I'm not sure why anyone should care about critical accolades, most critics I know are such snobs. DT make music that they like and that most of their fans like, that's all that should matter to an artist.
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But, perhaps the bombastic song style is what is capturing new and younger fans who want to be mesmerized by a flurry of notes. I just don't think it's what's gonna gain them any critical accolades.
I'm not sure why anyone should care about critical accolades, most critics I know are such snobs. DT make music that they like and that most of their fans like, that's all that should matter to an artist.
True, but i'm not talking about winning a Grammy. I'm talking about what a more casual listener might appreciate and critique as well written music. It seems that in the earlier years they were more appreciated for their song craft and in recent years are more despised because of the lack of song craft.
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Bottom line is, there are no real shiners, no Learning to Live's, no Octavarium's, and the only two that could possibly qualify have extremely blehhh sections (Scarred) or are at the bottom of the barrel of DT's epics (Voices).
As for the other songs...
6:00 : Fun song, not really anything special.
Caught in a Web: Arguably the worst DT song.
Innocence Faded: *yawn*
The Silent Man: Eh, it's ok but nothing special.
The Mirror: Unique song, but not really a shiner. Middle of the road at best.
Lie: Awesome riffage, but the rest of the song is not that great.
That's like, half the album right there.
Only redeeming factors are Erotomania, Voices, two minutes of Scarred, and SDV (and arguably not even that). Compare with Octavarium, for example, which has the title track, These Walls, The Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons...pretty much flawless songs all the way through...and arguably Panic Attack and The Answer Lies Within.
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While Awake might not be one of my favorite DT albums, it has ONE thing that I haven't found on any other DT album yet and that is atmosphere. The songs really makes you think and wonder and it feels like you're walking in a dark forest all alone when listening to it, it's really moody. That's what I like about, you feel something (not including the "holy crap, this is good"-feel). Also, It really feels as if the songs belong to each other where with the later albums, it's just one song to another. The Awake songs have similar sound and feels like they are a telling a story, all closely resembling one another. It has this sorta grey-ish sound to it that I really like and can't put my finger on it.
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Bottom line is, there are no real shiners, no Learning to Live's, no Octavarium's, and the only two that could possibly qualify have extremely blehhh sections (Scarred) or are at the bottom of the barrel of DT's epics (Voices).
As for the other songs...
6:00 : Fun song, not really anything special.
Caught in a Web: Arguably the worst DT song.
Innocence Faded: *yawn*
The Silent Man: Eh, it's ok but nothing special.
The Mirror: Unique song, but not really a shiner. Middle of the road at best.
Lie: Awesome riffage, but the rest of the song is not that great.
That's like, half the album right there.
Only redeeming factors are Erotomania, Voices, two minutes of Scarred, and SDV (and arguably not even that). Compare with Octavarium, for example, which has the title track, These Walls, The Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons...pretty much flawless songs all the way through...and arguably Panic Attack and The Answer Lies Within.
Your view of what makes a good song then is dramatically different from mine if you consider all those songs nothing special to arguably their worst. Are you a newer fan or discover DT with their newer material? Perhaps your taste is skewed towards their newer stuff. Admittedly mine is skewed towards their older material.
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Bottom line is, there are no real shiners, no Learning to Live's, no Octavarium's, and the only two that could possibly qualify have extremely blehhh sections (Scarred) or are at the bottom of the barrel of DT's epics (Voices).
As for the other songs...
6:00 : Fun song, not really anything special.
Caught in a Web: Arguably the worst DT song.
Innocence Faded: *yawn*
The Silent Man: Eh, it's ok but nothing special.
The Mirror: Unique song, but not really a shiner. Middle of the road at best.
Lie: Awesome riffage, but the rest of the song is not that great.
That's like, half the album right there.
Only redeeming factors are Erotomania, Voices, two minutes of Scarred, and SDV (and arguably not even that). Compare with Octavarium, for example, which has the title track, These Walls, The Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons...pretty much flawless songs all the way through...and arguably Panic Attack and The Answer Lies Within.
All of those songs off of Octavarium aren't even in the same echelon of musicality of any song off Awake. I do find it funny how people pass on "The Silent Man" even though it showcases some guitar playing Petrucci rarely ever does. Sure he's done some acoustic work since but just the whole feel of that song is really cool.
On a side note I never understood why people liberally throw the word "epic" around. I would never consider "Voices" one, it's just a really fantastic song that happens to run a bit long.
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It has this sorta grey-ish sound to it that I really like and can't put my finger on it.
oh and what you said about atmosphere, too
awake is...indescribable.
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Your view of what makes a good song then is dramatically different from mine if you consider all those songs nothing special to arguably their worst.
Exactly. I would rank them something like this:
1. Scarred - Spectacularly good song. Took me awhile to get used to the abrupt transitions back in the day, but once it clicked, this song has been a top 10 and is likely to remain there.
2. The Mirror - Excellent usage of a very small number of musical ideas that get subtly changed so many ways thoughout the song. Brilliant.
3. Lie - Almost as good as The Mirror, but falls just short despite being more dynamic.
4. Voices - Not sure why H referred to this song as an "epic." It isn't. But it is still very, very good. The vocal parts are written and performed exceptionally well.
5. 6:00 - Yet another example of DT accomplishing a lot without trying to do too much. Another winner.
6. Erotomania - Great instrumental that has tons of energy and tons of neat ideas that somehow work together despite being so different.
7. Caught in a Web - This is the first time the album starts to feel like it is dropping off a bit. I hated this song for a long time, mainly because the keyboard parts are just SO bad. I can now appreciate it and like it considerably, but it is not one of my favorites. I would love a good live version with Jordan changing up the keyboard tone just a bit.
