The Systematic Chaos Appreciation (and explanation of disappreciation) Thread

[darkshade]

He did it on The Shattered Fortress on Black Clouds & Silver Linings.

[Herrick]

I think Portnoy did the weird deep voice thing on Train of Thought as well...whichever song is part of The 12 Step Suite.

This Dying Soul?  Nope, you must be thinking of something else.  I'm pretty sure it's just Repentance.

He did it on The Shattered Fortress on Black Clouds & Silver Linings.

Whoops, my mistake

[IDontNotDoThings]

The spoken-word part is in TDS as well, but it's JLB doing it & there's no deep voice filter. ("These tormented ghosts of yesterday...")

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I listened to ITPOE Pt. 2 for the first time in years yesterday.

It's an exciting ride, for sure, but to me is one of DT's more uninspired epics, It's got amazing parts like the "angels fall" chorus and the "orchestral" reprise of the main motiff at the end but oh boy, Pt. 1 is so much better as a standalone piece. I'm aware they split the song up because they thought it was amazing as an album opener and as an album closer, but I'm so glad they did. ITPOE Pt. 1 reminds me a lot of the straightforward, edgy and shorter song style they've been exploring in the Mangini era with ADOTE, DT12 and DOT which I do like a lot.

[darkshade]

I listened to ITPOE Pt. 2 for the first time in years yesterday.

It's an exciting ride, for sure, but to me is one of DT's more uninspired epics, It's got amazing parts like the "angels fall" chorus and the "orchestral" reprise of the main motiff at the end but oh boy, Pt. 1 is so much better as a standalone piece. I'm aware they split the song up because they thought it was amazing as an album opener and as an album closer, but I'm so glad they did. ITPOE Pt. 1 reminds me a lot of the straightforward, edgy and shorter song style they've been exploring in the Mangini era with ADOTE, DT12 and DOT which I do like a lot.

I think ITPOE works better split up as well.

Even putting just Ministry of Lost Souls in between pt 1 and pt 2 is great, and a strong single vinyl length album.

[KevShmev]

I agree that it works better as two different songs as well.  It's not great enough to be a 25-minute song, IMO, but it works well as being two good songs at mini-epic lengths, so to speak.  Similar to the Six Degrees titular suite, I'd probably never listen to it if it were one track, but since it's broken up, I do sometimes.

[darkshade]

I agree that it works better as two different songs as well.  It's not great enough to be a 25-minute song, IMO, but it works well as being two good songs at mini-epic lengths, so to speak.  Similar to the Six Degrees titular suite, I'd probably never listen to it if it were one track, but since it's broken up, I do sometimes.

For some reason, with written compositions at least, once you approach the 40 minute mark, it just feels easier to digest if it's broken up into separate tracks, even if you just listen to it straight through every time. I listen to things like Six Degrees or The Whirlwind straight through every time, even though they're tracked. I rarely, if ever, listen to the individual tracks. But it's good as a placeholder to see where we're at while the music is happening.

[Cool Chris]

For me it's 25 minutes, and even that is pushing it.

[IDontNotDoThings]

For me it's 25 minutes, and even that is pushing it.

Agreed. I've heard very few 25+ minute tracks I wouldn't want to either split up or shorten. Off the top of my head, only Cassandra Gemini comes to mind. I know that long songs are an appealing thing to prog fans, but I think side-long epics are usually long enough for me.

[Herrick]

I agree that it works better as two different songs as well.  It's not great enough to be a 25-minute song, IMO, but it works well as being two good songs at mini-epic lengths, so to speak.  Similar to the Six Degrees titular suite, I'd probably never listen to it if it were one track, but since it's broken up, I do sometimes.

For some reason, with written compositions at least, once you approach the 40 minute mark, it just feels easier to digest if it's broken up into separate tracks, even if you just listen to it straight through every time. I listen to things like Six Degrees or The Whirlwind straight through every time, even though they're tracked. I rarely, if ever, listen to the individual tracks. But it's good as a placeholder to see where we're at while the music is happening.

I didn't know The Whirlwind was one whole song. Agreed about the niceness of having long pieces split up.

[svisser]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.

I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.

It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.

 

[Architeuthis]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.

I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.

It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.

Agree on everything you said!  A lot of great riffing and story telling,   TDEN is the coolest song ever written on the 7 string guitar. 

[Dedalus]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.

I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.

It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.

THE DARK ETERNAL NIGHT

[IDontNotDoThings]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.

I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.

It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.

THE DARK ETERNAL NIGHT

is good.

[Architeuthis]

×2
The Dark Eternal Night  RULZ!   

