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Offline Ħ

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2011, 04:22:15 PM »
Guys guys---

P. God is male
P2. God is perfect
2. God loves everybody
3. God loves males
C. God is homosexual
C2. homosexuals are perfect
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Offline sonatafanica

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2011, 04:31:42 PM »
Guys guys---

P. God is male
P2. God is perfect
2. God loves everybody
3. God loves males
C. God is homosexual
C2. homosexuals are perfect

No wonder god wanted women to be subjugated, he was just jealous!

"So Adam, I bet you're kind of lonely down there"

"Yeah, it would be awesome if you would give me something to stick this weird thing on my pelvis into. It's just kind of flopping around and being useless."

"Oh I think I know just where you can put that--"

"Hey how about you make another being for me to put it into, also they should have boobs"

"MOTHERFUCKER I'LL BREAK YOUR RIB"

"OW, wh- ...hey, thanks! Now we can have babies and then our children can fuck each other and have babi....wait"

"Yeah I know, the whole story's full of holes. But what're ya gonna do."

"Also god, she just made me eat an apple. You know, one of the ones you said not to eat. But you're forgiving and everything, right?"

"AHAHAHA THAT BITCH AIN'T SO GREAT NOW, IS SHE

GUESS WHAT, MOTHERFUCKER

ETERNAL DAMNATION FOR ALL 'YALLS


SUCK IT"
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 04:37:10 PM by sonatafanica »

Offline TheVoxyn

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2011, 06:22:21 PM »
God wrote/dictated the bible? That's the first time I have heard of that theory. Bit weird if you ask me.

Offline Ravenheart

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2011, 06:49:13 PM »
it's right alongside lying and stealing.

Anyone who seriously thinks that being gay, or performing gay acts is "right alongside lying and stealing" is not a person worthy of any respect.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2011, 07:18:39 PM »
What's sad is people are totally blowing what Fiery Winds out of proportion. Fiery Winds, if I got him right, was saying that all sins are equal in God's eyes, and the amount of attention the churches pay on to attacking homosexuals is unwarranted.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2011, 07:27:22 PM »
What's sad is people are totally blowing what Fiery Winds out of proportion. Fiery Winds, if I got him right, was saying that all sins are equal in God's eyes, and the amount of attention the churches pay on to attacking homosexuals is unwarranted.
But I think the notion that some biological trait like homosexuality is considered a sin is what people are angry about.  If any poster was to imply that being black, or a twin, or infertile, etc. was a sin, they would be criticized by everybody.  And that's exactly what it is in my opinion.  It's prejudice based on biology, and to me it's not much different than other prejudices, regardless of its justification.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2011, 07:28:53 PM »
Being black, a twin, or infertile has no bearing on relationship preferences innately.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2011, 07:31:08 PM »
Well, I don't think being 'gay' is a sin at the end of the day. Nor do I think acting on it is, either, especially in a committed relationship.

All I'm saying is "let he without sin throw the first stone." People opposed to homosexuality should realize that even if they're right and God doesn't like it, they're just as bad-off if they've ever fapped.

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2011, 07:41:26 PM »
These threads never seem to stay on topic. :(
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2011, 08:33:15 PM »
Being black, a twin, or infertile has no bearing on relationship preferences innately.
Which brings us right back to the central question of whether or not it's a choice, or a preference as you just put it, or something that we're wired for.  Whether or not the Bible has anything meaningful to say on the subject or is just another bit of contradictory, hateful nonsense kinda rides on that.  The thing that I can't get past, and what people on your side seem to overlook,  is that for us straight folk being straight isn't a choice.  I don't know about you, but I couldn't make a decision to be a homo as I find the whole thing fantastically repulsive*.  How 'bout you?  If it weren't for that whole Leviticus thing, could you up and decide to fuck another guy? 

Are there any straight people in here who "choose" to be attracted to women but could even consider going the other way?  It seems pretty silly for us to believe that we're absolutely straight, but that homosexuals are just acting on a whim.



