This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while.
Do you guys think the members recognize that some of their songs are lackluster? When they listen to Rite of Passage do they think to themselves, "man this song is not "good dream theater", or would they not release something they didn't fully like?

Thoughts?

At this point, I'm pretty sure (based on nothing in the slightest) that DT look at their songs through one of two lenses (or both at times).

1. Would this song be exciting live?

2. Is this song fun for us to play?

As long as a song answers yes to one of those questions, I'm pretty sure they're fine with it these days.

I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.

Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)

Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.

Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.

Quote from: InTheNameOfGod on July 30, 2010, 01:43:32 PM
I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.

Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)

Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.

Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.

I really don't understand that comment.  How can you say that songs the band themselves write, record and play live are "just not what DT are about"?  Maybe they aren't what YOU want them to be about, but I don't understand how the band can be anything BUT the songs they write and record - today, in the here and now.  Everybody evolves and changes, so has the band.  Would you rather they were just doing variations of I&W and Awake, not evolving/experimenting/changing their styles?  IMO, THAT is what DT is about ... diversity.

Quote from: jingle.boy on July 30, 2010, 02:41:07 PM

Quote from: InTheNameOfGod on July 30, 2010, 01:43:32 PM
I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.

Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)

Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.

Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.

I really don't understand that comment.  How can you say that songs the band themselves write, record and play live are "just not what DT are about"?  Maybe they aren't what YOU want them to be about, but I don't understand how the band can be anything BUT the songs they write and record - today, in the here and now.  Everybody evolves and changes, so has the band.  Would you rather they were just doing variations of I&W and Awake, not evolving/experimenting/changing their styles?  IMO, THAT is what DT is about ... diversity.

While ITNOG did say that, I think his actual point was completely valid if not taken too literally.

I don't see anything wrong with AROP.  It's a good song and I'm pretty sure DT feels the same way.  Otherwise, they wouldn't have played it in front of thousands of people opening for Iron Maiden.

Quote from: InTheNameOfGod on July 30, 2010, 01:43:32 PM
I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.

Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)

What Octavarium DVD?  There's only been two documentaries since 8VM.  Score and SC Special Edition.  You must be thinking of "The Score so far..."

A Rite of Passage is a good song. It's not the absolute most amazing thing they've ever written, but I like it.

If they just kept playing in the style of I&W and Awake, people would complain that they were stagnant.

Quote from: Dublagent66 on July 30, 2010, 03:15:00 PM
I don't see anything wrong with AROP.  It's a good song and I'm pretty sure DT feels the same way.  Otherwise, they wouldn't have played it in front of thousands of people opening for Iron Maiden.

Quote from: InTheNameOfGod on July 30, 2010, 01:43:32 PM
I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.

Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)

What Octavarium DVD?  There's only been two documentaries since 8VM.  Score and SC Special Edition.  You must be thinking of "The Score so far..."

Must have been Score.

Quote from: Adami on July 30, 2010, 01:20:02 PM
At this point, I'm pretty sure (based on nothing in the slightest) that DT look at their songs through one of two lenses (or both at times).

1. Would this song be exciting live?

2. Is this song fun for us to play?

As long as a song answers yes to one of those questions, I'm pretty sure they're fine with it these days.

I agree, but the bolded part is an understatement. DT (particularly JP and MP) have, more than once, implicitly stated that they tend to write more music that is likely to receive a good response from the concert audience these days.

I hated A Rite of Passage when I first heard it. Now, it's one of my favorite DT songs. I highly doubt DT would have put it on the album and made it the lead single if they didn't like it.

Quote from: LKap13 on July 30, 2010, 01:18:13 PM
This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while.
Do you guys think the members recognize that some of their songs are lackluster? When they listen to Rite of Passage do they think to themselves, "man this song is not "good dream theater", or would they not release something they didn't fully like?

Thoughts?

I think if they didn't like it, or didn't think it was "good DT", then it wouldn't have been released.

Quote from: InTheNameOfGod on July 30, 2010, 01:43:32 PM
I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.

Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)

Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.

Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.

......GTFO

Quote from: Adami on July 30, 2010, 01:20:02 PM
At this point, I'm pretty sure (based on nothing in the slightest) that DT look at their songs through one of two lenses (or both at times).

1. Would this song be exciting live?

2. Is this song fun for us to play?

As long as a song answers yes to one of those questions, I'm pretty sure they're fine with it these days.

Definitely Yes to that one.

Thoughts?

