- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, EIGHT YEARS On.

[TheCountOfNYC]

My issue with The Astonishing is how long it is. I very rarely have the time to listen to the entire thing. On the rare occasion that I have a 2+ hour drive, I always make a point to spin it, but due to the infrequency of those long trips, it's my least listened to Dream Theater record despite me ranking it in the top half of their albums.

[Zydar]

My issue with The Astonishing is how long it is. I very rarely have the time to listen to the entire thing. On the rare occasion that I have a 2+ hour drive, I always make a point to spin it, but due to the infrequency of those long trips, it's my least listened to Dream Theater record despite me ranking it in the top half of their albums.

I know the feeling. People just don't have the time for music anymore.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I know the feeling. People just don't have the time for music anymore.

[Northern Lion]

I know the feeling. People just don't have the time for music anymore.

lol!

I don't listen to the album front to back very often, but I have a really awesome playlist that I listen to frequently.

[Max Kuehnau]

Same. While I do enjoy The Astonishing very much, I prefer Scenes From a Memory.

I have no issue with that, as I mentioned

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

I have no issue with that, as I mentioned

Okay? Whether you have an issue with it or not is irrelevant. I don't justify or defend my preferences to anyone.

[Wim Kruithof]

My issue with The Astonishing is how long it is. I very rarely have the time to listen to the entire thing.

But isn't this a total matter of priorities? If the album was worth the investment for you, 'having time' is really easy. But if you 'funnel' The Astonishing to just roadtrips, I can follow you find yourself with less time than it takes.

I listen to The Astonishing very often - as is the case with the whole Dream Theater discography - and when I'm in for the concept-ride... I'll grap a nice craftbeer like Westvleteren or Rochefort when the youngest kids lay in bed... and spin the four vinyls with the lyrics in hand. Each time the trip is very worth it.

[DoctorAction]

The only astonishing thing about The Astonishing is that this group of exceptionally talented, successful musicians thought that it was compelling enough to release. That was genuinely astonishing to me and still is.

[hunnus2000]

My issue with The Astonishing is how long it is. I very rarely have the time to listen to the entire thing. On the rare occasion that I have a 2+ hour drive, I always make a point to spin it, but due to the infrequency of those long trips, it's my least listened to Dream Theater record despite me ranking it in the top half of their albums.

Road trip! 

[Dedalus]

The only astonishing thing about The Astonishing is that this group of exceptionally talented, successful musicians thought that it was compelling enough to release. That was genuinely astonishing to me and still is.

You're being sarcastic, but there is indeed something astonishing about their decision to release this album IMO.

I'm going to make two assumptions:

1) They're smart people.

2) They know their fan base well.

With both of the above assumptions being true, it's kind of impossible that they didn't think, even for a second, that it would be a huge failure. And yet they decided to go ahead with it.

Either they were totally out of touch with reality or they just thought "well, fuck it... let's just release it", kind of like Metallica releasing Lulu even though they knew the backlash would be the worst possible.

[DoctorAction]

You're being sarcastic, but there is indeed something astonishing about their decision to release this album IMO.

I'm going to make two assumptions:

1) They're smart people.

2) They know their fan base well.

With both of the above assumptions being true, it's kind of impossible that they didn't think, even for a second, that it would be a huge failure. And yet they decided to go ahead with it.

Either they were totally out of touch with reality or they just thought "well, fuck it... let's just release it", kind of like Metallica releasing Lulu even though they knew the backlash would be the worst possible.

In real life I'm sarcastic about 80% of the time (Britain's main mode of communication) but I'm not being so here. It's a taste thing, of course, but I was and still am astonished that their tastes diverged so hard from mine.

[macneil]

You're being sarcastic, but there is indeed something astonishing about their decision to release this album IMO.

I'm going to make two assumptions:

1) They're smart people.

2) They know their fan base well.

With both of the above assumptions being true, it's kind of impossible that they didn't think, even for a second, that it would be a huge failure. And yet they decided to go ahead with it.

Either they were totally out of touch with reality or they just thought "well, fuck it... let's just release it", kind of like Metallica releasing Lulu even though they knew the backlash would be the worst possible.

I'm sure they knew it was probably going to be a riskier release, but they did seem proud of it (and they obviously put a lot of effort into making it).

They were confident enough in it to do the whole marketing campaign with the game and the book and everything and doing shows playing the whole thing in its entirety, I just don't they expected the backlash to it to be as negative as it was.

Also, in no way is The Astonishing comparable to Lulu  I don't think they would have committed all that extra stuff if they weren't reasonably happy with it.