*Though I have no problem whatsoever with those who dig that sort of thing.  To each their own. 
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Offline Quadrochosis

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2011, 10:24:46 PM »
I'm sorry but this notion that all sins are equal is just silly. What kind of God would would make such a ridiculous decision like that?

Killing 6 million Jews in the Holocaust = Punching someone in the gut.

Yup.
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Online Adami

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2011, 10:27:19 PM »
I'm sorry but this notion that all sins are equal is just silly. What kind of God would would make such a ridiculous decision like that?

Killing 6 million Jews in the Holocaust = Punching someone in the gut.

Yup.

I think it means that all sins get the same punishment. And it's a terrible enough punishment that it doesn't lighten to the load of the bad ones, but instead makes the lesser ones more concerning.


I think.
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Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2011, 10:37:07 PM »
I'm sorry but this notion that all sins are equal is just silly. What kind of God would would make such a ridiculous decision like that?

Killing 6 million Jews in the Holocaust = Punching someone in the gut.

Yup.
I think it means that all sins get the same punishment. And it's a terrible enough punishment that it doesn't lighten to the load of the bad ones, but instead makes the lesser ones more concerning.

I think.
I think of it more like this: any sin one could commit first and foremost involves disobedience of God, which is the highest error one could make anyway.  Therefore, all sins are of the utmost seriousness.  Their consequences, however, do of course differ.  Killing someone has a more lasting and severe consequence than simply punching someone, but each has its root in the disobedience of God.

Offline Quadrochosis

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2011, 10:45:00 PM »
That makes even less sense, but OK.

Threads like these are great reminders as to why I am not religious.

You gotta love when religions claim to be all about God and love and peace and shit but then go and promote bigotry.
space cadet, pull out.
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Offline j

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2011, 10:50:03 PM »
I think of it more like this: any sin one could commit first and foremost involves disobedience of God, which is the highest error one could make anyway.  Therefore, all sins are of the utmost seriousness.  Their consequences, however, do of course differ.  Killing someone has a more lasting and severe consequence than simply punching someone, but each has its root in the disobedience of God.

^That's a good explanation, and more or less the one I adhered to as a Christian.  I definitely wouldn't have said that "all sins are equal" by any stretch though, I think that's pretty clear.

As for homosexuality, it's often written off as another instance of Christians being told to control their urges, fight temptation, etc, similar to more general, universal commands about sexuality.  Except the difference is that there is no morally-sound alternative for a guy who's only into dudes.  He can't get married or otherwise "righteously" relieve those urges.  Ever.  And that over-repression may very well be linked to health problems, both mental and physical.

I've also heard it explained away in a "well, we each have our cross to bear" sort of fashion.  Which isn't a nice answer, but it makes more sense in the context of Christian thought than a lot of other stuff that is resorted to.

-J

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2011, 10:59:05 PM »
You gotta love when religions claim to be all about God and love and peace and shit but then go and promote bigotry.
That's a big blanket statement to imply that everyone in this thread, or at least everyone supporting anything close to the traditional Christian teaching on the question of homosexuality, is "promoting bigotry."  It's a little more complex than that.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2011, 11:18:00 PM »
I'm sorry but this notion that all sins are equal is just silly. What kind of God would would make such a ridiculous decision like that?

Killing 6 million Jews in the Holocaust = Punching someone in the gut.

Yup.
I think it means that all sins get the same punishment. And it's a terrible enough punishment that it doesn't lighten to the load of the bad ones, but instead makes the lesser ones more concerning.

