Author Topic: The Israel Discussion Thread  (Read 77421 times)

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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #490 on: November 10, 2011, 05:12:11 PM »
I wonder what would happen with the US-Israel relationship if the money/contribution factor got cut out of lobbying  ::)  I can see the military aid go poof real fast.
Nah.  Florida's still too important a swing state.
:huh:
What I meant was that AIPAC would loose considerable influence on politicians from both parties. The only Americans that care about the US-Israel friends-with-benefits gig are Evangelicals and Jews.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #491 on: November 10, 2011, 07:03:18 PM »
That's sad. Israel is not a bad country. Yes, their policy towards the Palestinians is terrible but that's not worth vilifying an entire country.

I wonder what would happen with the US-Israel relationship if the money/contribution factor got cut out of lobbying  ::)  I can see the military aid go poof real fast.
Nah.  Florida's still too important a swing state.


I would say the American right's support for Israel is pretty blind and unswerving, but I don't think you can say that about the nation as a whole, let alone our government. I mean just look at the Obama-Netanyahu relationship, certainly not the closest of friends.
Politics are based on practicality, not friendship.  Whether or not they like each other has no bearing whatsoever on foreign policy. 

I should probably post the rest of my paper to show why they don't like each other and why it does have a bearing on their respective foreign policies.

Also it's really hard to support/back proponents of the peace process on the left wing when their rhetoric concerning Israel is so venomous. It's like I'm being shot at by both sides.

And as a second "also," let's try to separate the term Zionist from the hawkish Messianic Zionists who are building all the settlements and whatnot. There are also a lot of Zionists out there, like myself, who believe in and badly want peaceful co-existence. I'm a Zionist in the sense that I believe Israel has a right to exist and should exist, that Jews as a nation and not as a religion have a right to call Israel a Jewish nation (once again making the distinction that it is a state for the Jews as a people, not as religious adherents), and that Israel is important because its continuing to exist will allow the emergence of what it means to be a modern Jew.

I don't believe Israel is infallible or that the cause is totally righteous, but I do believe the state has a right to exist in peace alongside Palestine (and basically that they should be able to expect Palestine to maintain peaceful relations, and rein in those who try to break the peace), just as Palestine is entitled to recognition of its legitimate statehood and peace alongside Israel (and expect that Israel will not encroach on their territory or conduct military operations).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 07:13:23 PM by Super Dude »
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Offline livehard

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #492 on: November 10, 2011, 08:24:27 PM »
Then I could totally understand you wanting to use your own private property or personally fighting for the Israeli state.  But I dont understand why politicans should force me or any other citizen to give money to Israel while also risking (albeit a small probability) death through retaliation by terrorists.

Nobody helped the Irish out when they were fighting the British, or the other countless cases where people fought over territory.  We shouldn't have gotten involved in this after WWII and its my opinion its high time to get out of there and let them sort it out for themselves.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #493 on: November 10, 2011, 08:42:14 PM »
Did you even read the quotes I pulled from my research? Israel is one of America's best intelligence and military tech partners in the world (and military training too), and with the largest solar and electric car initiatives in the world, provides a great avenue to a cheap transition away from oil (meaning fewer reasons to be in the Middle East in the first place).

I wish Adami would come back. He knew a lot more than I do.

Also, I'm not saying America is or should be forced to do anything, but as leader of the free world people do expect America to do something.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #494 on: November 13, 2011, 06:15:31 AM »
I never thought I'd say this, but goddammit Jews:

https://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-new-israel-in-the-making-1.395241

The good news is Jews in Israel and Diaspora alike are waking up to how ridiculous the Israeli right is. Hopefully AIPAC will find some way to advocate for the left and influence Israeli politics in that way.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #495 on: November 13, 2011, 08:37:23 AM »
Hopefully AIPAC will find some way to advocate for the left and influence Israeli politics in that way.

AIPAC??? Pretty sure that's the last thing AIPAC would want to do. JStreet!!

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #496 on: November 13, 2011, 08:38:40 AM »
We'll see with JStreet. I don't know the full picture with them, and they're still pretty small anyway. Not to mention my own political inclinations lie with neither them totally nor AIPAC, but somewhere in between.
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Online El Barto

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #497 on: February 09, 2012, 09:01:09 AM »
https://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=257168

Quote
US officials say the assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists have been carried out by an Iranian opposition group with logistical and financial support from the Mossad, NBC News reported Thursday.

The report was based on a testimony by one of Iranian Ayotollah Ali Khamenei's senior advisers who detailed the intimate relationship between Israel and the opposition group MEK, which "two senior US officials" confirmed as accurate.

