The Systematic Chaos Appreciation (and explanation of disappreciation) Thread

[DoctorAction]

I don't dig it and never play it anymore but:

I do sometimes play TDEN, which I think is beefy, goofy metal fun. and notable to me as I really didn't like TOT.

[toro]

The first 4 minutes of the album are among the best thing they have ever done.
It's all downhill after the first song.

I have a (probably unfounded) hatred for two songs on this album (forsaken,tmols) so that puts the album among their worst for me.

[Northern Lion]

Overall, I think this album is pretty good.  I'm not a fan of Repentance, and I don't like that ITPOE is split into two tracks (I stitched mine together using Audacity), although I admit it does work well for the flow of the album.  But other than those two gripes, I think it's pretty good.  And ITPOE is my favorite DT song.  There seems to be a lot of fans that don't really like PoW, but I like it a lot and listen to it often.

[lightningbolt]

I still very much enjoy Systematic Chaos, including the often maligned Forsaken.  It isn't a top tier release, but a solid B to B+ Dream Theater album for me (my top tier DT albums are I&W, Scenes, and Train of Thought). 

It was the first new release after I became a fan and a buddy of mine used to play it all of the time while we played video games.  So, I have some positive association with the album that makes me think of playing Warcraft 3 all night.  Also, the making of documentary is very cool and gave me a different kind of appreciation for the album.

[hefdaddy42]

I know that part of the reasoning for that decision was that they felt the song worked equally well as an opener and a closer, and also that the previous album closed with a 20+minute epic and they didn't want to repeat themselves.

That's not the way I remember it.  Not exactly.

They felt that of the songs they had, the best opening track by far was ITPOE.  They also felt that that the best closing track by far was ITPOE.

So not that it "worked equally well as an opener and a closer."  It's that it was the best option for opening AND ALSO the best option for closing.  So they split it and put what they felt was their best opener in the opening slot and their best closer in the closing spot.

[bosk1]

^Yeah, what Hef said.  And whether we might agree or disagree in hindsight, the band at the time felt that it felt too repetitive and formulaic to have a "mega-epic" close the album for two albums in a row.  And most fans that were talking about it right after the album came out mostly agreed.  Yes, they went back to that formula again one album later for Black Clouds.  But coming right on the heels of 8VM, having ITPOE close the album just felt too similar, and having something so long open the album just felt weird.  And I think you have to factor a few other things into the mix as well:  (1) As far as approximate 20+ minute songs, they were even more rare at the time.  Prior to this, they only had ACOS, Six Degrees, and 8VM.  Aside from ACOS being on an EP, the other two were album closers.  (2) SC also was to be the 4th consecutive album with a 12SS song.  Why is this relevant?  I think the band were already feeling like they were being a bit formulaic as it was with 2 consecutive 12SS songs AND with mega epic closers.  They felt like they needed to break up the formula a bit.  (3) I think MP is/was even more sensitive about appearing repetitive/formulaic than others.  Remember, for example, how sensitive he was about Similitude being a double album and how he felt it might appear if a project he was involved in released a double concept album right after DT released The Astonishing, and how he pushed hard on Neal to make it a single album?  I think this says a lot about his mindset.

So, I think that, while it may not seem like a big deal now in hindsight with so many more albums in between SC and where we are now in 2024, it felt like more of a dilemma back when they were putting together the running order.  I can definitely understand where they were coming from and why it makes sense.

As I've often said (and probably said earlier in this very thread), this is an odd album for me in that I LOVE about 2/3 of it, and don't care at all for the rest.  I have had two different edits of the album over the years where I rearranged things and cut out a few songs.  And the edited versions of SC are probably my most listened to DT albums since SC's release.  My favorite version, trimming all the fat, is:
1.  Constant Motion
2. Forsaken
3.  The Dark Eternal Night
4.  In the Presence of Enemies  (I and II)
Personally, I think this version works REALLY well as a long EP.  I love everything on it, and all the stuff I don't care for as much is gone.

My other version where I reintroduced some of the songs I don't like as much, but feel that their inclusion is helped by a different track order, is:
1.  In the Presence of Enemies (I and II)
2.  Forsaken
3.  Constant Motion
4.  Repentance
5.  The Dark Eternal Night
6.  Ministry (I still don't love it, but it works so much better for me as a closer because you still get that big epic feel to close out the album)
I like this better than the album run.  I don't have to listen to Prophets, and the slight change in running order helps a bit.  But the back half does feel like a bit of a let-down that drags a bit.

[durga2112]

Personally, I think this version works REALLY well as a long EP

In most contexts, something of that length would be considered an album, not an EP.  Hell, it would even fit on a single vinyl LP!

[bosk1]

Yeah, at about 45 minutes, I mean that's a standard Van Halen album.   

[TAC]

And the edited versions of SC are probably my most listened to DT albums since SC's release. 

Awesome!!

