DTF’s DT Song Ratings! 1st List released on Page 7! Rating Albums now.

[CDrice]

Here's my average:

Images & Words: 8.69
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.67
Train of Thought: 8.14
Dream Theater: 8.06
Scenes From a Memory: 8,04
Octavarium: 8
When Dream & Day Unite: 8
The Astonishing: 7.97
A Dramatic Turn of Events: 7.88
Awake: 7.86
Black Clouds & Silver Linings: 7.83
Systematic Chaos: 7.71
Falling Into Infinity: 7.64

Other than WDADU and Scenes, it seems close to how I feel about each albums.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

I wonder if these averages are being done while incorporating the song length. That would make sense to me more than simply treating all songs equally, where Through My Words can change an average as much as Home can.

That's a great point. I think the solution is to incorporate a ratio to the equation. You could either do that, or multiply the score you gave each song by the number of minutes in the song (rounded up or down to the nearest minute), add up every number, then divide by total number of minutes on the album.

Either way, I'll post polls for the albums in the coming days, so people can rate them how they see fit.

[Enigmachine]

That's a great point. I think the solution is to incorporate a ratio to the equation. You could either do that, or multiply the score you gave each song by the number of minutes in the song (rounded up or down to the nearest minute), add up every number, then divide by total number of minutes on the album.

When I used to rate albums I did the latter, but with seconds instead of minutes.

[BlackInk]

Just out of interest, what would the average score be for one of your favourite albums?

I found that this way of ranking made for a harsh system. SDoIT actually is one of my favorite albums, so if I'd rate that album as a whole I would probably go above just "good". Also I wouldn't say SFaM is only "okay".

Haken's album Aquarius, perhaps my actual favorite ever, scored an even 8.

[Enigmachine]

Just out of interest, what would the average score be for one of your favourite albums?

I found that this way of ranking made for a harsh system. SDoIT actually is one of my favorite albums, so if I'd rate that album as a whole I would probably go above just "good". Also I wouldn't say SFaM is only "okay".

Haken's album Aquarius, perhaps my actual favorite ever, scored an even 8.

Interesting. It may be harsh because rating in general requires you to be very critical if it's going to mean anything. For me, it tends to fall apart and leaves me feeling cold on music when I try this. It's why I only rated the first few DT albums before realising that I had given everything on IaW + Awake a 10 and gave up.

[BlackInk]

Interesting. It may be harsh because rating in general requires you to be very critical if it's going to mean anything.

That's probably right. I do try my best to rate them properly. And I really don't give out 10s lightly. I think there's less than 5 songs ever I'd give a 10. Maybe just 3.

[Dream Team]

Brother Can You Hear Me - 1/10
A Life Left Behind - 4/10
Ravenskill - 1/10
Chosen - 6/10

This is where the album takes a sharp nosedive for me.

Just the opposite for me, ALLB - Chosen is my fave 3-song run.

[erwinrafael]

I already shared my album means before, but I would now include standard deviations and some individual song rankings. Just for the sake of sharing. 

My scale for means:

8.36 up - Great
8.01 to 8.35 - Good
7.01 to 8.0 - Fair
below 7.0 - Poor

My scale for SD

0 to 0.50 - consistent
0.51 to 1.0 - fairly even
1.0 up - uneven

Great

1. The Astonishing - 8.4483
SD - 0.4014 (consistent)
Highest rating  song - Our New World
Lowest rating song - Whispers in the Wind

2. Dream Theater - 8.4444
SD - 0.5984 (fairly even)
Highest rating  song - Illumination Theory
Lowest rating song - FAS, TEI, EM, AFTR

3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - 8.4167
SD - 0.8859 (fairly even)
Highest rating  song - Misunderstood, SDOIT
Lowest rating song - The Great Debate

4. A Dramatic Turn of Events - 8.3889
SD - 0.6136 (fairly even)
Highest rating  song - Breaking All Illusions
Lowest rating song - OTBOA, BMUBMD, LNF, Outcry, BTS

5. Awake - 8.3636
SD - 0.3748 (consistent)
Highest rating  song - The Mirror, Scarred
Lowest rating song - IF, AMBI Suite, SDV

Good

6. Images and Words - 8.25
SD - 0.559 (fairly even)
Highest rating song - Metropolis Pt. 1
Lowest rating song - Learning to Live

7. Octavarium - 8.0625
SD - 0.6818 (fairly even)
Highest rating song - Octavarium
Lowest rating song - Never Enough, Sacrificed Sons

