Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[Kotowboy]

I just hope that the movies can also be good in their own right. I thought TFA definitely was. Rogue One feel a little short.

Yeah they weren't huge problems for me. As long it doesn't go overboard. 

[Implode]

I thought with TFA it actually fit really well since the story was super simple and a rehash of ANH (sorry Bosk, just my lazy and missing the point opinion). The characters were more than strong enough to keep us interested. All in all, it was a very fun and well executed movie.

R1 on the other hand, didn't really have anything to fall back on. The story was interesting, though very confusing in the beginning. It had a bunch of characters that were pointless, and the main characters were very bland and underdeveloped. So when there were overt wink-wink-nudge-nudge moments, they felt pretty out of place with the tone of the rest of the movie.

[Kotowboy]

Yeah I didn't care that [SPOILER] everyone died [/SPOILER] ...because I didn't care about the characters.

[Orbert]

That was the box they were working in.  I thought the story was interesting enough, but they had to get us invested in characters they we knew were all going to die by the end, and I think they only partially succeeded there.

[Kotowboy]

Especially since one of our "heroes" is shown to be a remorseless murderer right at the outset.

He doesn't really win you back after that...

Daisy Ridley and John Boyega were way more charismatic.

[Orbert]

Yeah, I'm sure that that was meant to give him some depth and let us know that's willing to do whatever it takes, but instead my first impression was "Wow, this guy's a real asshole!"

[Kotowboy]

Then he tries to kill Jyn's Dad because he "worked on" the Death Star against his will ? If I remember rightly. She knows he sabotaged it but he wants to kill him anyway ?  ?

Then him and Jyn become BFFs just because he says " i don't have to explain myself ".

It reminds me of when HITB talked about Star Trek Into Darkness - they say that Kirk and Spock are only friends because they are in the show.

In reality - that Kirk and Spock would hate each other.

[pogoowner]

I was okay with both of those examples. R2 and 3PO being there makes sense, and I think that line is a fun thing. What I did roll my eyes at though was the cantina trouble maker guys appearing on Jeddha. That was just too much.

Yeah, the cantina guys' appearance was a real WTF moment for me, and not in a good way. I rolled my eyes at the forced C3PO line, but I've come to expect that they're going to shove him into every movie somehow (he's one of my least favorite characters, if you couldn't tell).

[Kotowboy]

C3PO is the Jar Jar Binks of the OT.

Sorry not sorry.

[Orbert]

R2-D2 and C-3PO are the two characters in every Star Wars film.  George started that, and it continues.

Seeing them in Rogue One makes sense, since they were there and we know that Leia is going to be shoving a disk into R2-D2 in a few minutes, but the way it was done was just kinda silly.  I would've been fine just seeing them in the background or something.

[Kotowboy]

I bet Anthony Daniels loves that he was the C3PO and Kenny Baker wasn't R2.

[Kotowboy]

So if VIII starts exactly where VII left off - what does everyone think will be the first line ?

Luke : We meet at last. You have done well. My daughter ?

Rey : Here's your bloody sword.

[gmillerdrake]

So if VIII starts exactly where VII left off - what does everyone think will be the first line ?

Luke: "So, the Force is Awake, huh?"

[Adami]

I see your force is as big as mine.

[Kotowboy]

So the wait from Episode 7 til now is the same til Episode 8.

Then it's the Han Solo movie a year after that then Episode 9 then Boba Fett ?

Then who knows what.

[Orbert]

Then the Ewok Adventure reboot

[Kotowboy]

Boss Nass origin story.

Boss Nass : A Star Wars Story : There's always a Bigger Fish.

Coming 2025.

[Zantera]

I really hope they're scrapping the Boba Fett movie. I mean talk about a useless character. Sure, his look is unique and most of us thought he looked cool when we first saw Star Wars, but he was just as pointless in the OT as Captain Phasma was in TFA and I also feel like he's the type of character where the less we know about him, the better he is.

[Kotowboy]

I'm not at all interested in any SW movie beyond 8, 9 just to finish the story.

I won't go and see the Anthology movies at all.

Also : Rogue One : Worldwide:    $615,934,691   

That's pretty impressive after what seemed like a modest start ( compared to TFA ).

[bosk1]

And I haven't seen it yet, so add another $10.

[Samsara]

Count me among those who think rogue 1 is the best sw film outside the original 3.

[Adami]

Then the Ewok Adventure reboot

If we don't get a Michael Bay remake of Caravan of Courage, then there is no justice in this world.

[CrimsonSunrise]

And I haven't seen it yet, so add another $10.

No $21 IMAX?    I thought you Legal Eagles had dinero!   

[jammindude]

I'll also bet that Kylo is the result of JJ looking at what George was trying to do with that monster failure of Anakin and saying "....I bet I could make that work". He succeeded.

