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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: LKap13 on July 30, 2010, 02:18:13 PM
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This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while.
Do you guys think the members recognize that some of their songs are lackluster? When they listen to Rite of Passage do they think to themselves, "man this song is not "good dream theater", or would they not release something they didn't fully like?
Thoughts?
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At this point, I'm pretty sure (based on nothing in the slightest) that DT look at their songs through one of two lenses (or both at times).
1. Would this song be exciting live?
2. Is this song fun for us to play?
As long as a song answers yes to one of those questions, I'm pretty sure they're fine with it these days.
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I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.
Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)
Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.
Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.
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I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.
Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)
Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.
Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.
I really don't understand that comment. How can you say that songs the band themselves write, record and play live are "just not what DT are about"? Maybe they aren't what YOU want them to be about, but I don't understand how the band can be anything BUT the songs they write and record - today, in the here and now. Everybody evolves and changes, so has the band. Would you rather they were just doing variations of I&W and Awake, not evolving/experimenting/changing their styles? IMO, THAT is what DT is about ... diversity.
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I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.
Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)
Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.
Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.
I really don't understand that comment. How can you say that songs the band themselves write, record and play live are "just not what DT are about"? Maybe they aren't what YOU want them to be about, but I don't understand how the band can be anything BUT the songs they write and record - today, in the here and now. Everybody evolves and changes, so has the band. Would you rather they were just doing variations of I&W and Awake, not evolving/experimenting/changing their styles? IMO, THAT is what DT is about ... diversity.
While ITNOG did say that, I think his actual point was completely valid if not taken too literally.
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I don't see anything wrong with AROP. It's a good song and I'm pretty sure DT feels the same way. Otherwise, they wouldn't have played it in front of thousands of people opening for Iron Maiden.
I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.
Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)
What Octavarium DVD? There's only been two documentaries since 8VM. Score and SC Special Edition. You must be thinking of "The Score so far..."
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A Rite of Passage is a good song. It's not the absolute most amazing thing they've ever written, but I like it.
If they just kept playing in the style of I&W and Awake, people would complain that they were stagnant.
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I don't see anything wrong with AROP. It's a good song and I'm pretty sure DT feels the same way. Otherwise, they wouldn't have played it in front of thousands of people opening for Iron Maiden.
I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.
Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)
What Octavarium DVD? There's only been two documentaries since 8VM. Score and SC Special Edition. You must be thinking of "The Score so far..."
Must have been Score.
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At this point, I'm pretty sure (based on nothing in the slightest) that DT look at their songs through one of two lenses (or both at times).
1. Would this song be exciting live?
2. Is this song fun for us to play?
As long as a song answers yes to one of those questions, I'm pretty sure they're fine with it these days.
I agree, but the bolded part is an understatement. DT (particularly JP and MP) have, more than once, implicitly stated that they tend to write more music that is likely to receive a good response from the concert audience these days.
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I hated A Rite of Passage when I first heard it. Now, it's one of my favorite DT songs. I highly doubt DT would have put it on the album and made it the lead single if they didn't like it.
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This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while.
Do you guys think the members recognize that some of their songs are lackluster? When they listen to Rite of Passage do they think to themselves, "man this song is not "good dream theater", or would they not release something they didn't fully like?
Thoughts?
I think if they didn't like it, or didn't think it was "good DT", then it wouldn't have been released.
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I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.
Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)
Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.
Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.
......GTFO
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At this point, I'm pretty sure (based on nothing in the slightest) that DT look at their songs through one of two lenses (or both at times).
1. Would this song be exciting live?
2. Is this song fun for us to play?
As long as a song answers yes to one of those questions, I'm pretty sure they're fine with it these days.
Definitely Yes to that one.
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Thoughts?
I think most artists get caught up in the creative process and have a difficult time judging the quality of their own work while they're in the midst of it. As far as DT is concerned, why would anyone assume that they would believe their current work is not relevant to themselves or to their fans at large? Who's to say that AROP is not more relevant to the average DT fan than PMU is? Or that TBOT is not more relevant to MP than ACOS is?
Does Dream Theater make some "lackluster" songs? Of course they do, but so does every other band on the planet. That's the nature of any band's musical career. Did Beethoven realize that his 8th symphony was "mediocre" as compared to his 5th? Maybe...maybe not. And even if he did feel that way, he forged on anyway and went on to write another masterpiece in his 9th. That's what composers and artists do.
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I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.
Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)
Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.
Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.
......GTFO
Both incredibly average songs.
Especially IWBY. Probably my joint worst DT song.
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Thoughts?
I think most artists get caught up in the creative process and have a difficult time judging the quality of their own work while they're in the midst of it. As far as DT is concerned, why would anyone assume that they would believe their current work is not relevant to themselves or to their fans at large? Who's to say that AROP is not more relevant to the average DT fan than PMU is? Or that TBOT is not more relevant to MP than ACOS is?
Does Dream Theater make some "lackluster" songs? Of course they do, but so does every other band on the planet. That's the nature of any band's musical career. Did Beethoven realize that his 8th symphony was "mediocre" as compared to his 5th? Maybe...maybe not. And even if he did feel that way, he forged on anyway and went on to write another masterpiece in his 9th. That's what composers and artists do.
Good post you got there Ludwig.
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Thoughts?
I think most artists get caught up in the creative process and have a difficult time judging the quality of their own work while they're in the midst of it. As far as DT is concerned, why would anyone assume that they would believe their current work is not relevant to themselves or to their fans at large? Who's to say that AROP is not more relevant to the average DT fan than PMU is? Or that TBOT is not more relevant to MP than ACOS is?
Does Dream Theater make some "lackluster" songs? Of course they do, but so does every other band on the planet. That's the nature of any band's musical career. Did Beethoven realize that his 8th symphony was "mediocre" as compared to his 5th? Maybe...maybe not. And even if he did feel that way, he forged on anyway and went on to write another masterpiece in his 9th. That's what composers and artists do.
/thread
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I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.
Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)
Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.
Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.
......GTFO
Both incredibly average songs.
Especially IWBY. Probably my joint worst DT song.
So you're saying we shouldn't take your opinion seriously.
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I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.
Petrucci said on the Octavatium DVD that 'where we are now is where we always wanted to be' (or something along those lines)
Can't say I agreed with John there in the slightest. Where they wanted to be was 5-10 years behind Octavarium, back when they made exceptional music.
Songs like A Rite of Passage, Never Enough, Panic Attack, I Walk Beside You, Prophets Of War and Constant Motion is just not what DT are about, IMO.
......GTFO
Both incredibly average songs.
Especially IWBY. Probably my joint worst DT song.
So you're saying we shouldn't take your opinion seriously.
No, i'm saying they're both incredibly average songs.
I apologize if that's hurt your feelings. Sometimes the truth hurts. :)
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ehe..."The truth"? ^^ The truth is that IWBY and AROP are 2 incredibly average songs? ^^ I do not really think u decide how good a DT song is in overall, they might be average to you but that's just you, for me AROP is a prety cool song, not bad, not awesome, but good.