I think.
I think of it more like this: any sin one could commit first and foremost involves disobedience of God, which is the highest error one could make anyway.  Therefore, all sins are of the utmost seriousness.  Their consequences, however, do of course differ.  Killing someone has a more lasting and severe consequence than simply punching someone, but each has its root in the disobedience of God.

well said

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2011, 05:27:10 AM »
The people who wrote the Biblical texts speaking against homosexuality were homophobes.
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Offline Quadrochosis

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2011, 06:03:00 AM »
You gotta love when religions claim to be all about God and love and peace and shit but then go and promote bigotry.
That's a big blanket statement to imply that everyone in this thread, or at least everyone supporting anything close to the traditional Christian teaching on the question of homosexuality, is "promoting bigotry."  It's a little more complex than that.

Not an implication. If you think that homosexuality is a "sin", or that it's wrong in any fashion, you're a bigot.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2011, 06:29:14 AM »
The people who wrote the Biblical texts speaking against homosexuality were homophobes.
Define "homophobe"

You gotta love when religions claim to be all about God and love and peace and shit but then go and promote bigotry.
That's a big blanket statement to imply that everyone in this thread, or at least everyone supporting anything close to the traditional Christian teaching on the question of homosexuality, is "promoting bigotry."  It's a little more complex than that.

Not an implication. If you think that homosexuality is a "sin", or that it's wrong in any fashion, you're a bigot.
Define "bigot"
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2011, 07:43:39 AM »
You gotta love when religions claim to be all about God and love and peace and shit but then go and promote bigotry.
That's a big blanket statement to imply that everyone in this thread, or at least everyone supporting anything close to the traditional Christian teaching on the question of homosexuality, is "promoting bigotry."  It's a little more complex than that.

Not an implication. If you think that homosexuality is a "sin", or that it's wrong in any fashion, you're a bigot.
That's not going to serve the discussion very well, if, before even hearing the other person's side, you've already declared them a bigot.

What if I personally believe homosexual acts to be sinful, yet support their right to marry, have equal work rights, etc. based on what I think freedom under the law in America mandates?  Am I therefore a bigot?  I think most gay people I know would be fairly happy with me if I supported all of their legal rights under the principle of freedom, even if I felt like their actions were still ethically wrong.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 07:56:08 AM by contest_sanity »

Offline reo73

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2011, 08:10:02 AM »
You gotta love when religions claim to be all about God and love and peace and shit but then go and promote bigotry.
That's a big blanket statement to imply that everyone in this thread, or at least everyone supporting anything close to the traditional Christian teaching on the question of homosexuality, is "promoting bigotry."  It's a little more complex than that.

Not an implication. If you think that homosexuality is a "sin", or that it's wrong in any fashion, you're a bigot.

I guess I'm a bigot, bummer!

Offline Tick

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2011, 08:10:41 AM »
The bible calls it an abomination, plain and simple. The question is, is the bible relevant to you or not? I have had quite a few homosexual friends through the years, and family members who are gay. I am not their judge and jury and I treat them with respect and dignity regardless of my personal feelings about being gay.
I'm not gay so its unfair for me to try and pass judgment on a gay person. It can't be an easy path. If it were a choice, why would anyone sign up for what they deal with?
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2011, 08:18:33 AM »
That's why I figure it's not a choice.  Something in the way their brains are wired makes them attracted to members of the same sex.  Therefore God made them that way.  Who are we to declare anything He made to be an abomination?  This always takes me back to my position that The Bible may be inspired by God, but He didn't literally dictate it.

He did write The Ten Commandments, and most everything we recognize as wrong draws from there.  Stealing, murdering, cheating on your wife, etc.  He was pretty clear about that.  I don't see how homosex can be related to any of the Commandments.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2011, 08:24:10 AM »
You gotta love when religions claim to be all about God and love and peace and shit but then go and promote bigotry.
That's a big blanket statement to imply that everyone in this thread, or at least everyone supporting anything close to the traditional Christian teaching on the question of homosexuality, is "promoting bigotry."  It's a little more complex than that.

Not an implication. If you think that homosexuality is a "sin", or that it's wrong in any fashion, you're a bigot.