8. Lifting Shadows Off a Dream - I like the spacey feel of this song and the outro (but UGH! That "out of tune" sounding keyboard patch again! >:( Kill it with fire!), which bring this song up a notch from "do not like" to "yeah, that's not bad."
9. The Silent Man - The song really does nothing for me, although I really like what they did with it on Live Scenes. I don't hate it, but don't really like it either.
10. Innocence Faded - I used to hate it, but seeing it on Score made me listen differently and gain a bit of appreciation for it. Still not crazy about it, but I don't hate it either.
11. Space-Dye Vest - The only song on the album I really don't like at all.
I guess I would put the album in 4 tiers:
1-6: REALLY like
7-8: Like
9-10: Meh--I don't dislike
11: Don't like
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Your view of what makes a good song then is dramatically different from mine
I'm finding this thread fascinating for that reason.
In general, my opinions diverge so far from those of Ħ or reneranucci that it's kind of odd to think that we are actually fans of the same band at all. That's interesting to me.
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Awake for me was my "First Love" w/DT. It was a new release and it just hauled off and kicked me in the teeth. Yes, there has been some great music since, but I consider it a very well rounded effort that ranks #2 for me behind I&W's
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Are you a newer fan or discover DT with their newer material? Perhaps your taste is skewed towards their newer stuff. Admittedly mine is skewed towards their older material.
Timewise, I'm a late-comer, but I started with SDOIT, then moved to OVM, then got IAW, etc. So I've bounced around a lot, and my ranking is pretty well distributed.
Based on bosk's description and on what other people are saying, it seems like Awake's charm is its minimalism (like with The Mirror and 6:00) and that is why a lot of people like it.
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I think people like it because its a musically mature album.
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I think people like it because its a musically mature album.
You keep saying that but what does that even mean? Pretty much all of DT's catalogue is "musically mature".
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Honestly, Awake is probably my favorite DT album. I can't even really explain why; it just is.
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Alright. I'm bored, so I'm going to do this.
1) People keep saying Awake is musically mature. What does that mean?
Awake has the least soloing of any Dream Theater album. It has 11 songs, and only 2 have a keyboard solo.
Awake is the most atmospheric Dream Theater album.
Awake is the only Dream Theater album that isn't afraid to get quiet for extended amounts of time. We're talking about TSM and LSOAD.
Basically: To me, Dream Theater have always been 1/3 prog, 1/3 metal, 1/3 individualism. Awake is 1/2 prog, 1/2 metal. The individualism is barely there.
2) People keep saying Awake is the best lyrically. Why?
You could dissect the lyrics for years. They reveal information about relationships within the band and why the band broke up in the first place. They are, in a way, a document of the band's inner workings circa 1994.
The subject matter of the lyrics is the most emotional of any Dream Theater album. Nearly every song has to do with deteriorating relationships. We essentially get two sides: Petrucci and Moore. Both look at the present with disdain, but where Petrucci looks to the future with hope, Moore looks to the future with despair. The contrast is numbing.
How the lyrics are written is very creative.
In summary, no other Dream Theater album has lyrics as consistently (beginning to end) informative, relating, or creative.
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I think people like it because its a musically mature album.
You keep saying that but what does that even mean? Pretty much all of DT's catalogue is "musically mature".
In my humble opinion it is the only album they've made that is actually sincere in its seriousness and on a critically respectable level. Like ariich said there's going to be that "who cares about critics" mindset but to either the casual listener or someone who takes music a bit seriously Awake doesn't really have an eyeroll factor the way most of their other albums do. Are they fun to listen to? Hell yeah they are, but music is still an art form and at times demands a little respect. The identity the album has is completely unlike any other they've done and as has been mentioned before the whole atmosphere is 100% recognized. It makes the album come across like a collect of songs that actually give a damn whereas I can't say that about the more recent albums.
In movie terms:
Images and Words is Star Wars - incredibly fun and enthralling experience
Awake is The Empire Strikes Back - brooding but the only one you can truly take seriously
Falling Into Infinity is Return Of The Jedi - quirky but ultimately a satisfying journey despite some lame parts
Octavarium, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds are the Star Wars prequels
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I think people like it because its a musically mature album.
You keep saying that but what does that even mean? Pretty much all of DT's catalogue is "musically mature".
In my humble opinion it is the only album they've made that is actually sincere in its seriousness and on a critically respectable level. Like ariich said there's going to be that "who cares about critics" mindset but to either the casual listener or someone who takes music a bit seriously Awake doesn't really have an eyeroll factor the way most of their other albums do. Are they fun to listen to? Hell yeah they are, but music is still an art form and at times demands a little respect. The identity the album has is completely unlike any other they've done and as has been mentioned before the whole atmosphere is 100% recognized. It makes the album come across like a collect of songs that actually give a damn whereas I can't say that about the more recent albums.
In movie terms:
Images and Words is Star Wars - incredibly fun and enthralling experience
Awake is The Empire Strikes Back - brooding but the only one you can truly take seriously
Falling Into Infinity is Return Of The Jedi - quirky but ultimately a satisfying journey despite some lame parts
Octavarium, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds are the Star Wars prequels
I love this analysis.
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Alright. I'm bored, so I'm going to do this.
Me too.
1) People keep saying Awake is musically mature. What does that mean?
Awake has the least soloing of any Dream Theater album. It has 11 songs, and only 2 have a keyboard solo.
How does less soloing = musically mature?
Awake is the most atmospheric Dream Theater album.
If so, then barely. And really it's not.
Awake is the only Dream Theater album that isn't afraid to get quiet for extended amounts of time. We're talking about TSM and LSOAD.