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ehe..."The truth"? ^^ The truth is that IWBY and AROP are 2 incredibly average songs? ^^ I do not really think u decide how good a DT song is in overall, they might be average to you but that's just you, for me AROP is a prety cool song, not bad, not awesome, but good.
I can decide whatever I want. I think i'm entitled to my opinion, no matter how unpopular it may be.
The problem is, the majority of DT fans just cannot take critisism towards the band at all. I know this is a DT forum, but still. DT fans in general (atleast from my experience) are just very hard to reason with. They think DT is the be all and end all of progressive music, and while they are indeed pioneers for the genre, they're not the best out there, IMO. Or atleast haven't been for quite some time.
Which is ironic, considering the amount of negativity thrown around towards some of the bands in the Music Forum. People speak freely (and rightfully so) We should atleast level the playing field.
I consider AROP to be an alright song. Nothing more. I wouldn't want to hear it live at any DT concert, as there are dozens of much better songs they could be playing. I am a big fan of ToT but from my past live DT experiences, they don't seem to play much from this album at all. And i've seen DT live 14 times.
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Can anybody explain what makes A Rite Of Passage a bad song besides vague terms like "lackluster?"
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Can anybody explain what makes A Rite Of Passage a bad song besides vague terms like "lackluster?"
Exactly.
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This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while.
Do you guys think the members recognize that some of their songs are lackluster? When they listen to Rite of Passage do they think to themselves, "man this song is not "good dream theater", or would they not release something they didn't fully like?
Thoughts?
Why would they think this, AROP is an excellent song.
/thread
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Can anybody explain what makes A Rite Of Passage a bad song besides vague terms like "lackluster?"
Not much replay value for me. After hearing it 3 or 4 times I felt the song pretty much gave me everything it had to offer and I couldn't muster up the effort to listen to it again. The fact that it has the same structure as Constant Motion was kinda bothersome because I felt like I knew exactly what was going to happen (RE: solo section, return to chorus) and DT doesn't usually have that kind of predictability. Lyrics aren't great either but that seems to be a non-issue with a lot of people.
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The fact that it has the same structure as Constant Motion was kinda bothersome because I felt like I knew exactly what was going to happen (RE: solo section, return to chorus) and DT doesn't usually have that kind of predictability.
Okay, in all fairness, that is a pretty standard structure, except that DT often does two solos instead of one:
Intro
Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Solo Section
Chorus x 2 or 3
End
Many DT songs have that structure.
Personally, "A Rite of Passage" is the song I have listened to the least from BC&SL, but it is still a pretty good song. Not bad by any means, but not a career highlight either.
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I probably just noticed it because it was the single of the album.
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To be honest, I stopped taking the OP seriously when it questioned whether DT "recognise" that a song is of a lower quality, implying that the quality of the song is a fact and that DT are being blind if they don't accept that it's not good.
You don't like the song, fair enough. DT do like the song, otherwise they wouldn't have released it.
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You don't like the song, fair enough. DT do like the song, otherwise they wouldn't have released it.
/thread
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Can anybody explain what makes A Rite Of Passage a bad song besides vague terms like "lackluster?"
The fact that it has the same structure as Constant Motion was kinda bothersome because I felt like I knew exactly what was going to happen (RE: solo section, return to chorus)
So then you don't like As I Am, Pull Me Under, Panic Attack, Wither, Hollow Years, Anna Lee, Under A Glass Moon, A Fortune In Lies, Forsaken and These Walls?
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None of those are as glaringly similar as AROP was to CM, plus most of those songs have redeeming qualities other than structure which make me enjoy them.
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I have never ever thought of Constant Motion when I'm listening to AROP, I really can't understand why they are getting compared.
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I have never ever thought of Constant Motion when I'm listening to AROP, I really can't understand why they are getting compared.
Me neither. They get compared because they were the first singles from their respective albums, but other than there's little similarity. As ZKX said, they share a song structure with a ton of other DT songs.
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I have never ever thought of Constant Motion when I'm listening to AROP, I really can't understand why they are getting compared.
Me neither. They get compared because they were the first singles from their respective albums, but other than there's little similarity. As ZKX said, they share a song structure with a ton of other DT songs.
yeah, pretty basic structure too really. Plus the instrumental sections of CM and AROP couldn't be more different. :lol
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And don't forget about the part with the bruthahood...
bruthahood
bruthahood
bruthahood
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A lot of what has been said targets the general philosophical problem of "is there such a thing as a factually good song vs. a factually bad song?" . I suppose the answer is no; everyone is of course entitled to his opinion. However, as members of the dT forum, our tastes most likely are similar in certain ways. For example, a song by Britney Spears or Creed can be factually "lackluster" on this forum. Though, I'm sure the members of the Spears and Creed forums would take issue with our saying that.
It's very hard for me to believe that a dT fan can honestly say that the quality of AROP is anywhere close to that of 99% of the band's other stuff. If you happen to like AROP, then that's your right, and so I guess your response to this thread should be "AROP is a perfectly good song, so DT would not see it as lackluster etc." But my guess would be that most of the people on here don't share the view.
So what makes the song "lackluster"? Well it's very hard to put a feeling into words, but somehow (and it's interesting) many people of this subgroup (dT fans) get a similar feeling. As was already said, the song's structure is predictable and generic. There is also no replay value in the track: I can listen to "Voices" ten times in a row and continue discovering new intricacies; if I were to listen to AROP twice in a row I would have to stop after the second go. There is nothing interesting about the chord progressions or notes being played. If instead of the first chorus, the band had decided to continue the song in a different direction, it probably would be a decent song, but instead, to the pitiful, cheesy sounding chorus. But the worst part of the song comes at 7:07 when the band's most awkward and rough transition can be heard (transition from instrumental section to the chorus). Basically everything a (usual!) dT fan looks for in a song is missing. I will say that the instrumental section is good, and there are some cool drum parts there. JP's solo is decent and JR's electronic sounds are very cool. Overall, it ranks in the bottom 1% of the band's catalog.
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Overall, it ranks in the bottom 1% of the band's catalog.
So, you think it is their worst song (since they don't have 100 songs yet, saying it is in the bottom 1% would mean this)? Like I said before, I don't think it is anything special, but I could name at least 20 DT songs that it is better than.
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yeah I don't like AROP either, its one of their worst, hope the next album is a lot better!
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this board never thinks DT can do any wrong...
I sure hope this is sarcasm, because, if it isn't, you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Overall, it ranks in the bottom 1% of the band's catalog.
So, you think it is their worst song (since they don't have 100 songs yet, saying it is in the bottom 1% would mean this)? Like I said before, I don't think it is anything special, but I could name at least 20 DT songs that it is better than.
Good point.
The only song I can think of that might be worse is Constant Motion. But no, Constant Motion has a pretty sweet instrumental intro. Yea, I'd say it's their worst (maybe 2nd worst after CM, I can't decide).
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LKap, a few things:
A lot of what has been said targets the general philosophical problem of "is there such a thing as a factually good song vs. a factually bad song?" . I suppose the answer is no; everyone is of course entitled to his opinion.