I think most artists get caught up in the creative process and have a difficult time judging the quality of their own work while they're in the midst of it.  As far as DT is concerned, why would anyone assume that they would believe their current work is not relevant to themselves or to their fans at large?  Who's to say that AROP is not more relevant to the average DT fan than PMU is?  Or that TBOT is not more relevant to MP than ACOS is?

Does Dream Theater make some "lackluster" songs?  Of course they do, but so does every other band on the planet.  That's the nature of any band's musical career.  Did Beethoven realize that his 8th symphony was "mediocre" as compared to his 5th?  Maybe...maybe not.  And even if he did feel that way, he forged on anyway and went on to write another masterpiece in his 9th.  That's what composers and artists do.  

Quote from: Jarlaxle on July 30, 2010, 04:46:09 PM

Quote from: InTheNameOfGod on July 30, 2010, 01:43:32 PM
I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.

Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)

Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.

Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.

......GTFO

Both incredibly average songs.

Especially IWBY. Probably my joint worst DT song.

Quote from: LudwigVan on July 30, 2010, 06:22:27 PM
Thoughts?

I think most artists get caught up in the creative process and have a difficult time judging the quality of their own work while they're in the midst of it.  As far as DT is concerned, why would anyone assume that they would believe their current work is not relevant to themselves or to their fans at large?  Who's to say that AROP is not more relevant to the average DT fan than PMU is?  Or that TBOT is not more relevant to MP than ACOS is?

Does Dream Theater make some "lackluster" songs?  Of course they do, but so does every other band on the planet.  That's the nature of any band's musical career.  Did Beethoven realize that his 8th symphony was "mediocre" as compared to his 5th?  Maybe...maybe not.  And even if he did feel that way, he forged on anyway and went on to write another masterpiece in his 9th.  That's what composers and artists do.  

Good post you got there Ludwig.

Quote from: LudwigVan on July 30, 2010, 06:22:27 PM
Thoughts?

I think most artists get caught up in the creative process and have a difficult time judging the quality of their own work while they're in the midst of it.  As far as DT is concerned, why would anyone assume that they would believe their current work is not relevant to themselves or to their fans at large?  Who's to say that AROP is not more relevant to the average DT fan than PMU is?  Or that TBOT is not more relevant to MP than ACOS is?

Does Dream Theater make some "lackluster" songs?  Of course they do, but so does every other band on the planet.  That's the nature of any band's musical career.  Did Beethoven realize that his 8th symphony was "mediocre" as compared to his 5th?  Maybe...maybe not.  And even if he did feel that way, he forged on anyway and went on to write another masterpiece in his 9th.  That's what composers and artists do.  

/thread

Quote from: InTheNameOfGod on July 30, 2010, 07:03:56 PM

Quote from: Jarlaxle on July 30, 2010, 04:46:09 PM

Quote from: InTheNameOfGod on July 30, 2010, 01:43:32 PM
I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.

Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)

Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.

Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.

......GTFO

Both incredibly average songs.

Especially IWBY. Probably my joint worst DT song.

So you're saying we shouldn't take your opinion seriously.

Quote from: TL on July 30, 2010, 11:36:48 PM

Quote from: InTheNameOfGod on July 30, 2010, 07:03:56 PM

Quote from: Jarlaxle on July 30, 2010, 04:46:09 PM

Quote from: InTheNameOfGod on July 30, 2010, 01:43:32 PM
I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.

Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)

Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.

Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.

......GTFO

Both incredibly average songs.

Especially IWBY. Probably my joint worst DT song.

So you're saying we shouldn't take your opinion seriously.

No, i'm saying they're both incredibly average songs.

I apologize if that's hurt your feelings. Sometimes the truth hurts. 

ehe..."The truth"? ^^ The truth is that IWBY and AROP are 2 incredibly average songs? ^^ I do not really think u decide how good a DT song is in overall, they might be average to you but that's just you, for me AROP is a prety cool song, not bad, not awesome, but good.

Quote from: BRGM on July 31, 2010, 04:48:57 AM
ehe..."The truth"? ^^ The truth is that IWBY and AROP are 2 incredibly average songs? ^^ I do not really think u decide how good a DT song is in overall, they might be average to you but that's just you, for me AROP is a prety cool song, not bad, not awesome, but good.

I can decide whatever I want. I think i'm entitled to my opinion, no matter how unpopular it may be.

The problem is, the majority of DT fans just cannot take critisism towards the band at all. I know this is a DT forum, but still. DT fans in general (atleast from my experience) are just very hard to reason with. They think DT is the be all and end all of progressive music, and while they are indeed pioneers for the genre, they're not the best out there, IMO. Or atleast haven't been for quite some time.