Fair

8. Train of Thought - 8.0
SD - 0.4629 (consistent)
Highest rating song - Endless Sacrifice, Vacant
Lowest rating song - Honor Thy Father

9. Scenes from a Memory - 8.0
SD - 0.6455 (fairly even)
Highest rating song - Fatal Tragedy
Lowest rating song - Regression, Home, TDOE

10. Falling into Infinity - 7.8181
SD - 1.1134 (uneven)
Highest rating song - Trial of Tears
Lowest rating song - You Not Me

11. Black Clouds and Silver Linings - 7.50
SD -  0.50 (consistent)
Highest rating song - Half of the songs
Lowest rating song - Half of the songs

Poor

12. Systematic Chaos - 6.8571
SD - 0.9897 (fairly even)
Highest rating song - ITPOE, TDEN
Lowest rating song - Prophets of War

13. When Dream and Day Unite - 6.75
SD - 0.8292 (fairly even)
Highest rating song - Afterlife
Lowest rating song - Status Seeker

[BlobVanDam]

Going by just a simple average of all of my scores, this is how the albums would rank for me. Of course this is just an average song rating rather than an album rating, as it doesn't account for song length, consistency, anomalies, or the fact that certain albums work better/worse as albums due to the album experience and flow etc. I ain't doing any more complex math on it than this.

SDOIT - 9.25
FII - 8.45
IAW - 8.44
TOT - 8.28
8V - 8.25
SFAM - 8.21

SC - 7.79
BCASL - 7.67
ADTOE - 6.67
Awake - 6.45
DT12 - 6.44

TA - 4.57 (disc 1 - 5.79, disc 2 - 2.83)
WDADU - 3.56


I was interested in what would come out on top between FII and IAW, since for years they've fought for #3 spot, so I find it hilarious that they ended up so close here. The only thing that brought down IAW's average is WFS/LTL though. TOT and 8V have always been close for me, so again I'm not surprised they're so close in score. I knew SFAM would rank lower by this method, as it's much greater than the sum of its parts, and I rank it #2 as an album.
Beyond that top tier of 6, I had no idea how that middle tier would rank from this, because they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. I knew DT12 would come out on the bottom of that group, but didn't realize how close Awake would be considering how much more I like it overall. It's just the very low rating of the last few tracks that drags the average into the gutter.
I knew TA and WDADU would come last. No surprises there.

[KevShmev]

There is no exact science, but I don't think taking the average of each song (or minute ) is always an accurate way of ranking an entire album, since it doesn't into account flow, cohesiveness, etc.  For example, some might say that Scenes doesn't have many songs they would call a 10, but they might say the album as a whole is a 10, which makes perfect sense. Heck, looking at another band, if I had to rank all 26 songs off The Wall individually, many would be in the 6-8 range, but the album as a whole is still a 9.5 or 10 for me.

[Agalsed]

My rankings:

IAW: 9.31
Awake: 9.18
FII: 6.81
Scenes: 8.88
6DOIT: 9.75
TOT: 9.14
8VM: 8.75
SC: 8.14
BCSL: 8.16
ADTOE: 7.88
DT: 7.5
TA:8.29

I didn't rate anything on WDADU because I reallllly don't like that album and don't feel I can accurately rate.

[Outcrier]

Average rating and how i actually rate the album (0-10 scale).

Six Degrees - 9,00 / 8

Scenes - 8,00 / 7
Images - 7,94 / 7
Awake - 7,73 / 7
Train of Thought - 7,36 / 7

Octavarium - 7,00 / 6
A Dramatic Turn - 6,44 / 6
Falling into Infinity - 6,36 / 6

Black Clouds - 5,83 / 5
Dream Theater - 5,78 / 5
The Astonishing - 5,66 / 5
Systematic Chaos - 5,64 /5

When a Day and Dream Unite - 4,75 / 4

Overall song average: 6,73
Album rating average - 6,00

Well, you can see that i'm not that much into Dream Theater anymore, but i still love this forum.

[hefdaddy42]

There is no exact science, but I don't think taking the average of each song (or minute ) is always an accurate way of ranking an entire album, since it doesn't into account flow, cohesiveness, etc.  For example, some might say that Scenes doesn't have many songs they would call a 10, but they might say the album as a whole is a 10, which makes perfect sense. Heck, looking at another band, if I had to rank all 26 songs off The Wall individually, many would be in the 6-8 range, but the album as a whole is still a 9.5 or 10 for me.