Good, here we are in agreement, as are the majority of people on this board (based on lengthy discussions we've had here in the past). Opinions on quality are subjective.
However, as members of the dT forum, our tastes most likely are similar in certain ways. For example, a song by Britney Spears or Creed can be factually "lackluster" on this forum.
Um, no. The only fact is that those things are likely to be less popular here (although plenty of people here have expressed their like of one or the other). "Lackluster" is simply an opinion, in all cases.
It's very hard for me to believe that a dT fan can honestly say that the quality of AROP is anywhere close to that of 99% of the band's other stuff.
It's hard for you to believe? Why do you assume that all DT fans have the same 1) tastes, 2) approach to music, and 3) mentality? The people on this forum, and in the fanbase generally, have a very diverse range of tastes, so with every DT song you would expect a lot of people to like it, no matter how "lackluster" you yourself might find it.
If you happen to like AROP, then that's your right, and so I guess your response to this thread should be "AROP is a perfectly good song, so DT would not see it as lackluster etc." But my guess would be that most of the people on here don't share the view.
I don't think it's fair to patronise people who like the song, just because you've decided it's not very good. I would imagine that most people here at least like the song, with a handful who love it.
As for the rest of your post, the reasons for you disliking the song are completely fair enough, and of course some people will share those opinions. But stop trying to generalise the DT fanbase, because it isn't as narrow in scope as you seem to think.
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I always find it odd when people call something bad because they don't like it.
And what's with the lower case d and capitalized t?
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I don't really like AROP that much but eh, DT likes so whatever.
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I always find it odd when people call something bad because they don't like it.
And what's with the lower case d and capitalized t?
Obviously the band's name is meant to be "dream THEATER". Yes, you have to yell "THEATER" while saying "dream" as a lower volume... Will Ferrell style.
-Marc.
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I always find it odd when people call something bad because they don't like it.
That doesn't make any sense at all. If you don't like something how can it be anything but bad? It's entirely your opinion.
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Man, I love this forum...
I personally think AROP is a good song. I think the chorus is very melodic and catchy, much more than Constant Motion or Panic Attack IMO. Also, everytime I hear the song, i DO find interesting new things. It took a while to pick up everything the random conspiracy voices said for example :lol . But also, in general, I just find it really good to listen, also the live version of the song was one of the highlights of the show in Caracas (and they played Beyond This Life, In The Name Of God and some other gems!).
To answer the question: I do think Dream Theater likes A Rite Of Passage.
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I always find it odd when people call something bad because they don't like it.
That doesn't make any sense at all. If you don't like something how can it be anything but bad? It's entirely your opinion.
It makes perfect sense. "I don't like it" is completely different to "it is bad". Obviously on a discussion forum, for the most part we take the latter to mean the former, but when someone starts wondering whether the band "recognise" an opinion as though it is fact, that's when people get annoyed.
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To me, AROP is not only not as good as songs like "Learning to Live" and "Scarred", it's in a completely different league.
The image (and words) in my mind when I made the thread was JP in his car listening to DT on shuffle, and on comes AROP. I think he might cringe a bit. Apparently many of you disagree with that notion, which is cool; that's why I posed the question.
My assumption in making the post was not that AROP is a factually bad song. Rather, the assumption was that it was the general consensus among DT fans that the song is bad.
Since my thread was attacked for assuming the factual basis of song quality, I would like to pose this scenario: If DT came out with a backstreet boys track on their next album, wouldn't my post be appropriate? I don't think anyone would dispute my assertion that DT have either lost their minds or had some ulterior motive and actually dislike the song. This indicates that it's not the logic of the argument that is at fault, but rather a difference in opinion about AROP. If there is a difference in opinion, then (as I mentioned previously), the correct answer is "yes they like AROP". But never, "HOW can they dislike AROP if the song isn't factually bad".
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If they released a Backstreet Boys style song, then one would assume that they liked it enough to release it. But even then it's not the same, because the style would be completely different, so you would at least have some justification for posing the question. Whereas a lot of DT's music is and has always been melodic metal, and AROP is melodic metal.
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If anything, John has it on in his car and thinks about how bad ass he sounds soloing.
I think you're wrong about the assumption. Most fans seem to like it, I'd say a great deal more than most other DT singles. And it gets a GREAT reception live from the fans.
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I always find it odd when people call something bad because they don't like it.
That doesn't make any sense at all. If you don't like something how can it be anything but bad? It's entirely your opinion.
It makes perfect sense. "I don't like it" is completely different to "it is bad". Obviously on a discussion forum, for the most part we take the latter to mean the former, but when someone starts wondering whether the band "recognise" an opinion as though it is fact, that's when people get annoyed.
Exactly. I'm no fan of Sun Ra or Avant-Garde Jazz, but I can appreciate the artistry and understand why it's good without liking it at all.
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The song's just kinda boring to me. Nothing interesting going on at all except the solo section. Maybe if it had a different chorus...
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To me, AROP is not only not as good as songs like "Learning to Live" and "Scarred", it's in a completely different league.
The image (and words) in my mind when I made the thread was JP in his car listening to DT on shuffle, and on comes AROP. I think he might cringe a bit. Apparently many of you disagree with that notion, which is cool; that's why I posed the question.
My assumption in making the post was not that AROP is a factually bad song. Rather, the assumption was that it was the general consensus among DT fans that the song is bad.
Since my thread was attacked for assuming the factual basis of song quality, I would like to pose this scenario: If DT came out with a backstreet boys track on their next album, wouldn't my post be appropriate? I don't think anyone would dispute my assertion that DT have either lost their minds or had some ulterior motive and actually dislike the song. This indicates that it's not the logic of the argument that is at fault, but rather a difference in opinion about AROP. If there is a difference in opinion, then (as I mentioned previously), the correct answer is "yes they like AROP". But never, "HOW can they dislike AROP if the song isn't factually bad".
How could a song be factually bad in the first place. The creator created it and released it, somewhat happy with their product, it's up to the people whether they like it or they don't, it all comes down to opinion.
We understand that you dislike the song, but a lot of us like AROP quite a lot.
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You know, I've heard of Dream Theater. I've heard of Dream Theatre. I've also even heard of Dream Thaeter and Dream Thaetre. And I've seen them all initialized as "DT." But never in my life have I heard of this band called "dT."
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You know, I've heard of Dream Theater. I've heard of Dream Theatre. I've also even heard of Dream Thaeter and Dream Thaetre. And I've seen them all initialized as "DT." But never in my life have I heard of this band called "dT."
It's just something I've been doing these past years.
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But... Why?
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When discussing Dream Theater and Symphony X I would always abbreviate as sX and dT . I guess I've always thought it looks cool to have the first letter lower case, second letter capitalized. There's no scientific reason here...
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I see no decline.
And I love AROP btw and BC&SL in general.
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When discussing Dream Theater and Symphony X I would always abbreviate as sX and dT . I guess I've always thought it looks cool to have the first letter lower case, second letter capitalized. There's no scientific reason here...
Looks very Java-like.
