The Systematic Chaos Appreciation (and explanation of disappreciation) Thread

[gzarruk]

Very unpopular opinion here, but I like SC more than Octavarium, BC&SL and even TOT. To me, it sounds balanced: It is heavy, melodic, technical, epic, progressive and has great soft moments. It has many amazing riffs and solos by both JP and JR. JLB and JM sound great and MP's vocals weren't as bad as in BC&SL 

[...]

Just my opinion, guys, please don't assasinate me 
Btw, just if anyone wants to know, I don't rank the album that high on my list. It's currently the 8th.

So Octavarium, BC&SL & TOT are all in your bottom 5?

My list is always changing, but this is how I rank them at the moment:

8. SC
9. TOT
10. FII
11. Octavarium
12. BC&SL
13. WDADU

[Shattered Glass]

Was JP listening to a Blue Oyster Cult best of when he wrote the lyrics to this album? (i.e. Dark Eternal Night = Godzilla, Forsaken = I love the night, Ministry of Lost Souls = Don't fear the Reaper)

[bosk1]

Godzilla is definitely a monster track.  But otherwise, I don't see the connection.

[hefdaddy42]

History shows again and again
How nature points up the folly of men

[Scottjf8]

I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress.  It's a fun watch.

I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else. 

[gzarruk]

I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress.  It's a fun watch.

I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else.

To me, ITPOE is one of their best songs ever. It's sad it's so underrated by a lot of fans 

[Herrick]

I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress.  It's a fun watch.

I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else.

I love that making of video. I wish they had one for every album.

[Scottjf8]

I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress.  It's a fun watch.

I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else.

To me, ITPOE is one of their best songs ever. It's sad it's so underrated by a lot of fans 

I kinda wish that they had kept it as one big epic track, instead of splitting it up into 2 parts.  When I wanna listen to this, I do the Chaos in Motion live version.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

This is the only DT album where I changed the original track listing. I start with Forsaken, and have both parts of In The Presence of Enemies as the final track.

Also, ITPOE is still one of my all-time favorite DT tracks.

And I love SC as a whole.

[Cable]

I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress.  It's a fun watch.

I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else.

To me, ITPOE is one of their best songs ever. It's sad it's so underrated by a lot of fans 

I agree with the bolded. The Documentary may be better than the commentary tracks- I miss those.

I may consider ITPOE top 5. TDEN is bottom five, and probably the worst IMO.

[gzarruk]

I love this album, partially because I really dug watching the making of doc, chaos in progress.  It's a fun watch.

I absolutely love ITPoE (all of it) and TDEN more than anything else.

To me, ITPOE is one of their best songs ever. It's sad it's so underrated by a lot of fans 

I kinda wish that they had kept it as one big epic track, instead of splitting it up into 2 parts.  When I wanna listen to this, I do the Chaos in Motion live version.

I made a playlist with both parts, so, if I want to listen to the whole song, I just play it and that's it

[kaos2900]

Listening to this for the first time in a long while and it is easily at the bottom of the DT discography for me. There are some good parts but for the most part it's a big disappointment. Bad production, bad lyrics, bad song structures (too long and repetitive). This is the only DT album with multiple songs that I don't like. Constant Motion and TDEN are fun and though over long, ITPOE has some cool parts and vocal melodies. Repentance and Prophets of War are low points for me. Forsaken and TMOLS are average. This albums oozes MP's authoritative grip on the direction of the band and while this was slightly rectified on BC&SL it's more clear to me now than ever that MP leaving was the best thing for both parties.

[SystematicThought]

Systematic Chaos turned 10 today.

Favorite track for me is still ITPOE Pt 1

[gzarruk]

Systematic Chaos turned 10 today.

Favorite track for me is still ITPOE Pt 1

I count ITPOE 1 and 2 as one song (which it is), so that's my favorite song from the album. Very underrated song imo.

[Dublagent66]

SC has aged well.  Still enjoy it 10 years later.

[jammindude]

Listening to this for the first time in a long while and it is easily at the bottom of the DT discography for me. There are some good parts but for the most part it's a big disappointment. Bad production, bad lyrics, bad song structures (too long and repetitive). This is the only DT album with multiple songs that I don't like. Constant Motion and TDEN are fun and though over long, ITPOE has some cool parts and vocal melodies. Repentance and Prophets of War are low points for me. Forsaken and TMOLS are average. This albums oozes MP's authoritative grip on the direction of the band and while this was slightly rectified on BC&SL it's more clear to me now than ever that MP leaving was the best thing for both parties.

You took the words right out of my mouth. 

The only difference is that I absolutely LOVE TDEN, and I don't care for CM at all.  ("Forevermore...into the night...blistering"  Really???  I think I wrote that once.....in middle school....after I heard my first Saxon album).

Everything else you say about the album is spot on.   Honestly, its the only DT album I tend to purposefully avoid.