[Dedalus]

I'm sure they knew it was probably going to be a riskier release, but they did seem proud of it (and they obviously put a lot of effort into making it).

They were confident enough in it to do the whole marketing campaign with the game and the book and everything and doing shows playing the whole thing in its entirety, I just don't they expected the backlash to it to be as negative as it was.

Also, in no way is The Astonishing comparable to Lulu  I don't think they would have committed all that extra stuff if they weren't reasonably happy with it.

Well, I didn't question their feelings about the work for a minute.

My question was whether they knew that the reception would be bad and still bought into it and did what they wanted. Or, on the other hand, whether they had any hope of "winning over the public or its resistance".

Your analysis is good, especially the part in bold.

It's possible that they got so immersed in the work that they maybe nurtured hope and lost some of the notion of who their public is. Because I think this is indisputable: if you coldly analyze what the album and DT's public are, there was no chance that they wouldn't be heavily criticized.

This discussion made me remember the first time I heard the album. It was a mix of surprise (since it is their most distinctive work), a certain fascination for hearing something I never expected from them and, at the same time, a growing awareness as the album progressed of "wow, this album is going to be torn apart by the band's fans".

I had this conviction since the first time I listened to it.

Since then, I've been thinking from time to time that "there's no way they NOT knew beforehand that they were going to be massacred". Well, maybe you're right and they had some hope that it would work out and be better received.

Oh, my comparison with Lulu is only in the sense that Metallica knew EXACTLY how the public would react, but they did it anyway in the best "we're going to do what we want because we're Metallica and we're bigger than anything" style. I remember Lars saying that he warned Lou Reed before the release to prepare him because the reaction from Metallica fans would be brutal. It didn't help, Lou Reed was pissed off anyway.

edited to add a missing word.

[macneil]

It's possible that they got so immersed in the work that they maybe nurtured hope and lost some of the notion of who their public is. Because I think this is indisputable: if you coldly analyze what the album and DT's public are, there was no chance that they wouldn't be heavily criticized.

This discussion made me remember the first time I heard the album. It was a mix of surprise (since it is their most distinctive work), a certain fascination for hearing something I never expected from them and, at the same time, a growing awareness as the album progressed of "wow, this album is going to be torn apart by the band's fans".

Yeah, I think it more likely they were (perhaps overly) optimistic that the album would get a positive reaction from fans.

The idea of Dream Theater doing a rock opera/musical doesn't seem entirely out of their wheelhouse, as some of their work has had elements of that in the past and I would imagine there is some decent crossover of fans of that kind of thing and prog in general. I don't think it was a bad idea in theory, but the execution obviously didn't work for a lot of fans, for various reasons.

I remember when I first heard it too, it was the first new DT album I ever found myself underwhelmed and disappointed by (and overwhelmed, due to just how long it was). I fell off from DT in the following years (not due to The Astonishing necessarily, there were just other artists I was more into at the time). It wasn't until Distance Over Time came out that I found myself right back into DT again, and while I think it's a strong Mangini-era album it's also obviously a pretty safe and relatively unsurprising album compared to The Astonishing (same with View).

I've never been able to listen to much of Lulu, it's hard to believe something so bad actually exists and was released 

[Wim Kruithof]

You can't compare The Astonishing with Lulu, IMO. In the first place because The Astonishing is beautifully composed... and second because Dream Theater has a so much wider spectrum than Metallica, who are mainly metal-based.

But that there are Astonishing-bashers does not mean the albums fails per se. Do we have data on album sells, compated to other works?

I think it's brilliant that they release a piece because they love it themselves, instead of following the biggest fanbase.

With a genre this wide, you simply can't please them all.

[Kyo]

I think they expected the album to be received somewhat similarly to disc two of Six Degrees. That album was also quite controversial at the time, but these days it seems to have a solid spot just behind the big classics.

I interviewed Jordan before the TA tour while the album was still very fresh and you could tell that any notion that the fan response was "mixed" did not sit well with him, so they did seem to be surprised by the backlash.

Given the bad marketing campaign, first putting factions and characters front and center before anyone had any reason to care about any of that, then putting out music teasers that made it sound like a rather "normal" modern heavy DT album, it was almost inevitable that people would be taken aback by such a large chunk of the album being on the ballad side. At no point did they stress their focus on melody, stylistic variety, orchestration and acoustic instruments. I found all of this very odd at the time.

[Dedalus]

You can't compare The Astonishing with Lulu, IMO. In the first place because The Astonishing is beautifully composed... and second because Dream Theater has a so much wider spectrum than Metallica, who are mainly metal-based.

