The loudness war (formerly RR petition thread)

[Zook]

Even though there is a horrendous amount of clipping, my issue with The Enemy Inside is still that James is mixed too low. I can hear him, I can make out all his lines, but the fact that he's at a low volume annoys me.

[soulburner]

I am not an audiophile. I use cheap 5.1 computer speakers as my main source of music and I don't enjoy overcompressed audio. I hear everything that you can read about when people complain.

So you listen to Systematic Chaos on your 5.1 speakers, and you hear crackling that results from clipping?

I hear clipping, yes. It doesn't bother me too much most of the time but I can hear it.
BTW, I listen to stereo music in stereo mode, I don't use any "surround" modes to use all 6 speakers.

[Kotowboy]

The Enemy Inside is nowhere near as bad as the last few minutes of The Day That Never Comes - so I can still listen to it.

I don't get that fatigue from listening to it.

Green Day's 21st Century Breakdown is really loud and very audibly clipped in places and as such - I never want to listen to that album.

[Thoughtspart3]

Worse audio equipment makes bad music sound "better" in the same way that squinting and blurring your eyes makes an ugly chick look better.

Well, it's what's inside that counts, right? 

The more it is talked about it, the more people know it is happening and what it means for music, the more people willing to do something about it.  So educating people is always good.

Honestly, all I've ever heard is people complaining. Somebody offering to petition RR is as close to a solution as I've heard. But aside from that, all I've ever heard are complaints, and not once have I heard someone mention how they're willing to actually do something about it, aside from finding their own workarounds, like you did with that plug-in. And that's certainly not going to make the industry change its mind.

Well, I have been doing things about it.  I take the time to email companies that produce bad sound as well as good sound.  I have sent glowing emails to HD Tracks whenever they release a dynamic album.  The more people that do this the more companies will take notice. 

Things do change sometimes and things do get back to the band.  I would bet that DT has heard already that people are not crazy about the audio production.  I don't know if they will do anything about it but I think we should speak up when we see a problem because we are paying customers. (I hope we are all paying customers)

[7StringedBeast]

The only email for road runner that i find on their site is their publicity one.  Is there another one where I would be able to send in my concerns?

[Kotowboy]

Maybe tweet them and ask them @RRUsa

[7StringedBeast]

I don't really twitter and not enough characters to voice my concern, but a good thought. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, I have been doing things about it.  I take the time to email companies that produce bad sound as well as good sound.  I have sent glowing emails to HD Tracks whenever they release a dynamic album.  The more people that do this the more companies will take notice. 

Things do change sometimes and things do get back to the band.  I would bet that DT has heard already that people are not crazy about the audio production.  I don't know if they will do anything about it but I think we should speak up when we see a problem because we are paying customers. (I hope we are all paying customers)

Well, there ya go. That's something.

[Thoughtspart3]

Another thing we can do is only purchase a dynamic version if we have a choice. That is assuming there will be an HD Tracks version for DT like the one for ADTOE.  It could make a difference if word is spread to not buy the retail version and only purchase the dynamic one. This would be a tangible way to send a message. It is hard though because we don't even know if one is coming.  We would also miss the fun of experienceing the new music with everyone else while we wait for the later HD version.

I told myself I was going to wait for the HD Tracks version for DT but I already caved and pre-ordered it to get the single.  My main motivation was to see what the sound was going to be like.  To my chagrin it was worse than ADTOE. 

[TheGreatPretender]

The only problem I have with that is that I want to have the physical version of the album. I don't mind having an HD tracks version in ADDITION to the original. But unless they start releasing a dynamic or "HD Tracks" version of the albums in hard copy, then I'll still be buying the CD version, no matter how compressed it is.

[7StringedBeast]

The only problem I have with that is that I want to have the physical version of the album. I don't mind having an HD tracks version in ADDITION to the original. But unless they start releasing a dynamic or "HD Tracks" version of the albums in hard copy, then I'll still be buying the CD version, no matter how compressed it is.

You mean, a well mastered proper album?  haha. 









Ugh...

[TheGreatPretender]

The only problem I have with that is that I want to have the physical version of the album. I don't mind having an HD tracks version in ADDITION to the original. But unless they start releasing a dynamic or "HD Tracks" version of the albums in hard copy, then I'll still be buying the CD version, no matter how compressed it is.

You mean, a well mastered proper album?  haha. 









Ugh...