Which is ironic, considering the amount of negativity thrown around towards some of the bands in the Music Forum. People speak freely (and rightfully so) We should atleast level the playing field.

I consider AROP to be an alright song. Nothing more. I wouldn't want to hear it live at any DT concert, as there are dozens of much better songs they could be playing. I am a big fan of ToT but from my past live DT experiences, they don't seem to play much from this album at all. And i've seen DT live 14 times.

Can anybody explain what makes A Rite Of Passage a bad song besides vague terms like "lackluster?"

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 31, 2010, 06:37:30 AM
Can anybody explain what makes A Rite Of Passage a bad song besides vague terms like "lackluster?"

Exactly.

Quote from: LKap13 on July 30, 2010, 01:18:13 PM
This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while.
Do you guys think the members recognize that some of their songs are lackluster? When they listen to Rite of Passage do they think to themselves, "man this song is not "good dream theater", or would they not release something they didn't fully like?

Thoughts?

Why would they think this, AROP is an excellent song.

/thread

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 31, 2010, 06:37:30 AM
Can anybody explain what makes A Rite Of Passage a bad song besides vague terms like "lackluster?"

Not much replay value for me. After hearing it 3 or 4 times I felt the song pretty much gave me everything it had to offer and I couldn't muster up the effort to listen to it again. The fact that it has the same structure as Constant Motion was kinda bothersome because I felt like I knew exactly what was going to happen (RE: solo section, return to chorus) and DT doesn't usually have that kind of predictability. Lyrics aren't great either but that seems to be a non-issue with a lot of people.

Quote from: orcus116 on July 31, 2010, 07:58:14 AM
  The fact that it has the same structure as Constant Motion was kinda bothersome because I felt like I knew exactly what was going to happen (RE: solo section, return to chorus) and DT doesn't usually have that kind of predictability.

Okay, in all fairness, that is a pretty standard structure, except that DT often does two solos instead of one:

Intro
Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Solo Section
Chorus x 2 or 3
End

Many DT songs have that structure. 

Personally, "A Rite of Passage" is the song I have listened to the least from BC&SL, but it is still a pretty good song.  Not bad by any means, but not a career highlight either.

I probably just noticed it because it was the single of the album.

To be honest, I stopped taking the OP seriously when it questioned whether DT "recognise" that a song is of a lower quality, implying that the quality of the song is a fact and that DT are being blind if they don't accept that it's not good.

You don't like the song, fair enough. DT do like the song, otherwise they wouldn't have released it.

Quote from: ariich on July 31, 2010, 08:39:40 AM
You don't like the song, fair enough. DT do like the song, otherwise they wouldn't have released it.

/thread

Quote from: orcus116 on July 31, 2010, 07:58:14 AM

Quote from: ZKX-2099 on July 31, 2010, 06:37:30 AM
Can anybody explain what makes A Rite Of Passage a bad song besides vague terms like "lackluster?"

The fact that it has the same structure as Constant Motion was kinda bothersome because I felt like I knew exactly what was going to happen (RE: solo section, return to chorus)

So then you don't like As I Am, Pull Me Under, Panic Attack, Wither, Hollow Years, Anna Lee, Under A Glass Moon, A Fortune In Lies, Forsaken and These Walls?

None of those are as glaringly similar as AROP was to CM, plus most of those songs have redeeming qualities other than structure which make me enjoy them.

I have never ever thought of Constant Motion when I'm listening to AROP, I really can't understand why they are getting compared.

Quote from: wolfking on July 31, 2010, 09:13:30 AM
I have never ever thought of Constant Motion when I'm listening to AROP, I really can't understand why they are getting compared.

Me neither. They get compared because they were the first singles from their respective albums, but other than there's little similarity. As ZKX said, they share a song structure with a ton of other DT songs.

Quote from: ariich on July 31, 2010, 09:16:02 AM

Quote from: wolfking on July 31, 2010, 09:13:30 AM
I have never ever thought of Constant Motion when I'm listening to AROP, I really can't understand why they are getting compared.

Me neither. They get compared because they were the first singles from their respective albums, but other than there's little similarity. As ZKX said, they share a song structure with a ton of other DT songs.

yeah, pretty basic structure too really.  Plus the instrumental sections of CM and AROP couldn't be more different. 

And don't forget about the part with the bruthahood...

bruthahood

bruthahood

bruthahood