DT16 Timeline Thread - James starts recording vocal parts

[OpenYourEyes311]

So, maybe this means we'll get The Killing Hand 😭

I can't be the last person on earth who believes in James enough for this.

I want TKH real bad. Been too long and infrequent for some of the WDaDU tracks.

A Fortune in Lies - 2012
Status Seeker - 2004 once, 1993 before that
Ytse Jam - 2011
The Killing Hand - 2004 twice, 2002 before that
Light Fuse and Get Away - 2004 twice, 1993 before that
Afterlife - 2015
The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun - 2004 eleven times, 1994 before that
Only a Matter of Time - 19 times from 2003-2004, 1993 before that

Only three have been played since the Train of Thought tour. Two others have only been played once or twice since Images and Words. Bring these songs back please.

[Buddyhunter1]

I hadn't listened to Raw Dog in like, over ten years. I decided to put it on to refresh my memory and damn, it's way worse than I remember. It's trying really hard to go for that big grandiose metal vibe, but everything sounds so limp and the keyboard sounds are fucking awful. Not worth a setlist slot. If at some point they decide they want to play every song in their discography at least once, bringing it out for a single show then never touching it again would be the optimal play.

[nobloodyname]

Meh. It's... fine.

[gmillerdrake]

I hadn't listened to Raw Dog in like, over ten years. I decided to put it on to refresh my memory and damn, it's way worse than I remember. It's trying really hard to go for that big grandiose metal vibe, but everything sounds so limp and the keyboard sounds are fucking awful. Not worth a setlist slot. If at some point they decide they want to play every song in their discography at least once, bringing it out for a single show then never touching it again would be the optimal play.

Yep.....even the name is/was rudimentary....the video game it was created for spelled backwards. I get it....they probably got paid a few grand each to create a song that took them all of a day or two to write. Good for them. But I've never considered it a Dream Theater song.....especially since JMX wasn't even onsite when they wrote it.

It was a quick payday and generic song for a video game. It's not a song to put in a setlist.

[Lonk]

I hadn't listened to Raw Dog in like, over ten years. I decided to put it on to refresh my memory and damn, it's way worse than I remember. It's trying really hard to go for that big grandiose metal vibe, but everything sounds so limp and the keyboard sounds are fucking awful. Not worth a setlist slot. If at some point they decide they want to play every song in their discography at least once, bringing it out for a single show then never touching it again would be the optimal play.

I think the suggestion someone made on the last page isn't bad, and that is to do another instrumedley, and include 1 minutes or so from it.

[Buddyhunter1]

It was a quick payday and generic song for a video game. It's not a song to put in a setlist.

I'm pretty sure none of the songs from that EP were even in any God Of War game. It was just a promotional thing, as far as I can tell - a way to get fans of the series to check out what were some of the most popular metal bands signed to Roadrunner at the time.

[Metro]

They weren't in the game, much to my disappointment (though the game was awesome). It was just a promotional thing for Roadrunner.

[gzarruk]

But I've never considered it a Dream Theater song.....especially since JMX wasn't even onsite when they wrote it.

So, ADTOE isn't a DT album because Mangini wasn't involved in the writing? TA only had Petrucci and Rudess, is that even less a DT album because of it? There's more examples of this, but you get where I'm going. I get not liking it, but that doesn't mean it's not a DT song

[gmillerdrake]

So, ADTOE isn't a DT album because Mangini wasn't involved in the writing? TA only had Petrucci and Rudess, is that even less a DT album because of it? There's more examples of this, but you get where I'm going. I get not liking it, but that doesn't mean it's not a DT song

But MM still came in and recorded his parts and had 'some' say. As this was like 15 years ago....I'm sure finding the article is going to be a bitch....maybe Setlist Scotty knows???...but...I recall reading that JMX had zero to do with writing/recording the bass.

And, outside of that fact....I don't consider it a 'real' DT song because of why it was made. They were hired to write a jingle basically for a video game. Yes it's JP, MP and JR playing music but it's SO generic and stale.