I agree.  An album is more than the sum of its parts.

[SchecterShredder]

My album rankings based on the individual song ratings (No WDADU....never listened to it really):

SFAM    7.58
BC&SL    7.50
ToT            7.43
I&W            6.50
ADToE    6.50
OCT            6.44
SC            6.14
SDOIT    5.50
FII            5.14
TA            4.81
DT13    4.28
AWAKE    4.09

First time I've actually thought about how I would rank the albums based on individual songs, as opposed to gut feeling about how much I enjoy a particular album. I was kinda surprised that I ended up ranking Images & Words as high as  I do considering the only song that gets regular rotation for me these days is Metropolis. Interesting exercise though.

[SchecterShredder]

If I split up The Astonishing into Act 1 & 2, Act 2 goes to the very bottom of my rankings, and Act 1 moves ahead of FII and Six Degrees


SFAM    7.58
BC&SL    7.50
ToT            7.43
I&W            6.50
ADToE    6.50
OCT            6.44
SC            6.14
TA1            5.65
SDOIT    5.50
FII            5.14
TA (full)    4.81
DT13    4.28
AWAKE    4.09
TA2       3.63

[Destiny Of Chaos]

DT - The List!
Version 1 - April 2016


After calculating the average rating for almost 150 songs, I am ready to unveil the first version of DTF's official song rating list! The List is as follows:

1. Learning to Live – 9.329
2. Metropolis – 9.319
3. A Change of Seasons – 9.266
4. Octavarium – 9.138
5. Breaking All Illusions – 9.080
6. Finally Free – 9.066
7. Fatal Tragedy – 8.990
8. Voices – 8.900
9. In the Name of God – 8.888
10. Home - 8.873
11. Overture 1928 - 8.849
12. Take the Time – 8.843 
13. Scarred – 8.713
14. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence – 8.707
15. Strange déjà vu – 8.667
16. The Glass Prison – 8.613
17. Trial of Tears – 8.559
18. The Mirror – 8.532
19. The Count of Tuscany – 8.500
20. Surrounded – 8.472
21. Lines in the Sand – 8.452
22. Under a Glass Moon – 8.444
23. Bridges in the Sky – 8.394
24. Pull Me Under – 8.392 
25. Misunderstood – 8.389
26. Three Days – 8.369
T27. Blind Faith – 8.333
T27. Hell’s Kitchen – 8.333
29. The Spirit Carries On – 8.327
30. Erotomania – 8.302
31. Space-Dye Vest – 8.169
32. A New Beginning – 8.167
33. The Root of All Evil – 8.163
34. The Path That Divides – 8.121
35. Another Day – 8.106
T36. Beyond This Life – 8.105
T36. Lord Nafaryus – 8.105
38. Wait For Sleep – 8.094
T39. Endless Sacrifice – 8.089
T39. The Dance of Eternity – 8.089
41. Illumination Theory – 8.077
42. Stream of Consciousness – 8.076
43. One Last Time – 8.061
44. In the Presence of Enemies – 8.019
45. Sacrificed Sons – 8.000
46. Disappear – 7.968
47. Dystopian Overture – 7.950
48. Peruvian Skies – 7.915
49. Moment of Betrayal – 7.909
50. 6:00 – 7.900
T51. As I Am – 7.889
T51. Ravenskill – 7.889
53. A Better Life – 7.803
54. Caught in a Web – 7.787
55. On the Backs of Angels – 7.786
56. Our New World – 7.766
57. To Live Forever – 7.563
58. Outcry – 7.761
T59. The Great Debate – 7.755
T59. Lie – 7.755
61. The Bigger Picture – 7.744
62. Lifting Shadows Off a Dream – 7.731
63. These Walls – 7.730
64. The Gift of Music – 7.724
65. A Savior in the Square – 7.706
66. Panic Attack – 7.646
67. The Enemy Inside – 7.591
68. The X Aspect – 7.561
69. Innocence Faded – 7.545
70. Vacant – 7.538
71. A Life Left Behind – 7.485
72. The Walking Shadow – 7.483
73. This is the Life – 7.476
74. The Killing Hand – 7.466
75. Surrender to Reason – 7.436
76. Raise the Knife – 7.433
77. The Ytse Jam – 7.415
78. Behind the Veil – 7.408
79. This Dying Soul – 7.378
80. A Nightmare to Remember – 7.360
81. The Ministry of Lost Souls – 7.344
82. Afterlife – 7.340
83. The Silent Man – 7.333
84. Speak to Me – 7.300
85. Heaven’s Cove – 7.268
86. Honor Thy Father – 7.250
87. 2285 Entr’acte  - 7.224
88. The Looking Glass – 7.184
89. Beneath the Surface – 7.179
90. My Last Farewell – 7.161
91. When Your Time Has Come – 7.156
92. A Tempting Offer – 7.150
93. Hollow Years – 7.138
94. Lost Not Forgotten – 7.128
95. Don’t Look Past Me – 7.105
96. Wither – 7.104
97. The Road to Revolution – 7.078
98. Astonishing – 7.032
99. Forsaken – 7.020
T100. The Answer – 7.000
T100. Chosen – 7.000
T100. Eve – 7.000
T100. Through Her Eyes – 7.000
104. A Fortune in lies – 6.901
105. Through My Words – 6.881
106. Constant Motion  - 6.837
107. False Awakening Suite – 6.803
108. The Shattered Fortress – 6.802
109. Never Enough – 6.792
110. New Millennium – 6.730
111. Far From Heaven – 6.688
112. I Walk Beside You – 6.683
T113. Act of Faythe – 6.676
T113. Along For the Ride – 6.676
115. The Way It Used to Be – 6.625
116. The Answer Lies Within – 6.564
117. The Best of Times – 6.543
118. Brother, Can You Hear Me? – 6.515
119. Only a Matter of Time – 6.500
120. Begin Again – 6.433
121. The Dark Eternal Night – 6.406
122. Anna Lee – 6.378
123. Hymn of a Thousand Voices – 6.375
124. Repentance – 6.333
125. Regression – 6.314
126. Build Me Up, Break Me Down – 6.279
127. Cover My Eyes – 6.211
128. Enigma Machine – 6.158
129. A Rite of Passage – 6.122
130. Take Away My Pain – 6.090
131. Losing Faythe – 6.000
132. The Ones That Help to Set the Sun – 5.957
133. Prophets of War – 5.826
134. Another Won – 5.796
135. Light Fuse and Get Away – 5.783
136. Burning My Soul – 5.750
137. Just Let Me Breathe – 5.733
138. Whispers On the Wind – 5.315
139. Where Are You Now? – 5.100
140. You Not Me – 4.780
141. Status Seeker – 4.471
142. You or Me – 4.367
143. Raw Dog – 4.086
144. A Vision – 3.882
145. March of the Tyrant – 3.714
146. Your Majesty – 3.525
147. Two Far – 3.467
148. Vital Star – 3.200






