- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, EIGHT YEARS On.

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

To me, it's LaBrie's crowning achievement with the band, vocally. So much of it reminds me of Freddie Mercury. Not to say that he doesn't shine on other albums, because he certainly does (Illumination Theory comes to mind, not to mention the entirety of I&W).

That said, I agree with Kyo and several others, in that it probably could've been condensed down to one album. Still, I don't think it deserved the level of negative reaction that it got. I also agree with Kyo, as far as the production observations he mentioned.

[Dedalus]

It would've certainly been different, because there's no way MP would've let JP and JR go off and write the album without him, so I'll give you that. But to assume it would be far superior. Sorry. That's a leap.

But it's the same thing. "MP songwriter" is the same as "MP producer". It's the same function IMO.

I remember participating in a discussion about songwriting credits and the role of MP in songwriting here on DTF years ago.

There are different ways to look at it. The way I see it, MP participates in the creation of the songs in a way that's more or less similar to what Lars does in Metallica (both as producers/arrangers, in my opinion). If MP and Lars played in Iron Maiden, neither of them would have songwriting credits, because in Iron Maiden the credits go to whoever actually composes the music (melodies, chord progressions, etc.)

[TAC]

But it's the same thing. "MP songwriter" is the same as "MP producer". It's the same function IMO.

What do you mean, but? I acknowledged that it would be different. I just pushed back that it would be automatically superior.

[Dedalus]

What do you mean, but? I acknowledged that it would be different. I just pushed back that it would be automatically superior.

It's because others said that TA with MP would be different because of his role as producer, but you said it would be different because MP would interfere as a songwriter.

The way I see things, it's the same role.

I agree with you that under no circumstances with MP in the band would we have an album credited only to JP and JR as songwriters. But at the end of the day, I think it's more a question of how to give credit. MP's participation in the compositions, at least from what we can infer from watching the making ofs, is as a producer/arranger.

In short: I think that if he were there, he would act as an arranger/producer, this would certainly have some impact on the music and he would have composition credit.

[TAC]

It's because others said that TA with MP would be different because of his role as producer, but you said it would be different because MP would interfere as a songwriter.

The way I see things, it's the same role.

I agree with you that under no circumstances with MP in the band would we have an album credited only to JP and JR as songwriters. But at the end of the day, I think it's more a question of how to give credit. MP's participation in the compositions, at least from what we can infer from watching the making ofs, is as a producer/arranger.

In short: I think that if he were there, he would act as an arranger/producer, this would certainly have some impact on the music and he would have composition credit.

Oh OK, I see what you're saying. Yes, that is all true, obviously.

[Thoughtspart3]

I agree that TA would be significantly different if MP was there. I can't imagine he would have been ok with the overall story which is the weakest part of the album in my opinion. MP's taste in movies is far from YA types of stories.

Overall I like the music on TA. I appreciate the variety such as a letting Jordon play beautiful piano interludes or transitions without a wall of guitars drowning it out. This is something they did very well on Scenes. I liked it a lot live as well.   

[DTA]

Has any concept album had a story people actually like?

I'm thinking of all the ones I know and each one is regarded as cheesy and/or non-sensical. Even SFAM (which I find to be a really interesting concept and is a top-tier DT album) has a lot of criticism about the story.

[Adami]

Has any concept album had a story people actually like?

I'm thinking of all the ones I know and each one is regarded as cheesy and/or non-sensical. Even SFAM (which I find to be a really interesting concept and is a top-tier DT album) has a lot of criticism about the story.

I wrote a few that I like. 

[Zydar]

Has any concept album had a story people actually like?

I'm thinking of all the ones I know and each one is regarded as cheesy and/or non-sensical. Even SFAM (which I find to be a really interesting concept and is a top-tier DT album) has a lot of criticism about the story.

You have a point there. Concept albums like Tommy, The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, SFAM, and The Wall have pretty weird stories/plots. 

I'm only a moderate Queensryche listener so I don't really know the story behind O:M, I just enjoy it for the music. 

[KevShmev]

Has any concept album had a story people actually like?