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

As usual JP knocked it out of the park with the TDEN guitar work 

[svisser]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.

I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.

It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.

THE DARK ETERNAL NIGHT

Is it really though? I mean, structurally it works. The only bad part about it was MP trying to make JL sound bad ass. Like I said before, this was their fun album. So, why can't TDEN just be considered fun? Sure it's probably their weirdest song, but its' not like it's objectively bad. It's not Burning My Soul. 

[Trav86]

The Dark Eternal Night is a great DT metal song. Burning My Soul is a great DT metal song. TDEN is more technical and expansive but BMS has LaBrie doing a more natural aggressive voice. They’re both super fun, and great live!

[The Letter M]

The Dark Nintendo Night

I still can't believe they showed this while on tour too! 

HE

IS

RISEN UP

-Marc.

[Dream Team]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.

I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.

It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.

It really wasn’t necessary . . .

[erwinrafael]

The Dark Eternal Night sounded so much better during the Images, Words, and Beyond tour.

[pg1067]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.

I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.

It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.

REPENTANCE

ftfEVERYONE

I completely agree with "svisser" regarding TDEN

[bosk1]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.

I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.

It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.

No problem with resurrecting it.  (although I thought there was a more recent one, but whatever)

IMO, there are some "bad" songs.  But there are also some spectacular ones.  To me, it is a very inconsistent album, and as I've said many times in the past, I put it right alongside Images & Words in that regard.  But I'll take In the Presence of Enemies, Forsaken, Constant Motion, and TDEN any day of the week.  As for the others:
-Repentance:  Some really great ideas that suffer a bit because of the role this track played in the overall 12SS.  I really loved it the first few listens, but it doesn't have much replay value for me as a standalone song.  And, again, viewed as a standalone song, even the really good ideas (e.g., the confessions part) drag on too long and start to feel very monotonous to me.  When played as part of the entire suite, it fits better.
-Prophets:  Easily my least favorite DT song ever.  (although the ruff underneath the chorus is pretty cool)
-TMOLS:  Great instrumental section, but the song overall bores me to tears.  (although it works better as an album closer if the tracks are rearranged)

But I'll also point out a couple of other things:
1.  The things I've said about those last three songs are probably the most unkind opinions I have of any of DT's music.  And, again, I really love the other songs.
2.  Since SC came out, my "modified" track listing might be my most listened to DT album.

[Trav86]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.

I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.

It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.

REPENTANCE

ftfEVERYONE

I completely agree with "svisser" regarding TDEN

Yes! Repentance is the one song in their catalog that really gets under my skin.  The few times that I don’t skip it I keep going “why???” the whole time I’m listening to it. Why make an obvious Opeth ballad. The idea of having the guest speakers isn’t terrible, but why make it go in twice as long as it should have. And then that droning riff that goes on and on and on. Then more spoken word at the end. It should end like five different times. Of course, it’s not all bad because JP has to walk in and play a badass solo because everything he does is so fucking perfect.

/rant

[svisser]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.

I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.

It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.

REPENTANCE

ftfEVERYONE

I completely agree with "svisser" regarding TDEN

Yes! Repentance is the one song in their catalog that really gets under my skin.  The few times that I don’t skip it I keep going “why???” the whole time I’m listening to it. Why make an obvious Opeth ballad. The idea of having the guest speakers isn’t terrible, but why make it go in twice as long as it should have. And then that droning riff that goes on and on and on. Then more spoken word at the end. It should end like five different times. Of course, it’s not all bad because JP has to walk in and play a badass solo because everything he does is so fucking perfect.

/rant

As song by itself it gets a bit long, but I always think of it within he context of The 12 Step Suite. When I do that, it's not that bad. And the solo is one of my favs.

[Trav86]

The thing for me is that I never think of those songs “in the context of the 12 Step Suite”.  Even then, it’s still overlong.

[pg1067]

The thing for me is that I never think of those songs “in the context of the 12 Step Suite”.  Even then, it’s still overlong.

Same.

I like TGP, but it would probably be better if it were a few minutes shorter.

I don't like TDS.

I like Root, but it's not great.

Repentance is the single worst thing DT has recorded.

TSF is fine, but it's no better than the sum of its parts.

That being the case, I've never felt motivated to combine the five songs and listen to them together.

[Scottjf8]

Bringing this thread back from the dead. Hope this is ok.

I absolutely love this album! Currently listening through it and enjoying every minute of it. This was DT's funnest album in my opinion. Don't take it to seriously and you will appreciate it.

It does not really have any bad songs, it just gets funny at points. From the documentary Portnoy made for it, you can tell they all were just having a blast with the music.