I've warned people time and again about throwing around labels like "bigot" simply because you disagree with someone's argument.  That has always been and will always be a personal attack.  Namecalling does nothing to argue your point and ultimely only serves to earn you a ticket out of here.  See you in a week.
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Offline reo73

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2011, 08:51:47 AM »
I think there is a big misconception about the term "sin" in regards to the homosexual debate.  The Christian right has not done anything to help the cause because they promote a kind of "Church Lady" attitude towards homosexuality that would suggest "if you engage in homosexual sin you will burn in hell."  This is completely opposite of anything Christ taught.  The real Gospel message is that WE ALL SIN and God's GRACE is big enough to make us righteous.  Homosexuality is no different.  No different than anyone who is married to a previously divorced person for which the Bible also calls a sin.  We continually live in a state of sin which is why God's grace is such an amazing thing.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2011, 09:11:17 AM »
Quad could have worded that better. A "bigot" is someone defined by their prejudice, and not just anyone who has some kind of latent, slightly backwards ideas about social standards which rarely spill over into real-life behavior. Some people who don't like gays are biggots, but I'd warrant most aren't.  Most, I'd argue, are carrying some kind of baggage left over from muddled traditions and religious doctrines--- just like most people living on this planet-- and probably won't say a word about homosexuality unless you actually pry answers about it from them.

But honestly, I predict in no more than 50 years Quad's opinion-- that people against homosexuality are "bigots"-- will be completely in-step with mainstream society's. I'll be really surprised if it isn't, at any rate.  And I'm pretty interested to see how churches adapt to that.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2011, 09:22:03 AM »
Reo, I think I understand what you are saying, but the way you are saying it implies some things that are not correct.

As I think you are suggesting, all sin is abhorrent in God's eyes, whether we from our limited and flawed wordly perspective mistakenly classify them as "big sins" or "little sins."  All sin produces one result:  death.  (Rom 6:23)  Take a look at some lists of things that are sinful, according to the Bible:

Gal 5:19-21:  "19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."  Yeah, okay.  Murder?  I get that.  Adultery?  Makes sense.  But drunkenness?  Fornication?  Yeah, those are thrown in the mix as well.

How about another list?  Rom 1:28-32:  "28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."  Whoa!  Wait?  Disobedience to parents is lumped in there with murder?  Yup.

TOX asked a simple question at the beginning of the thread:  what is the Biblical stance on homosexuality?  The answer, as has been mentioned, is that practicing homosexuality is sin, just like practicing any other practice forbidden by God is sin.  That answer is simple.  

It's interesting though to me that these threads always go off on tangents of moral outrage, usually about people singling out this particular sin, or about treating it as somehow worse than others.  As many in the thread have pointed out, in one sense, sin is sin.  Notice the other things that are in these lists (and homosexuality, as has been discussed in past threads, is explicitly covered in Romans 1 just before the other stuff I quoted, as well as in other places).  They are all sin.

As I think Reo was trying to say next, there's "the other side of the story."  I go back to one of my favorite Bible passages, which I alluded to a couple of paragraphs ago, Romans 6:23, which says that "the wages of sin is death."  Now for the second half of the verse:  "but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."  Yes, God's grace can cover any sin--if we are in Christ and repent of it.  I don't think Reo was trying to imply that one can continue practicing sin and expect grace to cover it, but I mention it because there were some things in the post that implied it.  The Bible is also clear that we canNOT continue sinning and expect God's grace to cover our sin.  (e.g. Rom 2:2; Rom 6:1-14; 1 John 2:3-5; James 2; etc.)

Anyhow, hopefully that was somewhat helpful and not simply more confusing.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 10:00:47 AM by bösk1 »
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2011, 09:29:03 AM »
It's interesting though to me that these threads always go off on tangents of moral outrage, usually about people singling out this particular sin, or about treating it as somehow worse than others.  As many in the thread have pointed out, in one sense, sin is sin.  Notice the other things that are in these lists (and homosexuality, as has been discussed in past threads, is explicitly covered in Romans 1 just before the other stuff I quoted, as well as in other places).  They are all sin.