I'm not comparing them musically, from a creative point of view, from a compositional point of view, or anything like that. I'm not even comparing them as "two examples of two different bands with bad work" or anything like that.

Look, you don't need to be a genius in analysis or predictive ability to realize that:

a) A very long DT album, with a fantasy story, full of short tracks and lots of piano ballads would be too much for their audience, which is somewhat addicted to heavy, wankery and long songs.

b) An album with Metallica serving as a backing band while Lou Reed declaims/speaks/screams his lyrics would be too much for the very narrow universe of headbangers who follow them.

My comparison is in this sense. These are works that easily go against the obvious preferences of the bands' respective audiences, but even so, they went out there and did it.

[Dedalus]

I've never been able to listen to much of Lulu, it's hard to believe something so bad actually exists and was released 

 

My story with Lulu is a funny one. When it first came out I only listened to it once and thought, "OK, I don't get what this is about."

Years later, as I was approaching 40, I started exploring and becoming a fan of the Velvet Underground and Lou Reed. So it was time to get back to Lulu. It's still a tough job, even if you're used to Lou Reed and VU... but there are things in it that I appreciate now that I'm a Lou fan.

[Dedalus]

I think they expected the album to be received somewhat similarly to disc two of Six Degrees. That album was also quite controversial at the time, but these days it seems to have a solid spot just behind the big classics.

I interviewed Jordan before the TA tour while the album was still very fresh and you could tell that any notion that the fan response was "mixed" did not sit well with him, so they did seem to be surprised by the backlash.

Given the bad marketing campaign, first putting factions and characters front and center before anyone had any reason to care about any of that, then putting out music teasers that made it sound like a rather "normal" modern heavy DT album, it was almost inevitable that people would be taken aback by such a large chunk of the album being on the ballad side. At no point did they stress their focus on melody, stylistic variety, orchestration and acoustic instruments. I found all of this very odd at the time.

Interesting point of view.

I think the discussion here was interesting.

In a way, I guess I get stuck in the idea of ��"how the hell did anyone think a long DT album full of ballads would be well received by the public?! What world do they live in?!!!!". But you guys added some interesting perspectives on this.

[Spottswoode.2112]

By far the worst album from DT.  I was shocked when I played the whole thing the first time.  Probably played it only 1 or 2 more times since.  The album title is a bit too much.  I still only like the 2 singles, Moment of Betrayal is awesome.  Rest of it is silly and boring.  I am not against concept / story albums as I really love SFAM and Mindcrime.  I will say however that I saw that tour and the album was much less annoying played live. Watching Petrucci and Mangini do their thing is always incredible, regardless of what it sounds like.

[Trav]

I think they expected the album to be received somewhat similarly to disc two of Six Degrees. That album was also quite controversial at the time, but these days it seems to have a solid spot just behind the big classics.

I interviewed Jordan before the TA tour while the album was still very fresh and you could tell that any notion that the fan response was "mixed" did not sit well with him, so they did seem to be surprised by the backlash.

Given the bad marketing campaign, first putting factions and characters front and center before anyone had any reason to care about any of that, then putting out music teasers that made it sound like a rather "normal" modern heavy DT album, it was almost inevitable that people would be taken aback by such a large chunk of the album being on the ballad side. At no point did they stress their focus on melody, stylistic variety, orchestration and acoustic instruments. I found all of this very odd at the time.

This is interesting. I don't remember the specific video or interview it was, but I remember Jordan saying when asked about comparisons between The Astonishing and SFAM. Mind you, this was was said while touring for TA. He said something along the lines of how TA was miles above SFAM because of all of the orchestration and the grandeur of it and that it was silly for people to even compare them. Even then I thought "I doubt he'll still be saying this in 10 years".

[durga2112]

My story with Lulu is a funny one. When it first came out I only listened to it once and thought, "OK, I don't get what this is about."

Years later, as I was approaching 40, I started exploring and becoming a fan of the Velvet Underground and Lou Reed. So it was time to get back to Lulu. It's still a tough job, even if you're used to Lou Reed and VU... but there are things in it that I appreciate now that I'm a Lou fan.

I actually like Lulu and have listened to it quite a few times. The album generally gets better as it goes on, and "Junior Dad" is a really strong closing track. I think most people quit listening to the album long before that point, though - on YouTube Music, for example, it only has 41K streams, compared to 4.5M for "The View" (which was the only single released) and nearly a million for the opening track. So it's funny to think of people queuing the album up, listening to 2 or 3 tracks, then going "WTF is this?" before listening to Master of Puppets instead. 