[Polarbear]

SC has aged well.  Still enjoy it 10 years later.

I agree.

Systematic Chaos arrived just as i was becoming a big DT fan, and it didn't disappoint.

[bosk1]

Good excuse to listen to this album.  Thanks for bumping this thread!

[Scottjf8]

First time I heard SC was when I started getting into DT last year, and I watched the whole making of doc. And I loved the album...

...then I heard the rest of their back catalog...

And now it's prob bottom 3 for me...  I just hate POW and foreskinsakin..  ministry is good, and ITPOE is awesome. But too many meh moments... even repentance, which is good as a slow breather in the middle of MPs 12 step, on this album it's a snoozer.   I think maybe if it was on BCSL instead, and TSF had been on what became ADTOE, maybe I would have liked it better.

[Dublagent66]

There's no love loss for PoW in my book.  Repentance is just ok but the JP solo barely saves it for me.  The rest of the album is great.  Not sure how putting TSF on ADTOE would make it better.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I want to give a shout out to In the Presence of Enemies. I know... I know... I'm not exactly going out on a limb when I say that, especially considering that the album has other songs that tend to get a lot more hate, but I think that ITPOE gets lost in the shuffle sometimes because of better-known epics like ACOS and 8VM. It's actually a really underrated song.

[Dublagent66]

It is underrated but I don't think splitting it into two tracks as bookends did it any favors either.  In people's minds, it's still two separate tracks and continuity is lost somehow.  IDK, just a theory...

[Evai]

The amount of times you hear DARK MASTER kills it a bit for me, one of the few things I don't like about the album. The other thing is that if you're listening on headphones, the feedback squeal in Prophets Of War right before the last chorus is hard panned to one ear... It hurts 

[gzarruk]

I want to give a shout out to In the Presence of Enemies. I know... I know... I'm not exactly going out on a limb when I say that, especially considering that the album has other songs that tend to get a lot more hate, but I think that ITPOE gets lost in the shuffle sometimes because of better-known epics like ACOS and 8VM. It's actually a really underrated song.

Completely agree.

It is underrated but I don't think splitting it into two tracks as bookends did it any favors either.  In people's minds, it's still two separate tracks and continuity is lost somehow.  IDK, just a theory...

Yeah, things would've been much different if they kept it as one long song, just like they played it on that tour.

[Dublagent66]

The CiM version does help continuity but unfortunately lacks good production.  It's not terrible, but could've been much better.

[MirrorMask]

I don't think the splitting is an issue, maybe the occasional listener finds on YouTube one half of the song, but in the end it's like Six Degrees... a song? a suite? we all know it's that second disc of the album when we talk about Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, just like if we read "In the Presence of Enemies", without the part specified, we know it's the whole song.

I don't find nothing really wrong with the song, the first, slow atmospheric section when the dark master melody comes in is quite brilliant, and the end is bombastic as any. Maybe the intro is too long and the final solo section could have been shorter or memorable, but all in all I find it a quite good and enjoyable epic. And live it was good!

[Dublagent66]

I don't think the splitting is an issue, maybe the occasional listener finds on YouTube one half of the song, but in the end it's like Six Degrees... a song? a suite? we all know it's that second disc of the album when we talk about Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, just like if we read "In the Presence of Enemies", without the part specified, we know it's the whole song.

Not sure why you're comparing it to SDOIT.  That title song is 8 continuous tracks.  ITPOE was split into 2 tracks separate from each other on the album.  The fact that they are one song is irrelevant.  The presentation is the difference.

[BanksD]

Systematic Chaos has really grown on me over the years. After some time away from it and coming back to it a while ago its shot up in my rankings. Its at least better than 3 or 4 other DT albums for me.  It has some elements that aren't present on other DT albums that i really appreciate.

[LCArenas]

SC was good. 8VM shoes were really hard to fill and the album wasn't as good as its predecessor, but it has a lot of strong points. I remember I hated The Ministry of Lost Souls when the album came out, now it's my favorite song off the album.

[SeRoX]

I really like the intense vocal of ITPOE and Repentance. Contrary to fanbase I really enjoy PoW. The rest is meh though. TMOLS could be the most boring song DT ever created to this day.

[Dublagent66]

I really like the intense vocal of ITPOE and Repentance. Contrary to fanbase I really enjoy PoW. The rest is meh though. TMOLS could be the most boring song DT ever created to this day.

  We're waiting for an explanation.

[bosk1]

No explanation needed for that one. 

[Mosh]

TMOLS is easily my least favorite DT song.

[Scottjf8]

Wow, I dig TMOLS...  it's wayyyyyy better than even PoW, not to mention other songs in the catalog (including most of WDADU, Wait for Sleep, Lifting Shadows, You not me, etc etc...)

[Dublagent66]

It makes me think of what JP said 10 years ago in the SC documentary about TMOLS.  "Some people just don't get what's going on there."