Last I checked, Awake isn't the only album to do this. Even Octavarium has quiet bits (The Answer Lies Within, intro to Sacrificed Sons).
Basically: To me, Dream Theater have always been 1/3 prog, 1/3 metal, 1/3 individualism. Awake is 1/2 prog, 1/2 metal. The individualism is barely there.
Are you saying that individualism = poor music maturity? If you aren't, then why are you including it in your case for Awake as a musically mature album? If you are....well that's just silly.
2) People keep saying Awake is the best lyrically. Why?
You could dissect the lyrics for years. They reveal information about relationships within the band and why the band broke up in the first place. They are, in a way, a document of the band's inner workings circa 1994.
Complex, mysterious, cryptic lyrics =/= good lyrics. In fact I'd argue the opposite. Although I agree that there are some lyrical highlights, they are really not a notch above DT's other material.
The subject matter of the lyrics is the most emotional of any Dream Theater album. Nearly every song has to do with deteriorating relationships. We essentially get two sides: Petrucci and Moore. Both look at the present with disdain, but where Petrucci looks to the future with hope, Moore looks to the future with despair. The contrast is numbing.
I think you are imagining things. Yes, KM's lyrics are morbid, but JP's are too, for the most part. See Voices and Caught in a Web for example.
How the lyrics are written is very creative.
Ok, yes. But any more so than other albums?
In summary, no other Dream Theater album has lyrics as consistently (beginning to end) informative, relating, or creative.
I wouldn't really say that. I mean, yes Scarred, Voices, and KM's stuff (sans Lie) have great lyrics. But their are some lame-o lyrics (like The Mirror, the aforementioned Lie, Innocence Faded/The Silent Man which are pretentiously profound, and Caught in a Web which is eh).
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Tastes innit.
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I love when people attack the older lyrics words like "cryptic" always pop up, as if even attempting real poetry somehow automatically makes the lyrics worse. Every time someone thinks or writes that they should take a good hard serious look at the lyrical attempts of the last decade. I mean it. Sit down, really look at them and go "yeah, this stuff is acceptable". I just can not fathom how some people can shrug off truly complacent attempts of writing lyrics but slam those that actually have some substance and meaning behind them because they're a little abstract.
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I love when people attack the older lyrics words like "cryptic" always pop up, as if even attempting real poetry somehow automatically makes the lyrics worse. Every time someone thinks or writes that they should take a good hard serious look at the lyrical attempts of the last decade. I mean it. Sit down, really look at them and go "yeah, this stuff is acceptable". I just can not fathom how some people can shrug off truly complacent attempts of writing lyrics but slam those that actually have some substance and meaning behind them because they're a little abstract.
Orcus, I don't think you've backed up anything you've said in this thread with actual example.
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Because that's not how I argue. Plus looking at how you've responded to TOX it's pretty clear it wouldn't matter anyways.
Examples would do no good in this case because I'm trying to convey a feeling that is just so common sense and logical to me that it's hard to really describe using time stamps and lyrical passages.
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stuff
Orcus, I don't think you've backed up anything you've said in this thread with actual example.
Oh it's on now.
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11. Space-Dye Vest - The only song on the album I really don't like at all.
*all sassy like*
oh no you didn't.
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Because that's not how I argue. Plus looking at how you've responded to TOX it's pretty clear it wouldn't matter anyways.
Examples would do no good in this case because I'm trying to convey a feeling that is just so common sense and logical to me that it's hard to really describe using time stamps and lyrical passages.
How is this post supposed to convince anyone (let alone me)?
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Because it's painfully obvious you're not going to let up until you hear exactly what you want, whatever that is. So I didn't explain the way you wanted with charts and time stamps because this isn't freakin' debate club. I've spoken my piece exactly the way I wanted to present it so I'd opt to just drop the whole thing. I seriously couldn't add any more if I wanted.
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Some albums don't click like others and this is one. I like it but it never bowled me over like I & W.
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Because that's not how I argue. Plus looking at how you've responded to TOX it's pretty clear it wouldn't matter anyways.
Examples would do no good in this case because I'm trying to convey a feeling that is just so common sense and logical to me that it's hard to really describe using time stamps and lyrical passages.
How is this post supposed to convince anyone (let alone me)?
just to debate your point, I have actually read through all of your posts, and I just don't see the correlation between why you would open a thread asking "Awale = #1 DT album?" and then debate all of the relevant points that people make without supporting your OP without any evidence. I mean, orcus made a good point, and if you're going to debate that point, at least give some reasons why.
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Because that's not how I argue. Plus looking at how you've responded to TOX it's pretty clear it wouldn't matter anyways.
Examples would do no good in this case because I'm trying to convey a feeling that is just so common sense and logical to me that it's hard to really describe using time stamps and lyrical passages.
How is this post supposed to convince anyone (let alone me)?
Hell, I'm not sure how anything said by anyone in this thread is going to convince anyone of anything.
The thread would have been better if it had ended after the first reply.
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The thread would have been better if it had ended after the first reply.
If you google Tastes innit, the 4th hit is this thread :lol
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Because that's not how I argue. Plus looking at how you've responded to TOX it's pretty clear it wouldn't matter anyways.
Examples would do no good in this case because I'm trying to convey a feeling that is just so common sense and logical to me that it's hard to really describe using time stamps and lyrical passages.
How is this post supposed to convince anyone (let alone me)?
just to debate your point, I have actually read through all of your posts, and I just don't see the correlation between why you would open a thread asking "Awale = #1 DT album?" and then debate all of the relevant points that people make without supporting your OP without any evidence. I mean, orcus made a good point, and if you're going to debate that point, at least give some reasons why.
Okay.