[Northern Lion]

I actually like Lulu and have listened to it quite a few times. The album generally gets better as it goes on, and "Junior Dad" is a really strong closing track. I think most people quit listening to the album long before that point, though - on YouTube Music, for example, it only has 41K streams, compared to 4.5M for "The View" (which was the only single released) and nearly a million for the opening track. So it's funny to think of people queuing the album up, listening to 2 or 3 tracks, then going "WTF is this?" before listening to Master of Puppets instead. 

One thing I've got to say for Lulu, is that there are a lot of really good riffs.  One of these days, I might create an edited version that would be more to my liking using Audacity.  But that's a lot of work and I just don't have time in my life right now.

[Dedalus]

So it's funny to think of people queuing the album up, listening to 2 or 3 tracks, then going "WTF is this?" before listening to Master of Puppets instead. 

[gzarruk]

I don't remember the specific video or interview it was, but I remember Jordan saying when asked about comparisons between The Astonishing and SFAM. Mind you, this was was said while touring for TA. He said something along the lines of how TA was miles above SFAM because of all of the orchestration and the grandeur of it and that it was silly for people to even compare them. Even then I thought "I doubt he'll still be saying this in 10 years".

It's been less than 10 years and now they've almost gone full nostalgia mode (not directly related to TA, but in a way it is)

[Ben_Jamin]

This is interesting. I don't remember the specific video or interview it was, but I remember Jordan saying when asked about comparisons between The Astonishing and SFAM. Mind you, this was was said while touring for TA. He said something along the lines of how TA was miles above SFAM because of all of the orchestration and the grandeur of it and that it was silly for people to even compare them. Even then I thought "I doubt he'll still be saying this in 10 years".

He is right though. They got an orchestra and choir to record those parts. JR does not play those orchestra and choir parts live, they're triggered.

It's why JP said that using a click for The Astonishing tour was pretty much essential to sync the orchestra and choir parts and video, along with the music the band plays live.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I never saw the Astonishing tour but the click makes total sense based on what JP described. Noted that he did not confirm if the click was used on prior tours so at the very least it started with TA to achieve their artistic vision. Whether or not it landed with the audience is a complicated answer.

[Max Kuehnau]

the first DT tour I remember where clicks were used was the Dramatic Turn tour (and they were so dialed in ever since that tour, thanks in no small part to them using clicks and they had to be to perform on that level with that kind of production behind them and it just makes sense in general too, given how complex MM era DT is), but anyway: I saw The Astonishing live and I found it enjoyable

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

the first DT tour I remember where clicks were used was the Dramatic Turn tour (and they were so dialed in ever since that tour, thanks in no small part to them using clicks and they had to be to perform on that level with that kind of production behind them and it just makes sense in general too, given how complex MM era DT is), but anyway: I saw The Astonishing live and I found it enjoyable

Ah ha! Thanks for confirming. I'm genuinely curious how much it would actually matter with MM there if they did NOT play with a click. Do you think it would be extremely obvious with him?

[Max Kuehnau]

well, if you do a little search on YT of John playing with him during G3 (in 2012 I think and some time afterwards) it was a case of a song by song basis with the click or without. There were differences, but they weren't too striking (quite minute) to me (far less striking than where DT are again these days, sadly), if that makes sense. And if these differences are minute, then you are a good player

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

well, if you do a little search on YT of John playing with him during G3 (in 2012 I think and some time afterwards) it was a case of a song by song basis with the click or without. There were differences, but they weren't too striking (quite minute) to me (far less striking than where DT are again these days, sadly), if that makes sense. And if these differences are minute, then you are a good player

That's what I figured. If your time is rock solid it's not going to make a huge audible difference especially to a crowd.

[Max Kuehnau]

and if you listen closely here, I'm qute sure that was one of the very few times with DT and MM where there wasn't a click and it still works rather well (https://youtu.be/1tZ-go2CXqo?si=SmOD_m__x-J_o2SE&t=368) And to be honest, it's not a common thing to put a click on whenever you're in the mode of free form jamming (which this is)

[Wim Kruithof]

By far the worst album from DT... The album title is a bit too much.

You would prefer just 'The Aston' or even only 'The A.'?

[Northern Lion]

I listened to The Astonishing during an hour and 20 minute drive the other day.  It almost lasted the entire trip to and from  .  But man what a good album!  I understand criticisms with the lyrics/story, but the music is just soooooo good.  I thoroughly enjoyed my drive.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

It feels like this album is best experienced in a live setting with visual accompaniment, so it is a shame we'll never get that. I would have liked to revisit a full presentation of the album at some point in the future but I suppose I have myself to blame because I deliberately sat out that tour.