The polls are all still open. If you didn't vote yet, please feel free to so that your opinions play a part when the list is updated next. If you already voted, you are able to change the rating that you voted for if your tastes should change overall.

Thank you all for taking the time to vote. Feel free to discuss the results of your list!

[erwinrafael]

Thanks, DoC!

I will never understand the love for Learning to Live (to me, it is, at best, a prototype  of future DT songs), but if the community loves it, then it is number 1.

[Crow]

well, my top 5 are all in the top 50 at least 

[TheCountOfNYC]

My top 10 is all within the top 106...

[Outcrier]

There's gonna be album ratings too, DoC?

[KevShmev]

Songs that should be much lower:

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Root of All Evil
The Path That Divides
In the Presence of Enemies
Sacrificed Sons
On the Backs of Angels
Constant Motion (106 still seems way too high )

Songs that should be much higher:

Take the Time
Scarred
Erotomania
Lifting Shadows Off a Dream
Chosen
Only a Matter of Time
Light Fuse and Get Away

[BlobVanDam]

Such a strange list, DTF.

Songs that should be much lower (I don't think any of these would make my top 50):

Learning to Live
A Change of Seasons
Breaking All Illusions
Scarred
Space-Dye Vest
The Path That Divides
Wait For Sleep
Illumination Theory
Moment of Betrayal

Songs that should be much higher: (much longer list )

Take the Time
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Glass Prison
Trial of Tears
Lines in the Sand
Blind Faith
The Spirit Carries On
The Root of All Evil
Beyond This Life
Disappear
Peruvian Skies
As I Am
Our New World
These Walls
Panic Attack
Innocence Faded
Vacant
A Nightmare to Remember
The Silent Man
Hollow Years
Constant Motion
New Millennium
Act of Faythe
The Dark Eternal Night
Anna Lee
A Rite of Passage
Just Let Me Breathe

[TheCountOfNYC]

Such a strange list, DTF.