I'd bet even money were you to ask any of those guys if they considered it a 'real' DT song 2 out of 3 of them would say 'no'.

[gzarruk]

But MM still came in and recorded his parts and had 'some' say. As this was like 15 years ago....I'm sure finding the article is going to be a bitch....maybe Setlist Scotty knows???...but...I recall reading that JMX had zero to do with writing/recording the bass.

And, outside of that fact....I don't consider it a 'real' DT song because of why it was made. They were hired to write a jingle basically for a video game. Yes it's JP, MP and JR playing music but it's SO generic and stale.

I'd bet even money were you to ask any of those guys if they considered it a 'real' DT song 2 out of 3 of them would say 'no'.

Well, I guess it'd be a bit different if he really didn't play on it. I don't know much about the background of the song, but I'm sure Scotty can provide more context. Still it's a track written by DT, recorded by DT and released under the DT name.

[The Letter M]

I want TKH real bad. Been too long and infrequent for some of the WDaDU tracks.

A Fortune in Lies - 2012
Status Seeker - 2004 once, 1993 before that
Ytse Jam - 2011
The Killing Hand - 2004 twice, 2002 before that
Light Fuse and Get Away - 2004 twice, 1993 before that
Afterlife - 2015
The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun - 2004 eleven times, 1994 before that
Only a Matter of Time - 19 times from 2003-2004, 1993 before that

Only three have been played since the Train of Thought tour. Two others have only been played once or twice since Images and Words. Bring these songs back please.

It would be nice for them to play a song from WDADU this year and dedicate it to Charlie.

-Marc.

[Chino]

That would be a pretty solid thing to do, imo.

[Stadler]

I hadn't listened to Raw Dog in like, over ten years. I decided to put it on to refresh my memory and damn, it's way worse than I remember. It's trying really hard to go for that big grandiose metal vibe, but everything sounds so limp and the keyboard sounds are fucking awful. Not worth a setlist slot. If at some point they decide they want to play every song in their discography at least once, bringing it out for a single show then never touching it again would be the optimal play.

No argument on the merits, here, but just a point of order: I would imagine if they played it live, the SOUND of it would be improved if only because of the context.

[Buddyhunter1]

No argument on the merits, here, but just a point of order: I would imagine if they played it live, the SOUND of it would be improved if only because of the context.

Sure, I feel that way about TDEN. It's just alright on the album, but in a live setting it's pretty enjoyable. TDEN is already a much better song than Raw Dog though, so I don't know if it'd really elevate it much.

[TAC]

It would be nice for them to play a song from WDADU this year and dedicate it to Charlie.

I can see this.

[pg1067]

So, maybe this means we'll get The Killing Hand 😭

I can't be the last person on earth who believes in James enough for this.

There's no way that JLB could consistently sing it as it was on the album (or anything close to Live at the Marquee or WDADRu).  However, if they take the time to re-write the vocal melody, I'd love to see it again.

I want TKH real bad. Been too long and infrequent for some of the WDaDU tracks.

I'd be very surprised if they don't do one of the non-instrumental songs as a tribute to Charlie.

[Metro]

If they're gonna do any WDADU song, Afterlife is the obvious choice, with Charlie's passing. I would like to see them bring TKH eventually, though I think they'd have to tune down 1/2 or maybe even a whole step. And I think we'll see a lot more of that in the future for the older material.

[ZirconBlue]

Are you sure?

The U.S. leg of the I&W&B tour started on October 25, 2017 in Oakland with both TLF and DLPM being played 4th and 5th in the setlist (with 8 songs in the first set before intermission and the entirety of I&W).  They kept both songs for the first half of the shows, through and including the Toronto show on November 12.  Starting with the Albany show on November 14, they dropped DLPM and didn't replace it.  Setlist.fm (yeah...I know...not always accurate) doesn't show that they ever played TSCO on that leg of the tour, and it shows that TLF remained in the set throughout the tour.