First off, this claim: it is the only album they've made that is actually sincere in its seriousness and on a critically respectable level
Really? The only one? Yes, I agree with you that it is serious, I agree with you that it is sincere, and I agree that it is critically respectable. People here are getting the idea that I don't like Awake. Let me make this clear, I love Awake. But it seems like a lot of the pro-Awake people like it more because of how it compares to other albums and stands out, rather than liking it for what it is separate from the rest. In other words, it seems like a lot of the Awake love comes from external dislike of other albums, rather than genuine like for what Awake really is. This relates to your claim, because your claim is, in fact, a comparison, in the sense that you used the word "only" the way that you did.
Awake doesn't really have an eyeroll factor the way most of their other albums do.
Umm......."until the circle breaks, and wisdom lies ahead"? "Mother Mary quite contrary?" The album is chock-full of eye-roll factors. And by the way, again you magnify Awake by pissing on the other albums.
In fact, I'm not even going to quote the rest of that post since it is basically a piss on the other albums.
I love when people attack the older lyrics words like "cryptic" always pop up, as if even attempting real poetry somehow automatically makes the lyrics worse.
Aside from the sarcastic quip, you assume I haven't looked at the lyrics. Let's run through an example, shall we? Good ol' Innocence Faded...possibly the most "cryptic" lyrics you'll get.
"Animation breathes a cloudless wine. Fascination leaves the doubting blind." Ok, neat little double rhyme, neat rythym. But the lyrics make no sense. John Petrucci is not God and I would bet money that he just pulled that out of his ass.
"Until the circle breaks and wisdom lies ahead, the faithful live awake, the rest remain misled." Still no sense.
"Some will transcend spinning years, one as if time disappears." Yep, no meaning.
Et cetera.
Look, there's a difference between being a lyrical Charles Darwin, writing beautiful prose in a meaningful manner, and being someone who just schlops a bunch of words together to sound profound. I don't mean that the song's meaning has to be obvious, but honestly there ought to be at least some extractable meaning or it just comes across as pretentious. The Count of Tuscany's lyrics are better than Innocence Faded's.
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Upon just a couple minutes of reflection:
Animation
breathes a cloudless mind
Actually doing something makes the mind clear
Fascination
leaves the doubting blind
Whereas simply pondering something makes you completely blind in your doubt
Until the circle breaks and wisdom lies ahead
until life ends and it's clear what wisdom really is
the faithful live Awake
the faithful do their best to live
the rest remain misled
and the rest are led astray
so I don't think these lyrics are impenetrably cryptic (whether I'm on the right track or not)
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Tastes innit.
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Really? The only one? Yes, I agree with you that it is serious, I agree with you that it is sincere, and I agree that it is critically respectable. People here are getting the idea that I don't like Awake. Let me make this clear, I love Awake. But it seems like a lot of the pro-Awake people like it more because of how it compares to other albums and stands out, rather than liking it for what it is separate from the rest. In other words, it seems like a lot of the Awake love comes from external dislike of other albums, rather than genuine like for what Awake really is. This relates to your claim, because your claim is, in fact, a comparison, in the sense that you used the word "only" the way that you did.
Listen, champ, you did leave out my very next sentence in which I said the other albums are fun to listen to. That in and of itself is a perfectly fine quality of an album. I only compare Awake's seriousness in that it's the only album I personally feel is on another level, one where you can analyze its intricacies and find some really fascinating stuff. TOX did a better job of explaining the meat of that part.
In fact, I'm not even going to quote the rest of that post since it is basically a piss on the other albums.
Only lyrically. Don't put words in my mouth.
Look, there's a difference between being a lyrical Charles Darwin, writing beautiful prose in a meaningful manner, and being someone who just schlops a bunch of words together to sound profound. I don't mean that the song's meaning has to be obvious, but honestly there ought to be at least some extractable meaning or it just comes across as pretentious. The Count of Tuscany's lyrics are better than Innocence Faded's.
There's more than two ways about it, dude. You're making is seem as if when someone tries some fancy wordplay they're probably getting a bit full of it and their work suffers. That's almost getting a bit anti-intellectual, especially with the bolded part. You're taking away from the fact that back then Petrucci, Portnoy and Moore actually did have talent with the pen or at least took some time to hone their craft, Moore even still showcasing it in his projects. Those lines from IF might appear a bit abstract and whatnot but nothing has made me laugh out loud in public than the first time I heard "ALL THE FINEST WINES IMPROVE WITH AGE". If you're going to counter with a song at least pick a song where the tone of the lyrics match the tone of the music.
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You have to look at it this way...Kevin Moore wasn't really into it, and you can tell by his playing. It doesn't have the heart and feel of Images and Words, in that cd you can tell he is enjoying himself. The songs on Awake sound dark because of that.
That is why I see some ranking it as their best, as I do. But its not my favorite.
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To take Orcus' example in this post: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=23027.msg881330#msg881330 as Empire Strikes back. Lots going on that you can really latch onto, and despite a few lame parts, the audience goes, "Yeah, I can relate to most of that." Despite the fact that there were a few things I thought were off, 90% of it had me wanting to stand up and cheer.
The remaining posts are like...the Teletubbies trying to re-enact the prequels. Just beyond unabashed fail to the highest degree.
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To take Orcus' example in this post: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=23027.msg881330#msg881330 as Empire Strikes back. Lots going on that you can really latch onto, and despite a few lame parts, the audience goes, "Yeah, I can relate to most of that." Despite the fact that there were a few things I thought were off, 90% of it had me wanting to stand up and cheer.
The remaining posts are like...the Teletubbies trying to re-enact the prequels. Just beyond unabashed fail to the highest degree.