Songs that should be much lower (I don't think any of these would make my top 50):

Learning to Live
A Change of Seasons
Breaking All Illusions
Scarred
Space-Dye Vest
The Path That Divides
Wait For Sleep
Illumination Theory
Moment of Betrayal

Songs that should be much higher: (much longer list )

Take the Time
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Glass Prison
Trial of Tears
Lines in the Sand
Blind Faith
The Spirit Carries On
The Root of All Evil
Beyond This Life
Disappear
Peruvian Skies
As I Am
Our New World
These Walls
Panic Attack
Innocence Faded
Vacant
A Nightmare to Remember
The Silent Man
Hollow Years
Constant Motion
New Millennium
Act of Faythe
The Dark Eternal Night
Anna Lee
A Rite of Passage
Just Let Me Breathe

I agree with everything that's bolded.

[Mladen]

Great job with the list, DTF! Top 10 looks realy solid. Thanks for doing this, Doc. 

[SchecterShredder]

Lists like this show exactly how polarizing Dream Theater can be. I have 6 of the top ten in my personal top 10 (Metropolis, Count of Tuscany, Change of Seasons, Finally Free, Fatal Tragedy, Home, In the Name of God), but the other 4 in the top 10 are way down the list for me (Breaking All Illusions- 34, Learning to Live- 35, Octavarium- 71, Voices- 101).

Panic Attack got a raw deal on this list. It's top 3 for me, and only made it to 66 in the poll. Boo-urns 

Great work putting this together!

[Outcrier]

I'm fine with the list. Only song that is too high for my personal tastes is BAI.

[erwinrafael]

One thing I noticed is that the latter era DT songs scored lower not really because less people like them but because who dislike them give them really low scores. It's as if people who dislike latter day DT just actively dislike the output.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

Here are the album rankings using average song rating:

1.   Images & Words – 8.625
2.   Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence – 8.294
3.   Scenes From a Memory – 8.102
4.   Awake – 8.061
5.   Train of Thought – 7.873
6.   Octavarium – 7.590
7.   A Dramatic Turn of Events – 7.530
8.   Dream Theater – 7.231
9.   The Astonishing – 7.290
10.   Black Clouds & Silver Linings – 7.072
11.   Falling Into Infinity – 6.896
12.   Systematic Chaos – 6.826
13.   When Dream & Day Unite – 6.479


As pointed out earlier, this doesn't necessarily reflect how people will rate the albums. The album polls will start shortly, so you can begin rating them. 

[hefdaddy42]

On the song list, the top 3 are also my personal top 3.

On the album list, the top 4 are also my personal top 4.

All is well.

[Dream Team]

I'm happy ACOS beat out OV.

[SchecterShredder]

Such a strange list, DTF.

Songs that should be much lower (I don't think any of these would make my top 50):

Learning to Live
A Change of Seasons
Breaking All Illusions
Scarred
Space-Dye Vest
The Path That Divides
Wait For Sleep
Illumination Theory
Moment of Betrayal

How on earth is A Change of Seasons not in your top 50? That seems crazy to me.

[Enigmachine]

Such a strange list, DTF.

Songs that should be much lower (I don't think any of these would make my top 50):

Learning to Live
A Change of Seasons
Breaking All Illusions
Scarred
Space-Dye Vest
The Path That Divides
Wait For Sleep
Illumination Theory
Moment of Betrayal

Add one more song and that could be a great top 10 list.

[BlackInk]

My top 10:

3. A Change of Seasons – 9.266
4. Octavarium – 9.138
44. In the Presence of Enemies – 8.019
16. The Glass Prison – 8.613
9. In the Name of God – 8.888
6. Finally Free – 9.066
T27. Blind Faith – 8.333
10. Home - 8.873
17. Trial of Tears – 8.559
1. Learning to Live – 9.329

DTF seems to agree with six of them.

[Scar]

Well, I just finished listening to Images and Words twice so it might be still too early, but eh.

Images and Words- 7
Another Day- 9.5
Take The Time- 8.5
Surrounded- 7.5
Metropolis Part 1- 5.5
Under A Glass Moon- 8
Wait for Sleep- 10
Learning to Live- 5

[Destiny Of Chaos]

As demanded...

When Dream & Day Unite: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=46900.0
Images & Words: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=46901.0
Awake: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=46902.0