Just had to QFT.   This was the first thing I thought when we got to know Kylo Ren.   We can all see how a young "loose cannon" could be lured to the dark side.   But Lucas just focused on the "whiny" side of young rebellion.    For all the lack of emotion in the films, Anakin was so completely "emo" that you didn't even care.   

Kylo OTOH was a much deeper character.   His motivations (while they may still be developing...so we don't know all) are better fleshed out and understood than Anakin's were in 3 films.    I'm not saying he wasn't given motive...just that his motive wasn't given any depth.     The situation was shown....but not really developed.     Not sure I'm explaining this right.... 

[BlackInk]

Then he tries to kill Jyn's Dad because he "worked on" the Death Star against his will ? If I remember rightly. She knows he sabotaged it but he wants to kill him anyway ?  ?

Then him and Jyn become BFFs just because he says " i don't have to explain myself ".

It reminds me of when HITB talked about Star Trek Into Darkness - they say that Kirk and Spock are only friends because they are in the show.

In reality - that Kirk and Spock would hate each other.

Out of all the characters I didn't really care about, Cassian was probably my favorite though. He quite clearly didn't want to kill Galen, but were following orders, and he struggled with it.

[bosk1]

I'll also bet that Kylo is the result of JJ looking at what George was trying to do with that monster failure of Anakin and saying "....I bet I could make that work". He succeeded.

Just had to QFT.   This was the first thing I thought when we got to know Kylo Ren.   We can all see how a young "loose cannon" could be lured to the dark side.   But Lucas just focused on the "whiny" side of young rebellion.    For all the lack of emotion in the films, Anakin was so completely "emo" that you didn't even care.   

Kylo OTOH was a much deeper character.   His motivations (while they may still be developing...so we don't know all) are better fleshed out and understood than Anakin's were in 3 films.    I'm not saying he wasn't given motive...just that his motive wasn't given any depth.     The situation was shown....but not really developed.     Not sure I'm explaining this right.... 

Yeah, I think you are spot on, actually.  Where I initially thought you were going was that Anakin was too emotional, and I would disagree with that.  But as I think you then went on to explain, it isn't really a quantity issue.  It's more that his emotion wasn't given any real foundation that sold it and made it feel believable or legitimate.  And Lucas made so many missteps on the road to Anakin's turning that, by the time we got there, I not only didn't believe it, I didn't care.

That, to me, is the biggest crime of the prequels.  People can complain all they want about Jar Jar, or trade federations, or Grievous, or too much CGI, or whatever.  And that's fine.  Those criticisms are mostly legit.  But I think most of us could overlook and forgive all of that stuff (even Jar Jar!) more easily if Anakin's arc actually made sense and made us actually feel something.

[Kotowboy]

Wasn't Episode I written only a few weeks before shooting began ?

...I know a lot of films have started shooting without a finished script and have been fine...Like JAWS for instance... But it won't work every time.

[faizoff]

I think another reason why Anakin's arc in the prequels wasn't relate-able was due to the shitty ass dialogue, I mean it's a joke now but on listening to it the first time I cringed so hard when Anakin and Padme conversed about sand being coarse, blah blah blah.  I also feel the two actors had zero chemistry  on screen together.

[bosk1]

Well, yeah, exactly.  It was poorly written as a whole, including the dialog.  And it's a shame because the bones of a really good story were there.  Some VERY minor tweaking in the plot and some fixing of the dialog and directing could have taken those three movies to a completely different level.

[Skeever]

I disagree that Kylo Ren's motives are better than Anakin's, but the actor is certainly doing a better job. What are Kylo's motivations, exactly?

As for the prequels, it seems Lucas spent them dancing around the real issues of the galaxy, and so the explanations we got were pretty lame. Who are the Trade Federation? What do they want? What is the state of the Old Republic? Is it salvageable? Or do the separatists - unbeknownst to them, manipulated by Sidius - have some legitimate basis for their war against the Republic? Where do the Jedi Order fit in? Do they try and influence the Republic, or do they just do its bidding? Who is Dooku, and what turned him to the Dark Side? How does Anakin, the main character, feel about all this?

The prequel movies were 3 hours a pop, but Lucas never intended to go into any of the above, so while the arc of the story is pretty interesting in the big picture view, the explanations we get are lame. The Trade Federation are "bad". The Old Republic is good. The Seperatists are evil. Dooku is an evil guy with no motive. The Jedi are 100% complicit in the Republic's war machine and the leaders of the clone army. Anakin is completely apathetic to all of this - just a talented force user who turns to the dark side when his personal live bottoms out.

[bosk1]

Yeah, but none of that is really important.  If you want to know what actually matters, see my post. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

My opinion on the prequels is: I don't dislike them. Every time I've watched them, I've enjoyed them. However, the reason I don't own them or watch them anymore is that, as Bosk mentioned, Anakin's arc doesn't make sense. I would even go a step further and say that it actually takes away from the original trilogy by hurting Darth Vader's character.