:lol
If by "remaining posts" you mean orcus's remaining posts. ;)
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Pffft, don't act like you wouldn't wanna see Teletubbies and Star Wars together in a magnum opus.
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Bottom line is, there are no real shiners, no Learning to Live's, no Octavarium's, and the only two that could possibly qualify have extremely blehhh sections (Scarred) or are at the bottom of the barrel of DT's epics (Voices).
As for the other songs...
6:00 : Fun song, not really anything special.
Caught in a Web: Arguably the worst DT song.
Innocence Faded: *yawn*
The Silent Man: Eh, it's ok but nothing special.
The Mirror: Unique song, but not really a shiner. Middle of the road at best.
Lie: Awesome riffage, but the rest of the song is not that great.
That's like, half the album right there.
Only redeeming factors are Erotomania, Voices, two minutes of Scarred, and SDV (and arguably not even that). Compare with Octavarium, for example, which has the title track, These Walls, The Root of All Evil, Sacrificed Sons...pretty much flawless songs all the way through...and arguably Panic Attack and The Answer Lies Within.
Going on like this though is as though you're just expecting everyone to automatically agree with your opinions, which lots of people clearly do not. I agree with you that Awake doesn't have any song that stands out as much as songs from other albums, and that Voices, while a great song, is one of the weakest of DT songs like it. But Cuahgt In A Web being the worst song, Scarred having terrible sectios, aetc. just because you think that it isn't really evidence. Someone could do that with any DT album, like the one you say has flawless songs.
The Root Of All Evil : Fun song, not really that special.
Sacrificed Sons: Scraping the bottom of the barrel of DT's epics
These Walls: Eh it's Ok, nothing special
The Answer Lies Within: *yawn*
Panic Attack Unique song, but not really a shiner Middle of the road at best
Never Enough: Arguably DT's worst song.
OCtavarium: Cuould be a shiner but has extremely blehhhh sections.
Now I don't agree with those (or at least all of them) but it's pretty feasible that someone could think that. Just because they do though, it doesn't make them saying it an undisputable fact, and that everyone has to judge the album based on their opinions of the songs.
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I hear you. I guess I just don't get. Everyone is hearing the same song, and assuming everyone's ears are working properly, I don't see how we come to such different conclusions unless there is some type of phycological trickery involved, such as the mental "I-like-Awake-because-it's-different" thing that has arisen for whatever reason.
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I don't get DT fans who don't like Awake. That album, at least to me, really represents the band firing on all cylinders. Sure, some of the hunger they had in them on Images and Words is gone (if there are weak points, they're mostly in the form of Kevin's contributions), but on the flipside you can also hear that some important lessons have been learned, and the cheesiest aspects of Images and Words have been shelved. And you could tell they didn't care at all about having a hit this time around, either. Awake is definitely the Dream Theater fan's Dream Theater record. I can understand it not being some people's number 1 album, or in the top 3, but any fan who doesn't at least have it (and Images and Words) in their top 5 is nuts.
Stuff that's changed since Awake:
--James, to me, is about the same. A lot of fans swear by his Awake and Live at the Marquee performances, but honestly I don't think it's all that. James' voice may have thinned a bit since Awake, but I'd say most of his studio performances since then have been just as good, just in different ways.
--John's gotten alot better, and I know I'm not alone in thinking that his solos on the last couple albums especially have been some of the best things about them. Unfortunately, his literary talent has "withered."
--Myung's not as present, which is a shame.
--Rudess is just better than Kevin. Everyone acts like Kevin was most tasteful or something but I want to pull my hair out every time I hear those fucking pitch bends on Awake. Jordan doesn't write lyrics, but Kevin's lyrics were really hit or miss. Lie is an awful song. Sadly Rudess does have a few less "win!" moments per album than Kevin did.
--I guess we'll see about Mangini!
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Awake is definitely the Dream Theater fan's Dream Theater record. I can understand it not being some people's number 1 album, or in the top 3, but any fan who doesn't at least have it (and Images and Words) in their top 5 is nuts.
I think a more accurate statement is: Any fan who thinks their way of viewing a particular song or album is the only correct way and everyone who thinks differently is "nuts" is a presumptuous dick.
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Awake is definitely the Dream Theater fan's Dream Theater record. I can understand it not being some people's number 1 album, or in the top 3, but any fan who doesn't at least have it (and Images and Words) in their top 5 is nuts.
I think a more accurate statement is: Any fan who thinks their way of viewing a particular song or album is the only correct way and everyone who thinks differently is "nuts" is a presumptuous dick.
Good thing I never said my way is the only "correct" way.
Also, that burns. That reminds me of this one thread where someone said "Anyone who thinks gays are sinners is a bigot" and got banned for it. But I digress... :biggrin:
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But I digress... :biggrin:
Yes, you do.
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Anyone that says Awake is not the best album is a bigot.
amidoinitrite?
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Anyone who thinks dicks are gay is a sinner.
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Anyone that says Awake is not the best album is a bigot.
amidoinitrite?
But Images is the best???
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When I was awake today, I ate a chicken's albumen.
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Seriously though Hayden (I'm just checking out the actual posts in the thread now), if you think Innocence Faded isn't about anything you should read into it more deeply. ToX provided an interpretation of that song that just slayed me awhile back, when I'm pretty sure I was posting things similar to what you are about Awake's lyrics.
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Anyone that says Awake is not the best album is a bigot.
amidoinitrite?
But Images is the best???
You bigot, you.
Everyone knows that SDOIT is the best them.
Wait....I guess that makes me a bigot too.