Khamenei's aide, Mohammad Javad Larijani, was quoted by NBC as saying "They (Israelis) are paying … the Mujahedin. Some of their (MEK) agents … (are) providing Israel with information.  And they recruit and also manage logistical support.”

Larijani explained that because Israel does not have "direct access" into Iran, the Mossad works with the Iranian dissident group, which operates in Iran and also has agents in Iraq.

One of the two senior US officials that confirmed the Iranian accusations regarding Israel's close relationship with MEK said that all the "inclinations" in Larijani's remarks were "correct."

This obviously isn't a surprise to anyone with a clue.  I just like pointing out the hypocrisy of all of this terrorism nonsense.  We all support it and we all like it,  as long as it's for a cause we like.  The only difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is who's side you're on. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #498 on: February 09, 2012, 05:10:32 PM »
I made that exact same observation here sometime ago in not-as-good English.
There was some other not-terrorism news I dunno of anyone noticed but this was big for a couple of days two weeks ago for the very limited mention it got, compared to usual reaction the press would have made out of it.
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Online Adami

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #499 on: February 09, 2012, 05:13:55 PM »
I'm not entirely sure a random guy in Atlanta Georgia represents much of the state of Israel.



As to El Barto's point, the second I heard about that assassination I knew it was Israel. I'm pretty sure I facepalmed for a good 5 minutes following it. I love my country, always will, but I am 100% against the entire governing body and really think Israel needs a revolution....now.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #500 on: February 09, 2012, 05:19:42 PM »
I'm not entirely sure a random guy in Atlanta Georgia represents much of the state of Israel.



As to El Barto's point, the second I heard about that assassination I knew it was Israel. I'm pretty sure I facepalmed for a good 5 minutes following it. I love my country, always will, but I am 100% against the entire governing body and really think Israel needs a revolution....now.

Pretty much this. If Israel and America could simultaneously overcome (or at least come to some sort of compromise with) the political grip of their respective right-wing elements, all would be right with the world imo.
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Offline emindead

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #501 on: February 09, 2012, 06:41:40 PM »
I'm not entirely sure a random guy in Atlanta Georgia represents much of the state of Israel.



As to El Barto's point, the second I heard about that assassination I knew it was Israel. I'm pretty sure I facepalmed for a good 5 minutes following it. I love my country, always will, but I am 100% against the entire governing body and really think Israel needs a revolution....now.
Adami, please stay. We need more Colombian and Zionist bonding. Together we could rule the world.













Also, I'm not saying America is or should be forced to do anything, but as leader of the free world people do expect America to do something.
Oh my God.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #502 on: February 09, 2012, 06:46:10 PM »
I never said that America should (or shouldn't, because I personally don't know where I stand) get involved, only that the international community usually expects we will or ought to.
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Online Adami

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #503 on: February 09, 2012, 07:00:11 PM »
To be honest I am not sure what can really be discussed in this thread. The people who hate Israel will complain, while the rest of us will simply say that the government sucks. In fact, I'm pretty sure no one likes the current government outside of the current government.

It's sad that the only democracy in the middle east has decided to ignore the will of the people.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #504 on: February 09, 2012, 07:32:48 PM »
True, although to be fair, numerous Western democracies are facing the same problem today, US being no exception.

But yeah, this is no different from the Global Warming/Climate Change thread: just a push/pull between skeptics and environmentalists.

That said, let's discuss this article I found: https://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-new-peace-is-needed-1.411838

"The old peace is dead, a new, realistic peace is needed." Too bad the author doesn't give any suggestions as to how this can be done.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #505 on: February 09, 2012, 10:35:49 PM »
Power balance, peer-to-peer talks. That's new and just for a change.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #506 on: May 02, 2012, 06:15:56 PM »
A great post from our very own Adami:

Anyway, so I've had some fantasies recently about moving back to Israel (actually pretty realistic) and trying to start some kind of pro-unity thing against the government (not as realistic). I have the image of covering Tel Aviv or Haifa in posters saying "What happened to our country?"

Superdude, you want in?


Also, covering Jerusalem in ירושלים של זהב לא של דם would be pretty awesome.

I like the "What happened to our country?" bit, especially considering early Zionists actually would've emphasized peace and coexistence (as hard as that may be to believe).
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Offline Odysseus

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #507 on: May 05, 2012, 06:24:56 AM »
Nobody helped the Irish out when they were fighting the British...