[Max Kuehnau]

Yeah, at about 45 minutes, I mean that's a standard Van Halen album.   

one of their longer ones actually, since all the DLR albums (barring ADKOT, which is around 50) are shorter than 40 minutes, around 36 minutes at the most (and then most if not  all the interim albums clearly are longer than 45 though)

[ytserush]

one of their longer ones actually, since all the DLR albums (barring ADKOT, which is around 50) are shorter than 40 minutes, around 36 minutes at the most (and then most if not  all the interim albums clearly are longer than 45 though)

Diver Down is a freaking EP!

[TAC]

Diver Down is a freaking EP!

Definitely.

[Max Kuehnau]

yeah I'd guess so, although they weren't this specific (they always called it their fifth album). It definitely their shortest collections of songs  though (just over 31 minutes), but then again, Change O is around 58 minutes long and DT called it an EP, so that's how strange some definitions seem to be 

[illusionist]

Constant motion is generic metal, Forsaken is a cool track but doesn't give me DT vibes, TMOLS is way too bloated, INPOE i find it rather uninspired for DT epics standards, Repentance is good but too many spoken parts, Prophets of war i can't still to this day understand what was the purpose of it being written, recorded and released, and the only song i think is listenable is TDEN, which has some heavy riffs and is fun to play live.
Overall, i wish this album was never recorded and released by DT.
Beyond terrible.

[fibreoptix]

I'm curious to know what people think of the track ordering on Systematic Chaos - mostly concerning how "In the Presence of Enemies" was split up. I know that part of the reasoning for that decision was that they felt the song worked equally well as an opener and a closer, and also that the previous album closed with a 20+minute epic and they didn't want to repeat themselves. However, I have to respectfully disagree with the band on both of those points. I think the song works FAR better as a closer than as an opener. And as far as repeating themselves - I'm sure that a year or two after Octavarium that felt really important to them, but looking back on it nearly two decades later, does it really matter all that much?

To that end, I actually have a playlist that reorders the album as follows:

1. Constant Motion
2. Forsaken
3. The Dark Eternal Night
4. Repentance
5. Prophets of War
6. The Ministry of Lost Souls
7. In the Presence of Enemies - Part I
8. In the Presence of Enemies - Part II

At first I tried just moving ITPOE.1 to the 7th track, but then the album opens with "Forsaken", which just doesn't work at all. CM has much better energy to open an album, so that's why it also changes its position.

This is more for fun than anything, but like I said, I'm curious to know what others think.

I tried today and it actually works pretty well! Constant Motion is a surprisingly good opener, although I'm not 100% sold on the transition into Forsaken. It's also a shame that the air conditionery sound at the end of TMOLS cuts out before ITPOE 1, but using my imagination, if the band had written things in a way that made this the official track order, I'd be more than happy with it.

I think ITPOE feels a lot more cohesive and strong as one track.

[Cool Chris]

The track listing is fine the way it is. After Forsaken I just have to hit the skip button 4 times and that's it!

[TAC]

The track listing is fine the way it is. After Forsaken I just have to hit the skip button 4 times and that's it!

 

[Northern Lion]

In my post above, I forgot to mention Constant motion.  I'm not a huge fan of that song and usually skip it, that and Repentance.  The rest of the album is 

[wolfking]

When I revisited the album a little while back for the top 100, I loved it a lot more than I used to.  ITPOE jumped so many places this time around.  As a whole epic, it's as good as any of the epics IMO.  I have no real issues with anything on here.  Still don't love Repentance but I'm not really one that skips songs when I listen to albums so on a whole it's a strong album.  POW also has aged pretty well and is a decent tune.

[DragonAttack]

Just discussed SC with a friend a week or so ago. I'm not a metal headbanger, so this wasn't quite in my wheelhouse.  The lyrics for half the songs would have fit much better on an Alice Cooper album, because they sure didn't fit for me.  I also read the progarchives.com reviews, and one writer mentioned how MP's vocals were competing rather than complimenting JLB's. Perfect summation.

My edited old style LP from way back then still is:
Side One
In The Presence Of Enemies, Pt.1
Repentance (ending at 5:44 after the guitar solo)
Constant Motion

Side Two
Prophets Of War
The Ministry Of Lost Souls
(the final 4:08 of ITPOE Pt.2 is an optional reprise)

for when I get an urge to revisit this, which is about every three years or so.

[macneil]

Systematic Chaos has aged favourably for me, I think it's one of those albums if you approach it more as a bit of fun it lands well. It came out after Score, which was such a peak moment for the band that this album feels like the guys blowing off steam.

That said in the context of the discography it's weaker than most of what came before. The lyrics were pretty cheesy, and it felt like the band was trying a bit too hard to be "cool". I do like the songs for the most part though. The Dark Eternal Night is super fun.

Ministry of Lost Souls is a frustrating song for me, sometimes when I listen to it I think it's honestly one of their best ever, other times that jarring shift from the somber first half to the instrumental solo section and the whole vibe change just feels so unnecessary. If they cut or altered that middle 3 or 4 minute section to be not quite so goofy it would be a fantastic song.