Well, ToX asked because he was genuinely curious how the Bible could condemn people for something they can't-- or shouldn't have to-- control.

A literalistic approach to the Bible is great, but other people chime in with different ideas because (just like we see in the endless Constitution threads) there's ways of looking at laws-- especially old ones-- without suffocating them in mason jars first.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2011, 09:34:02 AM »
Quad could have worded that better. A "bigot" is someone defined by their prejudice, and not just anyone who has some kind of latent, slightly backwards ideas about social standards which rarely spill over into real-life behavior. Some people who don't like gays are biggots, but I'd warrant most aren't.  Most, I'd argue, are carrying some kind of baggage left over from muddled traditions and religious doctrines--- just like most people living on this planet-- and probably won't say a word about homosexuality unless you actually pry answers about it from them.  

Very good post, PC.  I agree 100%.

But honestly, I predict in no more than 50 years Quad's opinion-- that people against homosexuality are "bigots"-- will be completely in-step with mainstream society's. I'll be really surprised if it isn't, at any rate.  And I'm pretty interested to see how churches adapt to that.

Eh, maybe and maybe not.  Christ's teachings (and even God's laws pre-Christianity, for that matter) have always rubbed people the wrong way for one reason or another.  There is example after example after example.  Prior to Christianity, Herod beheaded John the baptist for telling him he was living an immoral life in an adulterous lifestyle.  The jewish leaders killed Jesus because he was rocking their system of belief and authority structure.  Those same Jewish leaders later killed Stephen (Acts 7).  Nero began feeding Christians to animals and burning them alive for public entertainment.  And on and on and on.  People tend to get pissed off when you tell them something they like is immoral.  When threatened, there are two possible results:  (1) back down and keep quiet; or (2) keep speaking the truth and face the consequences, whatever those are.  Some churches have chosen and will chose the former path.  Others will choose the latter.  That's the way it has been and the way it will always be.  I note that there are countless passages of Scripture, especially in the NT, discussing various forms of persection, and encouraging and/or warning Christians to stay the course.  I note also that Revelation 21:8 mentions that the "cowardly" who do not do so are also to meet their fate in the lake of fire with other sinners.  Scary thought.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2011, 09:36:37 AM »
The people who wrote the Biblical texts speaking against homosexuality were homophobes.
Define "homophobe"
You don't know what "homophobe" means?  I'm not suggesting any definition other than the standard dictionary definition.
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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2011, 09:53:33 AM »
With newer generations being more accepting and understanding than each previous, I don't doubt that PC's 50 years prediction will come true. And quite honestly it's embarrassing to live in a society that hasn't accepted homosexuality for what it actually is.

And I assume Quad was just disgusted to see that several people in this thread perceive homosexuality to be wrong. It's been said that people think it's a sin but otherwise they're o.k. with it. You may be all for gay rights, but as long as you believe it's immoral and wrong, well, that's not too far from bigotry.


God's grace can cover any sin--if we are in Chris

o_o

Offline bosk1

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2011, 10:02:57 AM »
And quite honestly it's embarrassing to live in a society that hasn't accepted homosexuality for what it actually is.

Agreed 100%.

...as long as you believe it's immoral and wrong, well, that's not too far from bigotry.

Actually, it's not even in the same zip code as bigotry.

God's grace can cover any sin--if we are in Chris

o_o

:rollin  In context, that has got to be one of the funniest typos ever.
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Offline ZBomber

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2011, 10:08:11 AM »
...as long as you believe it's immoral and wrong, well, that's not too far from bigotry.

Actually, it's not even in the same zip code as bigotry.

It is if you consider yourself a moral and just person and look down upon people who are homosexual.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Question About the Bible and Homosexuality
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2011, 10:18:19 AM »
I find it laughable that the most powerful being in all existence care who I have sex with or/and love.