USA via NORAID?  https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1563119.stm

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #508 on: May 07, 2012, 08:59:28 AM »
Seems we're having a little domestic trouble:

https://www.haaretz.com/news/national/netanyahu-cabinet-agrees-israeli-elections-to-be-held-september-4-1.428672

Hopefully this provides an opportunity to shake things up, maybe get Livni that seat finally.
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Online Adami

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #509 on: May 07, 2012, 09:02:35 AM »
Seems we're having a little domestic trouble:

https://www.haaretz.com/news/national/netanyahu-cabinet-agrees-israeli-elections-to-be-held-september-4-1.428672

Hopefully this provides an opportunity to shake things up, maybe get Livni that seat finally.


Aww poor idealistic Super Dude. I feel for you. No, it's not meant to shake things up. They're being held in September, because Bibi knows he'll win that early. It's a ploy to stay in power, nothing more. And didn't Livni resign from K'neset?
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #510 on: May 07, 2012, 09:04:15 AM »
Well this Livni business is news to me. And yes, that does suck. Adami, I think we need to start designing those posters.
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Online Adami

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #511 on: May 07, 2012, 09:05:37 AM »
Well this Livni business is news to me. And yes, that does suck. Adami, I think we need to start designing those posters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17908446
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #512 on: May 07, 2012, 09:15:50 AM »
Well, at least now the idea is getting out that the problem is the ultra-Orthodox, not necessarily all of Israel.
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Online Adami

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #513 on: May 07, 2012, 09:18:19 AM »
Well, at least now the idea is getting out that the problem is the ultra-Orthodox, not necessarily all of Israel.

We need an island to send them to.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #514 on: May 07, 2012, 09:26:18 AM »
Could send 'em to the Aelutians, Alaskans will love 'em.

On a more serious note, this absolutely flabbergasts me: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/it-is-high-time-to-close-israel-s-rabbinical-courts-1.428611
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Online Adami

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #515 on: May 07, 2012, 09:37:10 AM »
Could send 'em to the Aelutians, Alaskans will love 'em.

On a more serious note, this absolutely flabbergasts me: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/it-is-high-time-to-close-israel-s-rabbinical-courts-1.428611

The law that exempts the ultra-orthodox from doing....anything, isn't going anywhere. It will be brought up, and then used as a means to rally those votes for Bibi who will immediately make sure that it stands strong.

I'm more concerned about Israel being a dictatorship. Banning protesters, no longer punishing soldiers who break the law, making grossly illegal rulings regarding the settlements and now completely ignoring the dying Palestinian hunger strikers who's only complain is that they're being held without charge.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #516 on: May 07, 2012, 09:42:52 AM »
Yeeep, I love Israel and all but it's getting harder and harder to defend them. I'm just hoping this will be a South Korea moment and at some point the spontaneous strike movements will start up.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #517 on: May 14, 2012, 10:28:47 AM »
The issue of the 1800 Palestinian prisoners on hunger strike is about to be resolved I guess. Source and
source 2
Holy mighty complete fuckin black out in Western media btw Batman, this is the biggest thing in the middle east right now and have been for a week, almost overshadowing the Egyptian presidential race. Some of these people have been on the hunger strike for 74 days.
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Online Adami

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #518 on: May 14, 2012, 10:30:44 AM »
The issue of the 1800 Palestinian prisoners on hunger strike is about to be resolved I guess. Source and
source 2
Holy mighty complete fuckin black out in Western media btw Batman, this is the biggest thing in the middle east right now and have been for a week, almost overshadowing the Egyptian presidential race. Some of these people have been on the hunger strike for 74 days.

It's a deal, but the biggest deal in the Middle East? Really? Nah. Egypt wins over that, and to be honest...SO DOES SYRIA. Why the hell is Syria being completely ignored? And I'm glad they resolved (though it shouldn't even have been an issue, since no country should hold people without charge like that).
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #519 on: May 14, 2012, 11:23:06 AM »
I don't see an end in sight for Syria tbh.
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Online Adami

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #520 on: May 14, 2012, 11:45:02 AM »
I don't see an end in sight for Syria tbh.

I have quite a few thoughts on the matter, but I keep them to myself in fear of being yelled at by everyone and then probably banned.


So I will say that I hope for the sake of my Syrian cousins, that this ends and soon. The middle east has enough blood in its roots as it is.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #521 on: May 17, 2012, 03:12:37 PM »
holy shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=iPQI6Yupt48

Having been to a lot of those places only made that preview more amazing. Hopefully the film is void of political agendas and is objective as possible.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #522 on: May 17, 2012, 05:11:06 PM »
My internet is slow as shit and not really loading the video. What's it about?
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Online Adami

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #523 on: May 17, 2012, 07:53:35 PM »
My internet is slow as shit and not really loading the video. What's it about?

Israel.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Israel Discussion Thread
« Reply #524 on: May 17, 2012, 08:02:33 PM »
Is that right? I never woulda guessed. :P
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