Although, you know, "HD Version" of an album is a great marketing name. I mean, you go to shop for music, and you see an album that's just as is, and you see one that says, "Properly mastered." It's only natural to assume that they're all 'properly mastered'. But if you see, "HD version," those who don't know about compression and all that will probably be more willing to buy that.

[7StringedBeast]

Personally I hate the term HD.  Mostly because it is my living.  So when people use HD it just grinds my gears unless they are talking about video resolution.

[TheGreatPretender]

Personally I hate the term HD.  Mostly because it is my living.  So when people use HD it just grinds my gears unless they are talking about video resolution.

Well, sometimes you gotta bite the bullet on certain aspects. If advertising them as HD music helps them sell, and get people to appreciate uncompressed audio better, then it's worth it, I'd say.

[7StringedBeast]

Eh I'd rather just pay normal price for a properly mastered album instead of having to shell out more cash for a product I should be getting anyways.

[TheGreatPretender]

Yeah, but starting to release "HD Tracks" versions of the albums in hard copy and more widely is certainly a step in the right direction.

[BlobVanDam]

Personally I hate the term HD.  Mostly because it is my living.  So when people use HD it just grinds my gears unless they are talking about video resolution.

I'm with ya! HD is becoming a generic term for "better than the alternative". I don't mind it being used in this context for audio though, because in the same way that HD can refer to anything better than SD, I can accept HD for audio referring to anything better than CD/DVD quality of 44.1/48Khz. If anything, 96Khz/24bit audio should definitely count as "HD".

But it annoys me when people use it incorrectly for video, not realizing it is a defined term with an actual meaning, and not just "durrr it looks purdy". I made a video that was a recreation of a 16 bit video game, and everyone calls it "HD". THE VIDEO IS 360P! THAT'S NOT EVEN SD!

[7StringedBeast]

Personally I hate the term HD.  Mostly because it is my living.  So when people use HD it just grinds my gears unless they are talking about video resolution.

I'm with ya! HD is becoming a generic term for "better than the alternative". I don't mind it being used in this context for audio though, because in the same way that HD can refer to anything better than SD, I can accept HD for audio referring to anything better than CD/DVD quality of 44.1/48Khz. If anything, 96Khz/24bit audio should definitely count as "HD".

But it annoys me when people use it incorrectly for video, not realizing it is a defined term with an actual meaning, and not just "durrr it looks purdy". I made a video that was a recreation of a 16 bit video game, and everyone calls it "HD". THE VIDEO IS 360P! THAT'S NOT EVEN SD!

Yeah I feel you man.  I'm a colorist/online editor so I deal with stuff like this a lot.  So being close to this stuff means I just cringe a lot.  Especially on commercials selling glasses that make you see in HD, I mean holy fuck 

[TheGreatPretender]

But it annoys me when people use it incorrectly for video, not realizing it is a defined term with an actual meaning, and not just "durrr it looks purdy". I made a video that was a recreation of a 16 bit video game, and everyone calls it "HD". THE VIDEO IS 360P! THAT'S NOT EVEN SD!

Well, that's just silly.

[aprilethereal]

Especially on commercials selling glasses that make you see in HD

What

[Kotowboy]

Especially on commercials selling glasses that make you see in HD

What

yeah i've seen plenty of Youtube videos purporting to be in HD when they are in480.


  I remember Jan 1st 2000 - On the news loads of gullible people had rushed to their local GP complaining that they'd caught the Millenium bug.

I had a good laugh about that...

[bobs23]

Personally I hate the term HD.  Mostly because it is my living.  So when people use HD it just grinds my gears unless they are talking about video resolution.

I'm with ya! HD is becoming a generic term for "better than the alternative". I don't mind it being used in this context for audio though, because in the same way that HD can refer to anything better than SD, I can accept HD for audio referring to anything better than CD/DVD quality of 44.1/48Khz. If anything, 96Khz/24bit audio should definitely count as "HD".

But it annoys me when people use it incorrectly for video, not realizing it is a defined term with an actual meaning, and not just "durrr it looks purdy". I made a video that was a recreation of a 16 bit video game, and everyone calls it "HD". THE VIDEO IS 360P! THAT'S NOT EVEN SD!

Yeah I feel you man.  I'm a colorist/online editor so I deal with stuff like this a lot.  So being close to this stuff means I just cringe a lot.  Especially on commercials selling glasses that make you see in HD, I mean holy fuck 

Sorry to go OT. @7SB. A fellow colorist?! Never ran across another colorist on music boards. Where are you located?
Back OT. It really should read High Resolution audio.