They did not play DLPM or TLF when I saw them in Asheville, NC.

[pg1067]

They did not play DLPM or TLF when I saw them in Asheville, NC.

Damn...I didn't read far enough on setlist.fm.

Here's some contemporaneous discussion of the dropping of DLPM:  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=51120.msg2377881#msg2377881

The discussion of dropping TLF starts on the next page.  Looking more closely at setlist.fm, they replaced TLF with TSCO for the last 6 shows of the tour, starting with the 11/21/17 show in Huntington, NY.

[Mosh]

I went in blind on that tour and was fortunate enough to get Don't Look Past Me, it was mindblowing and felt like a real treat to the hardcore fans (not to mention it did a lot to show that the band was still interested in digging deep into the catalog post-MP. It also was a real energy drop, but I don't like that JP dropped the songs as a response to that. It was a 3 hour setlist that included their biggest album played live in full, devoting 10 minutes to a couple songs most of the audience doesn't know but hardcore fans really appreciate isn't a big deal.

IMO whether Raw Dog gets played depends entirely on whether there's still any interest within the band of checking off never-before played song boxes. Shattered Fortress and Space Dye Vest as well as the sprinkling of DT12 songs after that tour's album suggest JP finds that important, we all know that MP cares about that sort of thing*, and I guess Raw Dog is among two officially released MP era songs that have never been played live, so I guess it depends on if they see it that way or if they see it as more of a throwaway track for a video game soundtrack. Not really sure since they rarely speak of that song publicly.

One thing I thought about as well is that if they go the route of playing one song off each MP era album I guess they could play Raw Dog as the BC&SL representation. Not from that album obviously but from the same period and would give JLB a break. Otherwise I have a hard time seeing any reason for bringing it out at least on this upcoming tour.

*Of course if playing Raw Dog live is a priority, you have to wonder if they are eventually going to get to the handful of MM era songs that never got played. I would be much more interested in those personally.

[EPIC Outro]

I really want to hear the demo version of Take Away My Pain, especially when James hits that big "the curtain FAAAAALLLLLSSS!"

[Setlist Scotty]

I would argue that most fans STILL don't have a clue about those songs, because neither has been played since that show, in April of 2006.

I'm not arguing for or against them playing obscure songs.  But I am saying that at this point in their career, it would seem to make less sense than ever for them to do so.  But even if they were to do so, Raw Dog seems like an odd choice to me, even among this admittedly odd collection of songs.

But as always, whatever they want to do, obviously.

The majority of fans may not be super familiar with those songs, but just the fact that they are on Score heightens their visibility in a way that previously didn't exist. On that FB group that we're both a part of, I know I've seen the occasional comment about RtK and it's always positive; people are glad it was included or else they wouldn't have known about its existence. I think the same would be true for other non-album tracks as well.

And yeah, those songs haven't been played since 2006, but aside from the brief 2015 run in Europe (which was mostly festivals and therefore shorter setlists), there hasn't been a retrospective tour looking back at their entire catalog since that time anyway, and that is the kind of tour where it is most fitting to include these tracks. So when they do their 40th anniversary tour (which while not confirmed, I feel is inevitable following the tour in support of their new upcoming album), I could see some of these rare tracks being dusted off again for the occasion.

And how can it be they never play The School Song when Petrucci picked it as one of his favorite riffs in that Gear Factor video? 

I don't recall watching that video - did he really say that or is the emoji supposed to show it's a joke? (You realize green type is the way to go, right?   )

But even though I'm guessing you're joking the reason why that song has never been (nor probably ever will be) played is because it wasn't completed. Same with Resurrection of Ernie.

Are you sure?

The U.S. leg of the I&W&B tour started on October 25, 2017 in Oakland with both TLF and DLPM being played 4th and 5th in the setlist (with 8 songs in the first set before intermission and the entirety of I&W).  They kept both songs for the first half of the shows, through and including the Toronto show on November 12.  Starting with the Albany show on November 14, they dropped DLPM and didn't replace it.  Setlist.fm (yeah...I know...not always accurate) doesn't show that they ever played TSCO on that leg of the tour, and it shows that TLF remained in the set throughout the tour.