I'm thinking of all the ones I know and each one is regarded as cheesy and/or non-sensical. Even SFAM (which I find to be a really interesting concept and is a top-tier DT album) has a lot of criticism about the story.

I am pretty sure Into the Electric Castle (Ayreon) is a story that literature professors in universities everywhere talk up.

[hefdaddy42]

Has any concept album had a story people actually like?

Not per se, no.  They aren't novelists, screenwriters, playwrights, or directors.  They are musicians.

[Adami]

To me, at least, Pain of Salvation has concept albums that I think are lyrically genius. Remedy Lane, The Perfect Element, and to a much lesser degree BE. Fantastic stories along with amazing music. But those albums are less plot and more emotion with the characters, while I feel like most concept albums in our realm are very plot heavy and focused on exposition.

[Wim Kruithof]

off topic completely

@TAC, what in DTwwbwMP's disappointment is worth so much to put as a personal profile quote, I keep on wondering.

[TAC]

off topic completely

@TAC, what in DTwwbwMP's disappointment is worth so much to put as a personal profile quote, I keep on wondering.

Well, he was quite strongly so vocal about MP coming back and about how much more awesome it was going to be and all that, and then when Night Terror was released he said he was really disappointed by it. I just thought the irony was hilarious.

[hunnus2000]

Well, he was quite strongly so vocal about MP coming back and about how much more awesome it was going to be and all that, and then when Night Terror was released he said he was really disappointed by it. I just thought the irony was hilarious.

OK, I missed something.

[Dedalus]

To me, at least, Pain of Salvation has concept albums that I think are lyrically genius. Remedy Lane, The Perfect Element, and to a much lesser degree BE. Fantastic stories along with amazing music. But those albums are less plot and more emotion with the characters, while I feel like most concept albums in our realm are very plot heavy and focused on exposition.

Good point, although I think BE is the best of all their albums (and the concept is even better).

[Wim Kruithof]

Well, he was quite strongly so vocal about MP coming back and about how much more awesome it was going to be and all that, and then when Night Terror was released he said he was really disappointed by it. I just thought the irony was hilarious.

I did found that very ironic indeed. DTwwbwMPwbtwMPr could be a fair nickname for him right now.

(Dream Theater what would be without Mike Portnoy was better than with Mike Portnoy returning)...

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Sometimes when expectations are too large it becomes nearly impossible to live up to them.

[TAC]

I did found that very ironic indeed. DTwwbwMPwbtwMPr could be a fair nickname for him right now.

(Dream Theater what would be without Mike Portnoy was better than with Mike Portnoy returning)...

 

[Vicez]

Wow, time flies! Even though DT are my favourite band, I don't think I've listened to the full album since it originally came out. Just a couple of songs here and there. And I didn't even hate it or anything, as a matter of fact I did feel like James' performance was spot on at the time. I guess I'll give it another shot!

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

Sometimes when expectations are too large it becomes nearly impossible to live up to them.

You're absolutely right about that.

[Wim Kruithof]

Wow, time flies! Even though DT are my favourite band, I don't think I've listened to the full album since it originally came out.

Your favorite band but not even once spinned the album with full focus? Then you must be real hard on bands that aren't even close to Dream Theater.

[Dream Team]

Wow, time flies! Even though DT are my favourite band, I don't think I've listened to the full album since it originally came out. Just a couple of songs here and there. And I didn't even hate it or anything, as a matter of fact I did feel like James' performance was spot on at the time. I guess I'll give it another shot!

I'm glad my life isn't so hectic that I can't make time to listen to an album over an 8-year time period. 

[MoraWintersoul]

I'm glad my life isn't so hectic that I can't make time to listen to an album over an 8-year time period. 

I don't know about Vicez, but there were plenty of albums to listen to and rediscover over the past 8 years that weren't two hours long and in the "didn't hate" pile for me

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

I don't know about Vicez, but there were plenty of albums to listen to and rediscover over the past 8 years that weren't two hours long and in the "didn't hate" pile for me

Agreed. DT has always been a staple in my rotation of music, but there's so many other great artists out there to appreciate as well.