:-\
:justjen
:victorydance: Hooray for bigots! :victorydance:
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I hear you. I guess I just don't get. Everyone is hearing the same song, and assuming everyone's ears are working properly, I don't see how we come to such different conclusions unless there is some type of phycological trickery involved, such as the mental "I-like-Awake-because-it's-different" thing that has arisen for whatever reason.
:rollin :rollin
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Anyone that says Awake is not the best album is a bigot.
amidoinitrite?
But Images is the best???
You bigot, you.
Everyone knows that SDOIT is the best them.
Wait....I guess that makes me a bigot too.
:-\
:justjen
:victorydance: Hooray for bigots! :victorydance:
Oh Christ there is so much bigotry in this thread! I definitely don't rate awake as their best, in my opinion anyone that rates awake as the best DT album is a bigot. Because Falling into Infinity is clearly the greatest DT album ever created.
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I hear you. I guess I just don't get. Everyone is hearing the same song, and assuming everyone's ears are working properly, I don't see how we come to such different conclusions unless there is some type of phycological trickery involved, such as the mental "I-like-Awake-because-it's-different" thing that has arisen for whatever reason.
Welcome to the wonderful world of opinions. Now until you provide empirical evidence yours is the correct opinion...
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It ranks 4th for me so I'm no Awake fanboy or fan of the elitism it inspires, but I honestly cannot fathom where H is coming from in some of his arguments.
Musically mature = cohesive, focused song structures, no out-of-place soloing, serious lyrical subjects
I mean, that should be pretty obvious shouldn't it?
This coming from someone who usually LOVES the wild soloing.
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Ugh this thread should have ended after the first reply. :P
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I hear you. I guess I just don't get. Everyone is hearing the same song, and assuming everyone's ears are working properly, I don't see how we come to such different conclusions unless there is some type of phycological trickery involved, such as the mental "I-like-Awake-because-it's-different" thing that has arisen for whatever reason.
THIS POST.
OH GOD THIS POST.
:facepalm: :facepalm:
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Ugh this thread should have ended after the first reply. :P
scratchin your own back i see
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(https://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/129140530782930652.jpg)
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:lol
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Well, I agree with just about everything Orcus has said in this thread.
As for me, I would definitely say it's their best album. It's technical and heavy, but filled with soul. Scarred is still a song that gets at me because I can empathize with it. DT's lyrics today are very bland and uninteresting, but the lyrics on Awake actually sounded like they took thought to craft. Scarred and Space-Dye Vest are still my 2 favorite DT tracks, though I rarely listen to DT anymore.
Sadly, Awake was their last album worth noting. Everything after it, or at least after SFAM, anyway, is just watered-down prog metal that isn't very interesting at all, despite the occasional catchy riff or melody.
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I hear you. I guess I just don't get. Everyone is hearing the same song, and assuming everyone's ears are working properly, I don't see how we come to such different conclusions unless there is some type of phycological trickery involved, such as the mental "I-like-Awake-because-it's-different" thing that has arisen for whatever reason.
Are you kidding me?
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I hear you. I guess I just don't get. Everyone is hearing the same song, and assuming everyone's ears are working properly, I don't see how we come to such different conclusions unless there is some type of phycological trickery involved, such as the mental "I-like-Awake-because-it's-different" thing that has arisen for whatever reason.
OH MY GOD :lol :lol :lol
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I hear you. I guess I just don't get. Everyone is hearing the same song, and assuming everyone's ears are working properly, I don't see how we come to such different conclusions unless there is some type of phycological trickery involved, such as the mental "I-like-Awake-because-it's-different" thing that has arisen for whatever reason.
Ok, wait, I didn't even see this post.
................
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Awake is definitely the Dream Theater fan's Dream Theater record. I can understand it not being some people's number 1 album, or in the top 3, but any fan who doesn't at least have it (and Images and Words) in their top 5 is nuts.
I think a more accurate statement is: Any fan who thinks their way of viewing a particular song or album is the only correct way and everyone who thinks differently is "nuts" is a presumptuous dick.
Bosk, I dont know if you meant to attack PC or anything, but that was a bit uncalled for.
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Anyone who thinks dicks are gay is a sinner.
They're only gay if they're kissing or hanging out with each other.
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Anyone who thinks dicks are gay is a sinner.
They're only gay if they're kissing or hanging out with each other.
You're such a presumptuous bigot!
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I will say that I like Awake as a whole and don't skip any songs. It IS a great record.
This.
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I do like it, but I place it in the category that I probably prefer a lot of the stuff that cam after this.
A lot of DT fans I have met in Australia over the years rate this as their number one. :smiley:
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I hear you. I guess I just don't get. Everyone is hearing the same song, and assuming everyone's ears are working properly, I don't see how we come to such different conclusions unless there is some type of phycological trickery involved, such as the mental "I-like-Awake-because-it's-different" thing that has arisen for whatever reason.
THIS POST.
OH GOD THIS POST.
:facepalm: :facepalm:
your avatar is very restless.....and quite annoying when you pay to much attention to it :biggrin:
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Yes I rank Awake as Dream Theater's best. In fact, Awake is my favorite piece of music EVER. SFAM is Dream Theater's second best followed by Images & Words. All three are perfect but that's how I rank them.
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Yes I rank Awake as Dream Theater's best. In fact, Awake is my favorite piece of music EVER. SFAM is Dream Theater's second best followed by Images & Words. All three are perfect but that's how I rank them.
This
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I suppose I'm strange, but while I pretty much rank the other albums like everyone else, I just don't think Awake is among the top. It's a decent album, but IMO it's only better than WDADU and FII. It might be because of the sound though, I strongly dislike it. Being an engineer myself I just don't like how it sounds (still far better than WDADU though, which I just don't listen to because of the way it sounds). Musically it's growing though, so it might jump up a place or two in the near future. The only grower atm.