THE DARK ETERNAL NIGHT

You misspelled Prophets of War

[Scottjf8]

For the record, "Ministry of Lost Souls" is a top 10 all time DT song for me

[Trav86]

The thing for me is that I never think of those songs “in the context of the 12 Step Suite”.  Even then, it’s still overlong.

Same.

I like TGP, but it would probably be better if it were a few minutes shorter.

I don't like TDS.

I like Root, but it's not great.

Repentance is the single worst thing DT has recorded.

TSF is fine, but it's no better than the sum of its parts.

That being the case, I've never felt motivated to combine the five songs and listen to them together.

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, however…I never really bought in to the whole 12 Step Suite thing. I don’t recall any other band member besides MP even talk about it. When it came time for The Shattered Fortress, it seemed so forced. With a cut and paste arrangement. But I will admit that when they played it live in 2014, it was great.

[The Letter M]

Being in a very DT-mood for the last few weeks, I had gone through their entire catalog at least once, but I found myself coming back to this one during the past week a lot since it was the lead-up to Halloween, and I think SC has the most "spooky" vibe of all their albums given the lyrics are about somewhat Halloween-y kind of things with vampires, spirits, monsters, Dark Masters, etc. It's a very good Halloween-time album!

The thing for me is that I never think of those songs “in the context of the 12 Step Suite”.  Even then, it’s still overlong.

Same.

I like TGP, but it would probably be better if it were a few minutes shorter.

I don't like TDS.

I like Root, but it's not great.

Repentance is the single worst thing DT has recorded.

TSF is fine, but it's no better than the sum of its parts.

That being the case, I've never felt motivated to combine the five songs and listen to them together.

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, however…I never really bought in to the whole 12 Step Suite thing. I don’t recall any other band member besides MP even talk about it. When it came time for The Shattered Fortress, it seemed so forced. With a cut and paste arrangement. But I will admit that when they played it live in 2014, it was great.

When I discovered the band, the 12SS was only 2 songs in, so as the following three releases came out, I was obsessed with hearing how they all would fit together and grew to love and appreciate each song as they came out. I've made a personal edit that puts all five songs together and makes them flow and segue seamlessly into a suite that is exactly 55:51 long with no gaps or silence at all - just nearly 56 minutes of music. In the other thread about favorite "pieces of DT music" I rated the 12SS as one of my favorites, even above epics like ACOS and ITPOE, simply because I've really grown to enjoy it over the years. But I definitely can see why some fans would dislike some, or most of the music in the suite to the point of skipping those tracks on their respective albums. I'm sure the suite got worse and worse with each new album for some fans, and I understand how some might even dislike "Repentance" but I like how different it is from the other four songs and that it develops some musical ideas more while doing something new for the suite, as well as sounding different on the album its from as well.

-Marc.

[hefdaddy42]

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, however…I never really bought in to the whole 12 Step Suite thing. I don’t recall any other band member besides MP even talk about it.

I don't even understand what you mean about that.  What is there to buy into?

[Mr.Mister]

I think this album did something great which was taking a different approach from 8V - meaning: it sounded different and I like that. I think there are some really good songs in the album with both CM and TDEN being made to be played live. I get the idea behind splitting ITPOE into two though I'd prefer it as one piece.

That said the album in in the lower end of my rank: Forsaken is OK but I rarely feel the want to listen to it unless I'm purposely listening to the entire album. POW is among my least preferred songs, it feels too much trying to sound like Muse. TMOLS has some cool parts, and I don't mind the instrumental at all but again not my preferred sound. Repentance is instant skip for me. Even CM is a good song but for me it's mostly for JP's solo and MP's drum work during that same part.

 

[Trav86]

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, however…I never really bought in to the whole 12 Step Suite thing. I don’t recall any other band member besides MP even talk about it.

I don't even understand what you mean about that.  What is there to buy into?

Maybe that’s not the best way to phrase it. What I mean is I’ve never really thought of it as a suite in the same way I do SDOIT or A Mind Beside Itself. I don’t think of the songs of how they fit with the other songs, or care about listening to them back to back. And how they “flow” with each other. Nor do I have any desire to hear them all played together like some people have talked about before.
I gave my opinion on Repentance and The Shattered Fortress earlier. I will say the first three songs are great, but the idea that they go together rarely crosses my mind when listening to them.

Obviously this is my opinion but that’s what I meant.

[Kotowboy]

At first I only liked the first half. Then I grew to enjoy the second half. Now I find the entire second half plodding and boring.

I really enjoy the first 4 tracks though. But over time I barely listen to this album anymore.