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Oh my god who cares.
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this board never thinks DT can do any wrong...
I sure hope this is sarcasm, because, if it isn't, you have no idea what you are talking about.
The only reason I ever get negative here is because it's the only place I can bring up some of my criticisms of DT. MP's forum, you can't do that
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You can't even really do that here or else you get banned for a week.
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You can't even really do that here or else you get banned for a week.
What? Unless you're calling DT a bunch of faggots or something, you can criticize them here all you want. As long as it's civil.
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DT are not British meatballs.
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:lol
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DT are not British meatballs.
Watch your language.
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DT are not British meatballs.
You said "balls", bant.
EDIT: But yeah Adami is right, people can be as negative as they want as long as they don't bash needlessly. Which is fine in itself, except that there seems to be a bit of a culture where people who try to defend something that is being attacked get put down for being "fanboys" or suchlike.
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You can't even really do that here or else you get banned for a week.
I think you're seeing the mistake in the wrong place.
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I don't think AROP is bad. To me, it's worse than bad - it's a little boring. But it is still much better than CM.
I still almost never listen to it, though.
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When discussing Dream Theater and Symphony X I would always abbreviate as sX and dT . I guess I've always thought it looks cool to have the first letter lower case, second letter capitalized. There's no scientific reason here...
Looks very Java-like.
It looks unnecessary to me.
Ontopic: Never cared for AROP. I prefer Wither, to be honest. Its shorter, but compared to AROP that's probably a good thing (Plus I'd argue that some of DT's best songs are their shorter songs).
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Wither really is an overlooked gem on BCASL; it's actually my favourite song on the album after The Count Of Tuscany.
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It's my favourite song on the album, just ahead of TCOT. Both are great though. :tup
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I love Wither. Fantastic song.
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I think with the last couple of albums DT has seen their fanbase growing and they like it, therefore they might devote one or two tracks on the album they're working on to trying to break through to mainstream a bit more. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but mainstream music fans want predictability in their music. Don't ask me why, but they do.
The guys are trying to cater to that crowd a little while still giving us what we want the other 70 or 80% of the time.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially since, imo, they're getting better at writing catchy hooks.
And there are a couple of DT songs that I don't like and they tend to play live a lot, but I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick. The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.
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They've always tried to break into the mainstream. The only era were it seems like there wasn't an obvious attempt was probably Scenes --> Octavarium. And even on Octavarium, I'd heard that they originally wanted a music video to go with I Walk Beside You.
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I think with the last couple of albums DT has seen their fanbase growing and they like it, therefore they might devote one or two tracks on the album they're working on to trying to break through to mainstream a bit more. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but mainstream music fans want predictability in their music. Don't ask me why, but they do.
The guys are trying to cater to that crowd a little while still giving us what we want the other 70 or 80% of the time.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially since, imo, they're getting better at writing catchy hooks.
And there are a couple of DT songs that I don't like and they tend to play live a lot, but I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick. The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.
I think I agree with everything you've said here, 2Timer. I fully understand the band's desire to break into the mainstream to acquire more fans (and make more money). In fact, last night I was trying to find the results of the band's quest to do so by seeing if BC&SL had more album sales than previous records. I wasn't able to find definite numbers, but I think the album was higher on the Billboard 100 charts than Systematic Chaos, which was previously the highest ranked album. (Does anyone have any more definite data?)
If this is the case, that DT is in fact growing in popularity, then I would expect the band to be a little more enthusiastic about going into the studio. Anways, I'm fine with one crappy mainstream song per album for the sake of expanding the fanbase. I just wonder if JP would ever listen to AROP voluntarily :P
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I can't say they have any Crappy mainstream songs on BC&SL, I like all songs here. but I see what u mean.
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W.T.F. I wish I wasn't on my phone.
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p.s. that post made after only reading first few posts of thread.
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Get 'em, Nick.
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I think with the last couple of albums DT has seen their fanbase growing and they like it, therefore they might devote one or two tracks on the album they're working on to trying to break through to mainstream a bit more. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but mainstream music fans want predictability in their music. Don't ask me why, but they do.
The guys are trying to cater to that crowd a little while still giving us what we want the other 70 or 80% of the time.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially since, imo, they're getting better at writing catchy hooks.
And there are a couple of DT songs that I don't like and they tend to play live a lot, but I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick. The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.
Great post 2Timer, I really couldn't have said it any better (or even nearly as good) myself. :tup
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In all honesty they've always had a song on each album that was radio friendly except SFAM & 6DOIT.
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I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick.
The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.
These two bits in particular are fantastically quotable. You're my new favourite.
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In all honesty they've always had a song on each album that was radio friendly except SFAM & 6DOIT.
This is a good point, although a fair amount of SFAM is very accessible (TSCO for example). So really it's just SDOIT.
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I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick.
The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.
These two bits in particular are fantastically quotable. You're my new favourite.
I agree with the second bit being quotable. The first bit, on the other hand, not so much. In context, I have absolutely no objection to the first bit being in 2Timer's orginial post; however, I wholeheartedly object to robwebster's drawing attention to it. When quoted, it sounds cheap.
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Knowing 2Timer, I very much doubt it was meant as a slight against you, but more as a general statement. We see similar comments to yours about all sorts of things quite a lot.
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I can't imagine singling them out and posting a whole thread questioning the band on their songwriting integrity just because not all of the shit they threw against my wall happened to stick.
The only thing more intricate than their older music is the various tastes of all the fans they've acquired over the last 25 years. They know they can't please all of us all of the time, but I think they do a great job of trying.
These two bits in particular are fantastically quotable. You're my new favourite.
I agree with the second bit being quotable. The first bit, on the other hand, not so much. In context, I have absolutely no objection to the first bit being in 2Timer's orginial post; however, I wholeheartedly object to robwebster's drawing attention to it. When quoted, it sounds cheap.
Sorry cap'n, but I think it's a fair comment. If it's any consolation I'm not singling you out, loads of people do it. You just happened to be one who did it in the thread where he mentioned it, and that's one of my favourite bits of commentary I've read so I'm happy to reinforce it. Don't take it personally.
It's like, I don't like Scarred. Ah well! That's my problem, not the band's. Like he says, fling enough shit at a wall and eventually some of it won't stick. The sky's not falling, just... accept it. Aye, they can like AROP. Pretty fond of it, even - they put it on an album and everything. It's a shame that you don't, but life goes on.
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I think we can all say a band does what it wants, and rightfully so, and as a consumer I have the right to like or not like. It's like that saying about TV. If you don't like what's on, change the channel.
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:corn
Jer-ry! Jer-ry! Jer-ry!
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Every time I start going through this thread I realize I can't respond to all this bullshit and baseless dumb posts without writing a mini-thesis. Due to certain people I can say this is honestly one of the worst threads I've ever seen. If this thread was a song, it would be worse than A Rite of Passage, no matter what your opinion of that song is, or however much you think you can objectively say how good or bad it is, in any case I guarantee you that the song called this thread is far worse.