[7StringedBeast]

Especially on commercials selling glasses that make you see in HD

What

lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKYKyIObXyM

@Bobs I'm in NYC

[Kotowboy]

The new Trivium song Strife sounds horribly compressed. That or the guitars are really really tinny.

Either way it hurts to listen to.

[TheGreatPretender]

yeah i've seen plenty of Youtube videos purporting to be in HD when they are in480.

Yeah, but you gotta wonder whether that's out of ignorance, or just because they want to get more views.

[Thoughtspart3]

The only problem I have with that is that I want to have the physical version of the album. I don't mind having an HD tracks version in ADDITION to the original. But unless they start releasing a dynamic or "HD Tracks" version of the albums in hard copy, then I'll still be buying the CD version, no matter how compressed it is.

I agree with you on that.  I always purchase a physical version even if I know it will be compressed, especially DT.   However, I would be willing to forgo it if there was a bunch of other fans willing to do it to make a statement.

[Thoughtspart3]

One thing I have not bought at all is DT's live concerts since Score.  I was really disappointed that the audio, at least to my ears, sounded compressed.  I can't listen to Score for very long.  It starts to bother my ears.  I noticed a huge difference when I bought and listened to Peter Gabriel's Growing up Live DVD. The sound is so much more clear.  It feels like you are at the concert.

Can anyone else confirm this?  What about their newer live DVD's?

 Since I have no way of remastering the audio on DVD's I have not purchased them. 

[TL]

One thing I have not bought at all is DT's live concerts since Score.  I was really disappointed that the audio, at least to my ears, sounded compressed.  I can't listen to Score for very long.  It starts to bother my ears.  I noticed a huge difference when I bought and listened to Peter Gabriel's Growing up Live DVD. The sound is so much more clear.  It feels like you are at the concert.

Can anyone else confirm this?  What about their newer live DVD's?

 Since I have no way of remastering the audio on DVD's I have not purchased them.

So just Chaos In Motion?
Yeah, Chaos In Motion is pretty sub-par as far as live releases go. The behind the scenes stuff is pretty neat, but the actual concert footage isn't particularly well captured.

If you're including Score, I've never had a problem with anything about that release, though I would certainly buy a BluRay release of it.

[TheGreatPretender]

When I watch Score, I listen to the 5.1 surround sound mix on my 2.0 speakers, which sounds a LOT better than the Stereo Mix, and much less compressed. Which is kind of weird that the 5.1 mix would actually sound better on stereo speakers than the proper stereo mix. But I'd suggest double checking that your DVD player doesn't accidentally put it on Stereo by default. I've had some wonky things randomly happen with DVDs, including automatic subtitles, and other stuff like that.

[soulburner]

The new Trivium song Strife sounds horribly compressed. That or the guitars are really really tinny.

Either way it hurts to listen to.

Yes, it does sound horrible (DR5, ReplayGain -12.54dB). Becomes surprisingly much more bearable after using my "enhancement" method but that's not really the point.

This is looking good, though: https://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=44731

[Kotowboy]

So is DR5 louder or less louder than DR7 ?

Blob said my song was DR7 . Dunno if that's good or bad .

[Thoughtspart3]

DR just means dynamic range.  The higher the number the more dynamic range which is generally better.  So a DR7 would be better than a DR5. 

[nikatapi]

I wonder if the FLAC files that come with the special edition of the new DT album will have a different mastering, otherwise it is just a stupid idea to include them.

Too bad i can't purchase the deluxe edition, i guess we'll have to read the impressions of people who got it.

[soulburner]

So is DR5 louder or less louder than DR7 ?

Blob said my song was DR7 . Dunno if that's good or bad .

The higher the DR number the better. Usually rock music starts to sound OK with DR8, the best sweet spot is around 10. Most of old Pink Floyd and original Iron Maiden CD releases from the 1980s are ~DR14.

[seasonsinthesky]

I wonder if the FLAC files that come with the special edition of the new DT album will have a different mastering, otherwise it is just a stupid idea to include them.

Too bad i can't purchase the deluxe edition, i guess we'll have to read the impressions of people who got it.

i doubt it. including the digital files is for convenience, not for alternate mastering — but i guess we'll have to wait and see...