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Time to give me $0.02.
Awake ranks #1 as my favorite album of all time. There are obvious reasons for this:
1.) It's the only album that I have never gotten tired of listening to. At all. I've listened to it more than I&W, SFAM and other non-Dream Theater records. It has yet to lose it's charm to me.
2.) I get chills listening to parts. I still connect with the songs. I still salivate over riffs, drum fills, vocal melodies and bass lines (keys are a "meh" factor to me on any album).
Those are completely personal opinions. While reading this thread, I decided to look into those reasons for loving Awake. But, before I go into that, I need to address a few things with these "haters":
1.) What makes a 5 minute song less bombastic than a 20 minute song?
2.) What makes a 5 minute song less progressive than a 20 minute song?
3.) It's already been addressed. How does failure to look into a song's meaning, beyond surface level, warrant an opinion of "just because it is cryptic doesn't mean it is good"?
My points are NOT aimed at any individual posters.
I have been a Dream Theater fan since 2005. My first song was Panic Attack. The first album I got was SFAM. The next album was I&W. After that, I bought them all (yes, in one shopping trip. Oh to be a teenager with income like that again). One thing became VERY clear to me with Dream Theater after listening to every album up until that point. And now, it is more drastically clear. While I love the newer stuff, it doesn't hold a candle to the old. There is literally a song like "As I Am" on every album from Train of Thought on. The album structures are the same. Again, while I enjoy the music, it feels incredibly formulaic. Black Clouds definitely follows the routine, but not as closely. A Nightmare to Remember was saved by the killer intro and "Beautiful Agony". The music of "The Count of Tuscany" was magnificent.
But what saved Black Clouds was the solo section of The Count of Tuscany. No 1,000,000,000,000 notes per second. Not that I don't mind those solos. But for God's sake, A Rite of Passage was horrendously ruined by the solos. The breakdown section was fine. But the solos were like "well shit, this is typical Dream Theater.". I don't even mean that in a negative way. Just in a "I wish they would break the mould" way. I could go back to every album post-SFAM and point out every flaw with them. I won't. I don't want to give off the impression that I don't enjoy the albums. I do. There are cringe worthy moments on them, however.
So what does this have to do with Awake?
Like the perfect solo section for The Count of Tuscany, Awake carries a feeling of everything fitting in place with the album. All Dream Theater albums sound like one coherent album. To me, however, Awake sounds the most like one work of art. Not several pieces put together, but one piece.
The metal head in me is probably drawn to Awake for its heaviness. But, it also has some of the softest Dream Theater moments, too. It also has most of the sad moments, happy moments and contemplative moments. I get why people have opinions and won't agree with me on this. But, to me, this album has it all. The guitar work on The Silent Man is more memorable than anything JP has done from SDOIT and on (yeah, I'm not a huge fan of SDOIT). JMX actually feels like he is part of the band on this album. His bass is alive and well. James' voice, while when aggressive sounds wonderful, for me, really shines on The Silent Man and Lifting Shadows.
And when I was thinking of all of this, it's when it all hit me. I can relate to everything on the album. When the lyrics point to an aggressive or angry time, the music on ALL levels reflects it. Pick any emotion any song on Awake is trying to convey. Vocally and instrumentally the emotion is conveyed. It isn't one of these "I really like the words and can relate to them!" It is "Everything about this song speaks to me right now".
Then I was thinking; "okay, so people will probably understand my point on this stuff. But, prog heads will be like "blah blah least proggy etc". I have to say, this album is progressive in nature. They were pressured by their label to make another Pull Me Under (which was a last minute song for I&W). So what did they do? They created heavy songs that were infinitely more musical than Pull Me Under.
What about the bombast-"ary" of the album? Voices. Scarred. Lifting Shadows. If you haven't listened to those songs, I get why you would miss it.
In conclusion, I will say this;
Even when Dream Theater absolutely bores me, when music bores me, Awake never does. This post is coming from a COMPLETELY biased poster. I was just trying to say why it is #1 to me. I was taking some of the negative things about it (to other posters) and explaining where I see these things as positives to me. I have no intention of debating.
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Hell to the yeah.
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Need the applause emote.
Outstanding.
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I love you Snapple. And not just because of your delicious fruity taste.
-J
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snapple's post was great, but to address was rob said earlier in the thread, how is Awake not playing to their strengths? Just because they have chosen not to really revisit that style again doesn't mean it wasn't a strength, or even their biggest strength. And on the flip side, just because they do something on a regular basis, doesn't automatically make it their biggest strength. It is just the thing they like doing the most or more than anything else.
Frankly, quite a few bands' best albums are ones that aren't necessarily in the style that said band did the most. Dream Theater is one of those bands.
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*cue argument where the style has changed on every album*
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Kevin Moore.....nuff said
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Another thing in Awake's favor is that it is the one DT album where the quality of the lyrics matches the quality of the musicianship.
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Another thing in Awake's favor is that it is the one DT album where the quality of the lyrics matches the quality of the musicianship.
I can get behind this. I mean, they aren't all amazing, but they're definitely DT's most consistent.
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Awake is the best album because it is
Also Kevin Moore
Kevin Moore's conspicuous only by his absence...
Songwritingwise, he essentially just did what he was told. By all reports he'd more or less signed off before they started recording. Space-Dye Vest aside, Moore was almost unquestionably the LVP.
Awake is, at its core, the sum total of three guys writing music.
You shut your mouth about Kevin Moore.
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Voices. 'nuff said.
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Snapple just won this thread.
This thread can be closed.
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Snapple just won this thread.
This thread can be closed.