[Skeever]

Yeah, but none of that is really important.  If you want to know what actually matters, see my post. 

I agree with what you said, but I think answering some of the questions I mentioned would help given Anakin's emotion more foundation.

This would be my revised narrative for the prequels:

• Obi-Wan discovers Anakin and Tatooine, and immediately begins to train him in the ways of the Jedi.
• Anakin is too old for this training, and has a violent disposition, but OBK trains him anyway because philosophically apathetic people with high force potential are actually the perfect candidates to lead a Jedi Order that exists primarily to help the Republic with its wars.
• The wiser people on the Jedi Council (Yoda) resist Anakin at first, but can't deny Anakin's place on the council once they see his military prowess in action
• Meanwhile, as the war wages on via Palpatine's puppet game, otherwise loyal Jedi begin to question the validity of the Republic and the Jedi Council's role in the conflict
• Dooku, a hardliner who wants to expose corruption in the Republic, is one of the first Jedi to fall and join the seperatists
• Palpatine gets his emergency powers - Yoda begins to see him as a suspect
• Dooku's departure and the emergence of a new Sith Lord paralyses Obi-wan, Yoda, and other wise and generally optimistic Jedi. A conscious decision is made by the Jedi Council to stop supporting the Republic. 
• Palpatine turns to the one hot-headed, philosophically apathetic Jedi still in his ranks - Anakin Skylwaker. Anakin leads an army of clones to ravage Dooku's army and executes him on the spot.
• See how Palpatine has undermined the wishes of the Jedi Coucil, Yoda makes a tough decision and sends Mace to assassinate Palpatine on the spot. Obi-wan is sent to deal with Anakin.
• Mace fails, but Palpatine is badly hurt.
• Obi-Wan succeeds, but not diplomatically. Anakin lashes out at Obi-Wan violently and a duel ensues, one which ends as it does in RotS.
• By this time, Yoda has failed to deal with wounded Palpatine himself, and the remaining Jedi are public enemy no. 1
• Obi-Wan, believing Anakin to be dead, takes his children and flees.
• Sidius rescues the fallen Anakin, and easily persuades him to become a Sith and help smoke out the rest of the Jedi.

The problem with the prequels, imo, is that Anakin's motives are rooted completely outside the galactic situation. His motived to save Padme can never evolve into his motive to be a heartless warlord for decades afterwards.

[Implode]

Yeah, I agree with bosk too. There's a good story somewhere in there, but somehow George found a way to make it baffling and boring.

[pogoowner]

Yeah, but none of that is really important.  If you want to know what actually matters, see my post. 

I agree with what you said, but I think answering some of the questions I mentioned would help given Anakin's emotion more foundation.

This would be my revised narrative for the prequels:

• Obi-Wan discovers Anakin and Tatooine, and immediately begins to train him in the ways of the Jedi.
• Anakin is too old for this training, and has a violent disposition, but OBK trains him anyway because philosophically apathetic people with high force potential are actually the perfect candidates to lead a Jedi Order that exists primarily to help the Republic with its wars.
• The wiser people on the Jedi Council (Yoda) resist Anakin at first, but can't deny Anakin's place on the council once they see his military prowess in action
• Meanwhile, as the war wages on via Palpatine's puppet game, otherwise loyal Jedi begin to question the validity of the Republic and the Jedi Council's role in the conflict
• Dooku, a hardliner who wants to expose corruption in the Republic, is one of the first Jedi to fall and join the seperatists
• Palpatine gets his emergency powers - Yoda begins to see him as a suspect
• Dooku's departure and the emergence of a new Sith Lord paralyses Obi-wan, Yoda, and other wise and generally optimistic Jedi. A conscious decision is made by the Jedi Council to stop supporting the Republic. 
• Palpatine turns to the one hot-headed, philosophically apathetic Jedi still in his ranks - Anakin Skylwaker. Anakin leads an army of clones to ravage Dooku's army and executes him on the spot.
• See how Palpatine has undermined the wishes of the Jedi Coucil, Yoda makes a tough decision and sends Mace to assassinate Palpatine on the spot. Obi-wan is sent to deal with Anakin.
• Mace fails, but Palpatine is badly hurt.
• Obi-Wan succeeds, but not diplomatically. Anakin lashes out at Obi-Wan violently and a duel ensues, one which ends as it does in RotS.
• By this time, Yoda has failed to deal with wounded Palpatine himself, and the remaining Jedi are public enemy no. 1
• Obi-Wan, believing Anakin to be dead, takes his children and flees.
• Sidius rescues the fallen Anakin, and easily persuades him to become a Sith and help smoke out the rest of the Jedi.

The problem with the prequels, imo, is that Anakin's motives are rooted completely outside the galactic situation. His motived to save Padme can never evolve into his motive to be a heartless warlord for decades afterwards.

This would be a vast improvement.