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In all honesty they've always had a song on each album that was radio friendly except SFAM & 6DOIT.
This is a good point, although a fair amount of SFAM is very accessible (TSCO for example). So really it's just SDOIT.
Exactly, like "The Spirit Carries On" or even the one that GOT a single released, "Through Her Eyes". And actually, aren't SDOIT and 8VM the only albums without some sort of CD single released from that album?
I know WDADU had "Status Seeker" and "Afterlife"; IAW had "Pull Me Under", "Another Day" and "Take The Time"; Awake had "The Silent Man", "Caught In A Web" and "Lie"; FII with "Burning My Soul", "You Not Me" and "Hollow Years"; SFAM released the aforementioned "Through Her Eyes" single (more like EP at it's length!) and the lesser known "Home" single; "As I Am" was released from TOT; and the last two albums' single should be well known.
It's unfortunate because 8VM would've done well with "Panic Attack", and possibly even "I Walk Beside You", (really any of the -10 minute songs would've done well as singles)... makes one wonder why nothing was tried for SDOIT, though. I guess most of the album isn't as easily accessible, and the radio edits they made weren't so good, IMO.
-Marc.
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Let's start at the beginning.
This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while.
Do you guys think the members recognize that some of their songs are lackluster? When they listen to Rite of Passage do they think to themselves, "man this song is not "good dream theater", or would they not release something they didn't fully like?
Thoughts?
So let's get this straight, you've decided that "Rite of Passage" is a bad song, and so the band obviously shares your enlightened opinion that the song they've just spend days or weeks working on is also a bad song. Also, Dream Theater (notice how both words are capitalized?) are sitting around, consciously thinking to themselves, "If we could only talk to Dream Theater, they could tell us what we should sound like!" And then to top it off, the guys knowing the song doesn't sound like Dream Theater, and knowing the song is horrible, release it on an album anyway in order to make a music video and perhaps get a few spins on the radio.
It all makes sense now.
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I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.
YOU are also on very thin ice. Constructive criticism is allowed, however outright bashing is NOT. Heaven forbid Dream Theater don't "realise" their music has been getting as piss poor as this post. I find it so very odd that the guys who make a career out of Dream Theater actually enjoy and believe in the music they are releasing and feel each album is stronger than the one before it.
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At this point, I'm pretty sure (based on nothing in the slightest) that DT look at their songs through one of two lenses (or both at times).
1. Would this song be exciting live?
2. Is this song fun for us to play?
As long as a song answers yes to one of those questions, I'm pretty sure they're fine with it these days.
I agree, but the bolded part is an understatement. DT (particularly JP and MP) have, more than once, implicitly stated that they tend to write more music that is likely to receive a good response from the concert audience these days.
Two very good points, especially the first that so much of the critical points in this thread are unsubstantiated. And while I personally don't think they completely pre-occupy themselves with thinking about how a crowd will react (with the exception of Train of Thought, which they stated was a "live" album), I think the keep it in mind. I however do not believe that is necessarily a bad thing.
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And for the record, although stated in the original post, the actual arguments in the thread should have nothing to do with A Rite of Passage. ANY song could have been mentioned and a few people would have agreed it was bad, some would say it was alright, and most would say they enjoy it. That is not the point, the point is that people actually think because they think it's a bad song Dream Theater collectively obvious must know what a bad song it was when they released it.
I personally dislike The Ministry of Lost Souls, yet I bet 70% of Dream Theater fans would say they love it, and in any case I would not in a million years say, "Wow, what a bad song, what were they thinking, didn't they know how obviously bad that was when they wrote it?"
They wouldn't have made the song if they didn't believe in it.
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In all honesty they've always had a song on each album that was radio friendly except SFAM & 6DOIT.
This is a good point, although a fair amount of SFAM is very accessible (TSCO for example). So really it's just SDOIT.
And even with Six Degrees there's "Solitary Shell."
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The image (and words) in my mind when I made the thread was JP in his car listening to DT on shuffle, and on comes AROP. I think he might cringe a bit.
I just wonder if JP would ever listen to AROP voluntarily :P
These were easily the two stupidest and most frustrating things to read in this thread.
How in hell do you get the audacity to say what JP likes and doesn't like? How do you not realize that your perception of Dream Theater, DTF, and both of their opinions on A Rite of Passage (and subsequently, a bunch of Dream Theater's other material) is totally off-the-mark.
If Dream Theater did not like A Rite of Passage, why would they release it!?
Let alone make a video for it!?
Let alone go on tour, and play it over 100 times!?
Also, while I don't like to point out things like post counts in order to make a point, you have 33 post! Why do you think that you have a solid grasp on what DTF's general opinion is on any given song. Unless you've been lurking like a mad man...
I wish I could respond to InTheNameOfGod's posts as well, but I'll leave that be.
P.S - Don't write it dT. It looks stupid.
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If Dream Theater did not like A Rite of Passage, why would they release it!?
Let alone make a video for it!?
Let alone go on tour, and play it over 100 times!?
Apparently you can't fathom a band releasing a song to acquire more fans and appeal to a wider fan base.
The image (and words) in my mind when I made the thread was JP in his car listening to DT on shuffle, and on comes AROP. I think he might cringe a bit.
I just wonder if JP would ever listen to AROP voluntarily :P
These were easily the two stupidest and most frustrating things to read in this thread.
How in hell do you get the audacity to say what JP likes and doesn't like? How do you not realize that your perception of Dream Theater, DTF, and both of their opinions on A Rite of Passage (and subsequently, a bunch of Dream Theater's other material) is totally off-the-mark.
It doesn't take audacity to speculate as to whether an artist truly likes his work. It's a fair question, IMO. Also, I stated "This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while" in the initial post.
Nobody's "perception" of DT can be fully on-the-mark. It's hard to say what the members of the band feel about their music because it's highly unlikely that JP will come out in an interview and say "AROP is really not that great". It's simply not a wise move from a business standpoint (I think you can understand that).
Overall, you've displayed the utmost naivety in first taking for granted that all members of DT love all their music, and second assuming that one's "perception" of DT can justify an opinion about a song.
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Some bands write songs with the sole intention of them becoming popular. DT are one of those bands. However, most of those bands also LIKE the songs themselves, DT are one of those bands as well. They probably don't say "Hey, AROP is an opus to music, it is the greatest song to have ever been written". Its probably more like "Hey, this song is cool".
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I don't think they realise that their music has been on the decline. At all.
YOU are also on very thin ice. Constructive criticism is allowed, however outright bashing is NOT. Heaven forbid Dream Theater don't "realise" their music has been getting as piss poor as this post. I find it so very odd that the guys who make a career out of Dream Theater actually enjoy and believe in the music they are releasing and feel each album is stronger than the one before it.
Why can an artist not recognize that the work he's doing now is worse than the work he did in the past? Do you think that the members of DTF can realize that the quality of music on I&W and Awake is better than the quality of AROP, but the members of DT can't? Just because they're making the music, it doesn't mean that they become blind to reality.