Not really. It was a well-written post about why he loves the album so much, which is great and all, but that doesn't mean we all have to agree with it. In fact I disagree with a fair bit of it.
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Snapple just won this thread.
This thread can be closed.
Not really. It was a well-written post about why he loves the album so much, which is great and all, but that doesn't mean we all have to agree with it. In fact I disagree with a fair bit of it.
This.
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Snapple just won this thread.
This thread can be closed.
Not really. It was a well-written post about why he loves the album so much, which is great and all, but that doesn't mean we all have to agree with it. In fact I disagree with a fair bit of it.
This.
And I totally expect disagreement. The thread asked why Awake was number 1 to the fans it was number 1 too. All I did is say why.
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Oh, I know. I have no problem with your post. Ariich and I were just responding to those who seem to think your post makes this an open and shut case.
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Snapple just won this thread.
This thread can be closed.
Not really. It was a well-written post about why he loves the album so much, which is great and all, but that doesn't mean we all have to agree with it. In fact I disagree with a fair bit of it.
This.
Neither of you offered any counter-argument nor did you offer anything worth reading.
Snapple hit the nail on the head. He answered the OP's question with sound information and great points that are hard to refute.
Of course it's subjective to everyone's opinion but again, neither of you offered anything worth reading or discussing with the exception of Ariich's comment that the thread should have been closed after the first reply. How open-minded and encouraging.
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What on earth are you talking about? ???
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Snapple just won this thread.
This thread can be closed.
Not really. It was a well-written post about why he loves the album so much, which is great and all, but that doesn't mean we all have to agree with it. In fact I disagree with a fair bit of it.
This.
Neither of you offered any counter-argument nor did you offer anything worth reading.
Whereas your 'this thread can be closed' comment was brilliant and insightful?
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Whereas your 'this thread can be closed' comment was brilliant and insightful?
Exactly!
I even praised how well-written snapple's post was. I was just pointing out that nothing about it was objective fact, it was just a very eloquent description of why he loves the album so much. There was no "counter-argument" because there is nothing to argue against. He loves the album for a number of reasons, which is terrific! Why would I try and tell him that he's wrong?
My disagreement was about the idea that the thread was over.
I love Awake, it's my 4th favourite DT album. I disagree strongly with snapple's comments about DT's other output, but whatever, if that's how he feels then that's fine.
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I'm surprised the "not liking SDOIT that much" comment has gone almost completely unnoticed. However, it could just be well behaved posters staying on topic :tup.
I know my post count here is few, so I'll let you all in on a little secret. I love Dream Theater's older material for its immaturity. Or maybe they're more immature now (in regards to music). But there is magic in the music from Another Won to A Change of Seasons. After that, with the exception of SFAM and a few songs, it feels like the magic isn't as obvious. There is no doubt these guys pour their hearts into their music. I think their old stuff has more charm to it. To Live Forever has that phrasing that JP sort of pisses on on the one of the commentaries that I totally disagree with (and the wind has blown....me half away across the world). Another Won+WDADU has this feel of teenagers just going all out.
I don't really have time to put this post more delicately, but I'll just say I like the older stuff much better. Seems more "human" if you will :P
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Ugh this thread should have ended after the first reply. :P
Just saying - it didn't seem to offer anything.
Whereas your 'this thread can be closed' comment was brilliant and insightful?
No. It wasn't brilliant and insightful. Just stating that Snapple's reply spoke volumes with regards to Dream Theater's music [Then versus Now]. Subjectively, I stated that the thread can be closed as only to put emphasis that, IMO, it was an "open and shut" case.
It's disheartening that I even have to come back and explain a simple matter of opinion that resonated with Snapple. It seems to me others were actually worried that my opinion would actually direct the moderators to literally close the thread. :yeahright
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Ugh this thread should have ended after the first reply. :P
Just saying - it didn't seem to offer anything.
Indeed, but the tongue smiley should be a pretty strong indicator that I was joking. :P
Whereas your 'this thread can be closed' comment was brilliant and insightful?
No. It wasn't brilliant and insightful. Just stating that Snapple's reply spoke volumes with regards to Dream Theater's music [Then versus Now]. Subjectively, I stated that the thread can be closed as only to put emphasis that, IMO, it was an "open and shut" case.
Indeed, and I was disagreeing that it was, in any way, an open and shut case. That was all, I wasn't making a big deal about it, and I certainly didn't think that you were actually suggesting locking the thread, so don't worry about that. :lol
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Whereas your 'this thread can be closed' comment was brilliant and insightful?
Exactly!
I even praised how well-written snapple's post was. I was just pointing out that nothing about it was objective fact, it was just a very eloquent description of why he loves the album so much. There was no "counter-argument" because there is nothing to argue against. He loves the album for a number of reasons, which is terrific! Why would I try and tell him that he's wrong?
My disagreement was about the idea that the thread was over.
I love Awake, it's my 4th favourite DT album. I disagree strongly with snapple's comments about DT's other output, but whatever, if that's how he feels then that's fine.
Again, agreed.
It's disheartening that I even have to come back and explain a simple matter of opinion that resonated with Snapple.
No, the problem is that you didn't have to, but you chose to anyway. There should be nothing to explain. You are looking for issues where there aren't any.
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Awake is the best album because it is
Also Kevin Moore
Kevin Moore's conspicuous only by his absence...
Songwritingwise, he essentially just did what he was told. By all reports he'd more or less signed off before they started recording. Space-Dye Vest aside, Moore was almost unquestionably the LVP.
Awake is, at its core, the sum total of three guys writing music.
You shut your mouth about Kevin Moore.
Not saying there's anything wrong with him. Just that Awake's greatness and KevMo's greatness are pretty much independent entities.