Unfortunately for me, I was subjected to both songs.  I was in the mezzanine at the Wiltern Theatre show, and the lull of TLF, DLPM and Portrait of Tracy was palpable.  Looking down on the floor seats, I could a small handful of people geeking out to those songs, but 90% of the crowd was underwhelmed.

They are correct. DLPM and later TLF were dropped, and when TLF was dropped, the band brought back TSCO to fill the space. As for the audience being underwhelmed? Oh well. If it was for the majority of the show, then I'd say you have a point. But for roughly 8% of the show? Nevermind the reaction of the audience, while muted, may not have been one of disappointment, but of focusing on a pair of songs that they weren't familiar with. That doesn't mean that they weren't enjoying those songs, but just that they weren't rocking out to them. There's a big difference between the two.

And being that neither of those songs is a PMU or AIA in terms of crunchy heaviness or being anthemic in nature, what kind of reaction should the audience give? By comparison, was there really that much of a difference to when they played something like Another Day? Probably not. The only flaw I could see is pairing the two rarities together. It might have been better to have split them up instead of playing them consecutively, and in both cases have JL introduce them as non-album rarity tracks.

especially since it's not even a very good song. It was crafted for a video game....it's 'generic' in the sense that, while it has your typical DT sound and experience.....it's a pretty boring and lame song. Plus, JMX didn't even write the bass on it per an obscure interview at the time of release.

JM had nothing to do with RD? That's news to me! But your post motivated me to do a little digging, and in fact it looks like that is the case, judging by MP's post in response to GMKennelty here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20100114075411/http://twitter.com/MikePortnoyDT

I would be curious to know why that was what happened, but being that RD was done at an LTE-style pace and JM doesn't contribute as much to the songwriting, maybe that was why. Or it could be that they only had a small window of time to work within to get the song done in time, and maybe JM had other commitments that prevented him from taking part. Without the band explaining, it's hard to know for sure.

I know you referenced an obscure interview from that time period, but any chance you might remember where you saw/heard/read it? Would love to check it out if possible.

There's no way that JLB could consistently sing it as it was on the album (or anything close to Live at the Marquee or WDADRu).  However, if they take the time to re-write the vocal melody, I'd love to see it again.

As much as I love TKH (and almost everything on WDaDU - just not a fan of Afterlife), I agree that trying to do it as it is won't happen. But if it was changed/modified to adjust to JL's current capabilities, I could see it being a distinct possibility.

[sfam2112]

They did not play DLPM or TLF when I saw them in Asheville, NC.

I saw them the night before in Raleigh. They went from Hell's Kitchen straight into Spirit.

[gmillerdrake]

I know you referenced an obscure interview from that time period, but any chance you might remember where you saw/heard/read it? Would love to check it out if possible.

Man....I really don't recall. I 'know' I read it....and it was something similar to what you shared there that MP said.....it was just him JR, and JP who wrote the song. It might have even been in a thread on his forum. I think you're also correct that it was a quick turn around deal, that they got the request and just knocked it out.

I have no idea why JMX not being involved in that song stuck with me for all these years, other than the fact that I was extremely underwhelmed by the song and think it's just 'meh'.

[gzarruk]

I read what Scotty linked and MP says that JM would learn the keyboard bass line Jordan wrote and double it, but that implies he would do that to record it, doesn't it? (not trying to be sarcastic, it's a genuine question)

I guess we now know what to ask MP/the band if there's a Q&A anytime soon. Speaking of that, is MP ever doing Q&As anymore? I remember I got a few of my questions answered by him on Twitter many years ago, but I think he stopped once he got cameo and could charge for them?

[TAC]

I read what Scotty linked and MP says that JM would learn the keyboard bass line Jordan wrote and double it, but that implies he would do that to record it, doesn't it? (not trying to be sarcastic, it's a genuine question)

That's how I took it.