You can question my definition of "reality" and "better" all you want. It's hard to argue about art because of the subjectivity involved, but Kant believed that there was such a thing as objective beauty, and I happen to buy into that theory. I am confident that all the music on I&W and Awake (for example) is better than AROP, and I think anyone educated in music (as DT are) would agree.
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Some bands write songs with the sole intention of them becoming popular. DT are one of those bands. However, most of those bands also LIKE the songs themselves, DT are one of those bands as well. They probably don't say "Hey, AROP is an opus to music, it is the greatest song to have ever been written". Its probably more like "Hey, this song is cool".
I can buy this.
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It doesn't take audacity to speculate as to whether an artist truly likes his work. It's a fair question, IMO. Also, I stated "This is not something anyone can really answer, but it's something that has been interesting to me for a while" in the initial post.
Nobody's "perception" of DT can be fully on-the-mark. It's hard to say what the members of the band feel about their music because it's highly unlikely that JP will come out in an interview and say "AROP is really not that great". It's simply not a wise move from a business standpoint (I think you can understand that).
Overall, you've displayed the utmost naivety in first taking for granted that all members of DT love all their music, and second assuming that one's "perception" of DT can justify an opinion about a song.
I never said that all members of DT love all their songs.
JP has stated he is not fond of playing Scarred. JLB says that New Millennium is his least favourite DT song to sing. Also, pretty much every member of DT except for MP is not crazy about pre-I&W material.
But, those songs have aged. The band members look back and say "yeah, that wasn't the greatest song" or even just "I guess that's the sound we were going for back then".
Hell, Mike said in a recent interview that it takes a few years to really be able to get a good opinion on an album they released.
However, BC&SL has, obviously, not had the time to simmer in DT's catalog. So, what does DT think about BC&SL? Well, if their remarks when it came out are to be believed, I think they are pretty damn happy with every song.
So, I don't see how I'm being naive in believing that DT likes the music they just put out when THEY FUCKING SAID IT THEMSELVES
Also, I never correlated the two separate points of your opinion of DT and your perception of DT, so I don't know where you get that idea from...
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I am confident that all the music on I&W and Awake (for example) is better than AROP, and I think anyone educated in music (as DT are) would agree.
I am educated in music. As are many people here.
Not everyone will agree.
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I never said that all members of DT love all their songs.
JP has stated he is not fond of playing Scarred. JLB says that New Millennium is his least favourite DT song to sing. Also, pretty much every member of DT except for MP is not crazy about pre-I&W material.
But, those songs have aged. The band members look back and say "yeah, that wasn't the greatest song" or even just "I guess that's the sound we were going for back then".
Hell, Mike said in a recent interview that it takes a few years to really be able to get a good opinion on an album they released.
However, BC&SL has, obviously, not had the time to simmer in DT's catalog. So, what does DT think about BC&SL? Well, if their remarks when it came out are to be believed, I think they are pretty damn happy with every song.
First, your mention of the material JP and JLB don't like to perform live is irrelevant. I hope you can agree. Also, the members not being crazy about pre-I&W material doesn't indicate that they would come out and say they're not crazy about their latest album. Again, it has to do with business!
So, I don't see how I'm being naive in believing that DT likes the music they just put out when THEY FUCKING SAID IT THEMSELVES
This statement is very disturbing and self-destructive from a logical perspective. You are demonstrating your naivety in the very statement that you attempt to disown it. Do you not understand the concept of promotion?
Are you willing to accept the possibility of AROP being released for a fan-base-building goal? I assume you are, because you didn't touch on that part of my post in your reply.
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I am educated in music. As are many people here.
Not everyone will agree.
This makes no logical sense. Your education in music doesn't give any authority to your claim that "not everyone will agree".
If you had said "I am educated in music. As are many people here. I don't agree. Not everyone will agree" then you would be making sense. The question is, DO you agree?
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I think I agree with everything you've said here, 2Timer. I fully understand the band's desire to break into the mainstream to acquire more fans (and make more money). In fact, last night I was trying to find the results of the band's quest to do so by seeing if BC&SL had more album sales than previous records. I wasn't able to find definite numbers, but I think the album was higher on the Billboard 100 charts than Systematic Chaos, which was previously the highest ranked album. (Does anyone have any more definite data?)
If this is the case, that DT is in fact growing in popularity, then I would expect the band to be a little more enthusiastic about going into the studio. Anways, I'm fine with one crappy mainstream song per album for the sake of expanding the fanbase. I just wonder if JP would ever listen to AROP voluntarily :P
To clarify, the reason that SC and BC&SL charted as high as they did was because they were both released through Roadrunner Records, which has done a fantastic job in promoting Dream Theater since signing them.
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Yes, I understand the premise of a single, which I believe is the term you are looking for. Nevertheless, I don't see why it matters if it's a 2-minute song or a 20-minute epic, Dream Theater would not put out a song that they were not happy with at the time. Do I know this for a fact? No. But, do I believe anything otherwise? No.
I have faith in Dream Theater's musical integrity that they would put out music that they are happy with.
A single used for attracting new fans =/= bad song, despite what you seem to be driving at.
I am educated in music. As are many people here.
Not everyone will agree.
This makes no logical sense. Your education in music doesn't give any authority to your claim that "not everyone will agree".
If you had said "I am educated in music. As are many people here. I don't agree. Not everyone will agree" then you would be making sense. The question is, DO you agree?
So, you basically just ignored eveything I said, didn't you. OF COURSE I DON'T AGREE!! I've been rebutting your logic-less points several times here, trying to get into your head that lots of people will not and do not agree with your assessment.
Your statement was "I am confident that all the music on I&W and Awake (for example) is better than AROP, and I think anyone educated in music (as DT are) would agree." I am telling you right now that I am educated in music and I do not agree. Several people have already stated they do not agree with you, and they are educated in music as well.
Do you get it yet?
Seriously, I sincerely regret getting involved here. This is so frustrating to argue my points with someone who believes what they want to believe and expects anyone who doesn't do the same to be insane.
Honestly, if the sky was blue and I said it was blue, you would say it was red.
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Yes, I understand the premise of a single, which I believe is the term you are looking for. Nevertheless, I don't see why it matters if it's a 2-minute song or a 20-minute epic...
Huh? What does the song's length have to do with anything?
Dream Theater would not put out a song that they were not happy with at the time. Do I know this for a fact? No. But, do I believe anything otherwise? No.
Thank you for answering my initial question.
A single used for attracting new fans =/= bad song, despite what you seem to be driving at.
It's true, a single used for attracting new fans doesn't necessarily = a bad song. At the same time, an appeal to the masses will inevitably constitute a dumbing down of the music. This is because the masses are generally not interested in intricate, technical, complex, intelligent, cerebral, etc. music (if you want to dispute this point, just turn on your radio).
So, you basically just ignored eveything I said, didn't you. OF COURSE I DON'T AGREE!! I've been rebutting your logic-less points several times here, trying to get into your head that lots of people will not and do not agree with your assessment.