[Dedalus]

I don't know about Vicez, but there were plenty of albums to listen to and rediscover over the past 8 years that weren't two hours long and in the "didn't hate" pile for me

But isn't there a band that occupies a special place in your appreciation, where you insist on listening to albums you didn't like (at least for a while)?

I don't like BCSL and I don't listen to it anymore, but when it was released I listened to it multiple times. In the years that followed I would occasionally stop to listen to the album, even though I hated it.

And I did this simply because it said "Dream Theater" on the cover and I granted this "privilege" to the band.

I don't do this for just any band. Haken is a good example. I discovered them through "The Mountain" and was fascinated. What a great album! I didn't like practically anything they did after that. I gave up listening to them and didn't even listen to their latest release.

But with DT I find it hard not to listen to a new studio album of theirs at least a few times upon its release.

But you're absolutely right about listening to other stuff. I myself didn't listen to anything by DT for a few years, until we got into this new album cycle.

[MoraWintersoul]

But isn't there a band that occupies a special place in your appreciation, where you insist on listening to albums you didn't like (at least for a while)?

I don't like BCSL and I don't listen to it anymore, but when it was released I listened to it multiple times. In the years that followed I would occasionally stop to listen to the album, even though I hated it.

And I did this simply because it said "Dream Theater" on the cover and I granted this "privilege" to the band.

I generally don't do that. I used to back when they published BCSL and I had a lot less in my backlog to listen to, but by the time they published TA I'd stopped doing that. There's too many albums! They're privileged enough that I finished it

[TheCountOfNYC]

Haken is a good example. I discovered them through "The Mountain" and was fascinated. What a great album! I didn't like practically anything they did after that. I gave up listening to them and didn't even listen to their latest release.

You should give Fauna a spin. I think stylistically it's closer to The Mountain than the three releases in between them.

[hefdaddy42]

But isn't there a band that occupies a special place in your appreciation, where you insist on listening to albums you didn't like (at least for a while)?

No.

At least, not after I have listened to it enough to determine that I definitely don't like it.

Dream Theater is my favorite band, but I dislike both WDADU and BC&SL, and I don't remember the last time I listened to either one.

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

No.

At least, not after I have listened to it enough to determine that I definitely don't like it.

Dream Theater is my favorite band, but I dislike both WDADU and BC&SL, and I don't remember the last time I listened to either one.

I do the same thing with movies. If I disliked it the first time, and definitely know why I disliked it, I don't bother with ever watching it again.

[Dedalus]

It's interesting to see the responses.

It's funny that I end up being quite condescending towards DT, while at the same time being quite hard-nosed towards other bands.

For example, I didn't like Night Terror. If it were another band, I would probably completely ignore the album's release and maybe it would be a few years before I listened to the album (if that actually happened). I have several examples of bands that I listened to a lot for a while and then I simply got tired of them or stopped liking them for some reason and I simply didn't even listen to their new material.

But with DT I think that (at least so far) they have this "benefit" for me.

[Dedalus]

You should give Fauna a spin. I think stylistically it's closer to The Mountain than the three releases in between them.

Really?

I've completely ignored Haken since the release of Virus that I haven't even seen any comments or reviews about the new album (and I only realized this now, with your comment).

Who knows, maybe I'll listen to it one day lol

[TheCountOfNYC]

Really?

I've completely ignored Haken since the release of Virus that I haven't even seen any comments or reviews about the new album (and I only realized this now, with your comment).

Who knows, maybe I'll listen to it one day lol

Yeah. Not an exact carbon copy but it definitely leans less djenty and more atmospheric than the three prior albums.

[gzarruk]

Really?

I've completely ignored Haken since the release of Virus that I haven't even seen any comments or reviews about the new album (and I only realized this now, with your comment).

Who knows, maybe I'll listen to it one day lol

I can't guarantee you'll like Fauna, but I echo that previous post, the album isn't like Vector/Virus and it's closer to The Mountain for sure.

[Dedalus]

Yeah. Not an exact carbon copy but it definitely leans less djenty and more atmospheric than the three prior albums.

I can't guarantee you'll like Fauna, but I echo that previous post, the album isn't like Vector/Virus and it's closer to The Mountain for sure.

Interesting to know that.