[Cocopjojo]

I don't recall watching that video - did he really say that or is the emoji supposed to show it's a joke? (You realize green type is the way to go, right?   )

But even though I'm guessing you're joking the reason why that song has never been (nor probably ever will be) played is because it wasn't completed. Same with Resurrection of Ernie.

https://youtu.be/3O9IOFaI0tE?si=Zh_vehpVBOEYo41G&t=896

@ 19:55

[gmillerdrake]

That's how I took it.

Seems like that's what could have happened.

Nonetheless......it'd probably had been at least a decade since I listened to 'raw dog' and since we've been talking about it I went ahead and fired it up. And, it is much...much....worse than I recall. The Q&A question to MP shouldn't be about JMX it should be geared toward discovering how long and how much effort they put into writing it. I can't imagine that took more than a day for them to throw that together.

It's a video game song that seems to be made up of some scraps and disregarded ideas. It has every obligatory 'DT' element in it at a very unrefined level and it's just....a....video game song.

[devieira73]

Just to comment about the "John Myung having nothing to do with Raw Dog" thought. Since I'm an old DT fan, there are a lot of things that I remember by memory, like that post about JR writing bass lines for Raw Dog (and yes, that bass line is cool as hell). But, at the time and I still think so, I took more like JR wrote some bass lines for that specific part of RD, not that he wrote all the bass lines for the song. Also I remember by memory (so maybe I'm mistaken) MP saying that he wrote some bass lines for the song Octavarium. Anyway,  I think it's natural something like this happen from time to time, since I see that JP, JR and MP were/are the main creative forces in the writing/arrangements process of DT songs (IMO MP much more as an arranger than a composer, but also a composer, no doubt). If JM isn't overdubbing some guitar or keyboard, I'm sure he'll take what someone occasionaly wrote or had an idea for bass and take it to another level when playing it.
BTW, I like RD and I think it would be somenthing cool if it was played live. I have a feeling it's a song that, while it's an easy target for a die-hard fan to criticize, a more casual fan could easily just bang their head over at a concert, even if they've never heard it before.

[porcacultor]

I gave Raw Dog a listen again and I'm not sure it'd be such a fluke onstage. If they gave it the proper love (maybe an animation projected on the backdrop -- probably something like Rush's By-tor and Snow Dog – only with their avatars from TDEN and Enigma Machine –, a short intro by MP about how it was never played live before or something), I can see it getting people going.

I know it's not everybody's cup of tea, but it's just so fun!

[OpenYourEyes311]

https://youtu.be/3O9IOFaI0tE?si=Zh_vehpVBOEYo41G&t=896

@ 19:55

That's so cool to hear him play that. I guess I just assumed that he hasn't played it since 1985 and had since forgotten it.

[Setlist Scotty]

https://youtu.be/3O9IOFaI0tE?si=Zh_vehpVBOEYo41G&t=896

@ 19:55

Will check it out! Thanks!

I did some digging, and I came across an article that MP wrote right around that time that gives a lot of back history and insight to the creation of RD. Definitely worth reading. The turn around time *was* very fast (1 week) and from MP's description, it does sound like JM played his parts, even though his tweet implies otherwise.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100228162923/http://decibelmagazine.com/Content.aspx?ncid=359656

[Awaken]

Popped in to see what's new and . . . raw dog?! 

back to waiting for show announcements/updates on the new record

[Stadler]

Say what you want about the song in general, but John's solo about 5:00 in SLAYS.  I'd pay to see that live.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

gotta admit, that i'm a little bit confused. </roger waters>





what the fuck is raw dog? the last several pages of this thread read like a weird fan fic

EDIT: I googled it and it's apparently a song DT put in a video game, lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6OfqGvliyw

TIL. I never played Sony consoles as they are responsible directly for the death of Sega so fuck them.

EDIT2: not really understanding the hype, sounds like background video game music lol. i'd be OK having never heard this, and I'd definitely be OK not seeing this live