Your statement was "I am confident that all the music on I&W and Awake (for example) is better than AROP, and I think anyone educated in music (as DT are) would agree." I am telling you right now that I am educated in music and I do not agree. Several people have already stated they do not agree with you, and they are educated in music as well.
Do you get it yet?
I don't think you ever explicitly said that AROP is comparable to 1992,1994 stuff. It sounded like you were mainly attacking my logic. But anyway, now you've made it clear that you think AROP is no worse than I&W and Awake. You and all the other people on here are perfectly entitled to this opinion. I think people who think Creed is no worse than I&W and Awake are entitled to that opinion as well; I simply can't take those people seriously when discussing music...
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I am educated in music. As are many people here.
Not everyone will agree.
This makes no logical sense. Your education in music doesn't give any authority to your claim that "not everyone will agree".
If you had said "I am educated in music. As are many people here. I don't agree. Not everyone will agree" then you would be making sense. The question is, DO you agree?
It makes perfect sense. Now, will you stop playing the part of the contrarian and please cut it out for fuck's sake?
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LKap, you really shouldn't call people naive when they point out the flaws in your logic.
Just because a band or artist might tailor a song in order to increase the chances of drawing a crowd (which I can assure you the vast majority of musicians do, otherwise how would they make a living?), it doesn't follow that they are doing so at the expense of artistic credibility. I like lots of intricate, intelligent music, and I also like lots of fun, catchy music with great melodies. Many many people are like that, including (as far as I can tell from interviews etc) all the members of DT. Of course they won't think that AROP is the greatest, most artistic song ever, but that wasn't the point of it. That doesn't mean they don't think it's great for what it is.
And your argument could be extended to something on every single one of their albums. Another Day? The Silent Man? About half of FII?
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I'm still having a little trouble with this, so right. LKap. Sincere question for you, and it's only a very teeny bit loaded. Barely an ulterior motive at all.
What about A Rite of Passage makes it so poignantly unlikeable that it was worth making a thread for?
Genuine question. I myself really dig it. It's the best song on BCSL to play loudly and just let rip. But aside from personal views, what makes it so distinctly unlikeable that the band themselves would resent it?
I mean, we've seen what happens when they dislike a song. They refuse to play it. You Not Me got about three token outings and then they ditched it, and that was explicitly designed to expand the fanbase. Meanwhile, the MP tourography isn't allowing searches right now so I can't grab the figures, and setra's list doesn't tabulate them separately, but Hell's Kitchen has barely been touched except in the context of Burning My Soul. Dunno how versed you are on the history of it, but HK was written as the instrumental section to Burning My Soul, until the label made 'em separate it on the album. (Sorry if you already know all this, no idea how long you've been a fan or how deep you've gone.) The end result, a song that they barely played, until a few years later when it was put back into its original context.
And, aside from that, A Rite of Passage isn't that different from the rest of their modern day output. Why would they specifically loathe that song, when it would've fitted onto Systematic Chaos with nary a problem, an album which they were really hyped about and very much enjoyed playing - with Constant Motion, AROP's closest neighbour in terms of tone and structure still being played regularly on the BCSL tour. They're not playing it to win over fans, if someone's come to the show it's not just gonna be because they've just heard A Rite of Passage (somewhere?) and felt like pissing £25 away. It's gonna because they like more than one song. So they'd easily be able to get away with not playing it. Easily. In fact, if it went so far against the grain of their current material, they'd probably avoid it, You Not Me style. So again, nothing inherently out of place or dislikeable.
Not to mention, it's their job, and as with anyone doing a job, they're gonna want to make it as enjoyable as possible while still getting it done. Imagine you had a job summarising movies, and then someone went "Right, we have got every movie in the world, you have to summarise ten of 'em." Where are you gonna go first? And, more crucially, where are you gonna go most often? Twilight or Ghostbusters? Gonna head straight into the Uwe Boll back catalogue or dig into The Good, The Bad and The Ugly? ...Chances are, the ones you play are gonna be the ones you like the most. And DT aren't honour bound to play any song in particular.
So I'm very sorry, but I have no idea why they would dislike A Rite of Passage, and I can't really respond any more thoroughly until I know why you think they would. I honestly think it's more likely that your tastes have just detached from the band's somewhat. They've been throwing shit at your wall, slightly less of it's sticking than it used to. Which is a shame and I'm sorry you don't like it as much as other people do (myself included! Love a bit of AROP), but I don't really get how you've made this logical leap from "It's a song I don't like" to "How can they possibly like this dross?!"
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LKap13, the problem is that your initial post (and subsequent posts) assumes two things: (1) it assumes DT probably think AROP is substandard; (2) it assumes anyone who disagrees with you is unreasonable. Both make you come across as arrogant and condescending, which will get you into trouble here, get your threads locked, and get you banned. You don't have to like anything DT does, and you don't have to like anyone here. But when your posts come across as this thread does, that's a problem, as Nick and ariich have already attempted to point out to you.
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Nice of people to show up so I don't have to respond to anything.
One thing I would like to make clear:
Yes, I understand the premise of a single, which I believe is the term you are looking for. Nevertheless, I don't see why it matters if it's a 2-minute song or a 20-minute epic...
Huh? What does the song's length have to do with anything?
It doesn't. It was my way of saying it doesn't matter if the song is an intricate epic or a minimalistic single, DT would not put out music that they were unhappy with.
Anyway, I am fucking out of here!
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LKap13, ultimately, it sounds like your argument is, "I don't like the song, so therefore the band doesn't like it either, and they only wrote it to appeal to the prog metal masses."
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I am educated in music. As are many people here.
Not everyone will agree.
This makes no logical sense. Your education in music doesn't give any authority to your claim that "not everyone will agree".
If you had said "I am educated in music. As are many people here. I don't agree. Not everyone will agree" then you would be making sense. The question is, DO you agree?
It makes perfect sense. Now, will you stop playing the part of the contrarian and please cut it out for fuck's sake?
I wasn't playing any part. I sincerely wasn't sure if he agreed or not.
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This thread makes me :facepalm:
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LKap, you really shouldn't call people naive when they point out the flaws in your logic.
I didn't call him naive because he pointed out a flaw in my logic. I called him naive because it didn't seem like he had considered the possibility of: 1) DT releasing a song for the sole purpose of expanding their fan base and 2) DT saying they like a song without actually liking it (for the most basic purpose of promotion).
Just because a band or artist might tailor a song in order to increase the chances of drawing a crowd (which I can assure you the vast majority of musicians do, otherwise how would they make a living?), it doesn't follow that they are doing so at the expense of artistic credibility. I like lots of intricate, intelligent music, and I also like lots of fun, catchy music with great melodies. Many many people are like that, including (as far as I can tell from interviews etc) all the members of DT. Of course they won't think that AROP is the greatest, most artistic song ever, but that wasn't the point of it. That doesn't mean they don't think it's great for what it is.
And your argument could be extended to something on every single one of their albums. Another Day? The Silent Man? About half of FII?
As I've previously said, I have absolutely no problem with DT releasing a song per album for the sake of appealing to the masses. Your view is that the band thinks these mainstream songs are great for what they are. This isn't an angle I had really considered prior to making the thread, so I appreciate your input. This explanation is certainly plausible.
Can my thread be extended to something on every other album of theirs? YES! In fact, the thread can be extended to every song in the DT catalogue. The only difference is that, if I was to ask if DT truly loved "Learning to Live", the answer would be : "Yes they love it. They play it as encores. It's a fan favorite, etc." There would have been no uproar about my thread (the only uproar would have been about how my taste in music was off). On the other hand, since the song I mentioned was not a time-tested classic, there was an uproar. This is a paradox. Anyway... I have to finish this post later.
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I'm still having a little trouble with this, so right. LKap. Sincere question for you, and it's only a very teeny bit loaded. Barely an ulterior motive at all.
What about A Rite of Passage makes it so poignantly unlikeable that it was worth making a thread for?
Genuine question. I myself really dig it. It's the best song on BCSL to play loudly and just let rip. But aside from personal views, what makes it so distinctly unlikeable that the band themselves would resent it?
I mean, we've seen what happens when they dislike a song. They refuse to play it. You Not Me got about three token outings and then they ditched it, and that was explicitly designed to expand the fanbase. Meanwhile, the MP tourography isn't allowing searches right now so I can't grab the figures, and setra's list doesn't tabulate them separately, but Hell's Kitchen has barely been touched except in the context of Burning My Soul. Dunno how versed you are on the history of it, but HK was written as the instrumental section to Burning My Soul, until the label made 'em separate it on the album. (Sorry if you already know all this, no idea how long you've been a fan or how deep you've gone.) The end result, a song that they barely played, until a few years later when it was put back into its original context.
And, aside from that, A Rite of Passage isn't that different from the rest of their modern day output. Why would they specifically loathe that song, when it would've fitted onto Systematic Chaos with nary a problem, an album which they were really hyped about and very much enjoyed playing - with Constant Motion, AROP's closest neighbour in terms of tone and structure still being played regularly on the BCSL tour. They're not playing it to win over fans, if someone's come to the show it's not just gonna be because they've just heard A Rite of Passage (somewhere?) and felt like pissing £25 away. It's gonna because they like more than one song. So they'd easily be able to get away with not playing it. Easily. In fact, if it went so far against the grain of their current material, they'd probably avoid it, You Not Me style. So again, nothing inherently out of place or dislikeable.
Not to mention, it's their job, and as with anyone doing a job, they're gonna want to make it as enjoyable as possible while still getting it done. Imagine you had a job summarising movies, and then someone went "Right, we have got every movie in the world, you have to summarise ten of 'em." Where are you gonna go first? And, more crucially, where are you gonna go most often? Twilight or Ghostbusters? Gonna head straight into the Uwe Boll back catalogue or dig into The Good, The Bad and The Ugly? ...Chances are, the ones you play are gonna be the ones you like the most. And DT aren't honour bound to play any song in particular.
Thank you for this post, it was very informative and on topic. I didn't know that HK was intended to be a part of Burning My Soul.
So I'm very sorry, but I have no idea why they would dislike A Rite of Passage, and I can't really respond any more thoroughly until I know why you think they would. I honestly think it's more likely that your tastes have just detached from the band's somewhat. They've been throwing shit at your wall, slightly less of it's sticking than it used to. Which is a shame and I'm sorry you don't like it as much as other people do (myself included! Love a bit of AROP), but I don't really get how you've made this logical leap from "It's a song I don't like" to "How can they possibly like this dross?!"
I've already described my gripes with the song. Unfortunately talking logically about songs doesn't really convey the message. I can't describe why I think AROP is poor, other than it's the feeling I get when listening to the song. Maybe it's "...Turn the key...."
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Yeah I hate songs that reference keys being turned. :P
But you're right, it is largely a feeling, either you like a song or you don't. Pretty much everyone who gives reasons to justify why they dislike a song will like other songs that have those same characteristics. Ultimately the characteristics are only partially relevant, but the most important thing is the subjective qualities that you experience. Describing a song as "good" or "bad" only really makes sense in the context of one's own opinion.
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I can see where bands might not be too fond of a particular song they recorded, but it usually only happens after a significant amount of time has passed. For instance, Neil Peart has said that he would prefer Rush's catalog to begin with Moving Pictures -- but that's his opinion now. Ask him about Caress Of Steel and he'll tell you that they LOVED it back in 1975. So is it possible DT might eventually look back on AROP and not be thrilled with it? Sure, it's possible. But there's no way to know that yet.
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I can see where bands might not be too fond of a particular song they recorded, but it usually only happens after a significant amount of time has passed. For instance, Neil Peart has said that he would prefer Rush's catalog to begin with Moving Pictures[/i] -- but that's his opinion now. Ask him about Caress Of Steel and he'll tell you that they LOVED it back in 1975. So is it possible DT might eventually look back on AROP and not be thrilled with it? Sure, it's possible. But there's no way to know that yet.
Whhaaaaaatttt??????????????????
Oh, the poor misguided man . . . :facepalm:
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I can see where bands might not be too fond of a particular song they recorded, but it usually only happens after a significant amount of time has passed. For instance, Neil Peart has said that he would prefer Rush's catalog to begin with Moving Pictures[/i] -- but that's his opinion now. Ask him about Caress Of Steel and he'll tell you that they LOVED it back in 1975. So is it possible DT might eventually look back on AROP and not be thrilled with it? Sure, it's possible. But there's no way to know that yet.
Whhaaaaaatttt??????????????????
Oh, the poor misguided man . . . :facepalm:
Why such a reaction? Everything he said made perfect sense.
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First off, Moving Pictures isn't that good. Permanent Waves is way better.
I DO think that Rush's longer, more "epic" stuff is really overrated, though.
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dont assume that how you feel about a song is how they feel about a song.
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I can see where bands might not be too fond of a particular song they recorded, but it usually only happens after a significant amount of time has passed. For instance, Neil Peart has said that he would prefer Rush's catalog to begin with Moving Pictures[/i] -- but that's his opinion now. Ask him about Caress Of Steel and he'll tell you that they LOVED it back in 1975. So is it possible DT might eventually look back on AROP and not be thrilled with it? Sure, it's possible. But there's no way to know that yet.
Whhaaaaaatttt??????????????????
Oh, the poor misguided man . . . :facepalm:
I guess I should have known to post the source of Neil's quote: "Oh, those were the growing years [in reference to records like FBN and CoS], and I often equate that to children's drawings on the refrigerator that hang around too long, you know? I really wish they would just go away. I think we really started ... wow, given my druthers, I would make our first album Moving Pictures. I can't think of a single reason not to do that." (Contents Under Pressure, 2004, p. 35-36)
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Musicians are funny sometimes. Peart thinking Rush should have started with MP is like Roger Waters or Nick Mason (cannot remember which one it was) once saying that Pink Floyd should have stopped after Dark Side of the Moon since they were unlikely to ever top it.
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As far as I remember Peart didn't say they should have started at MP. But that MP was when he felt rush were in the most true and genuine form. That it was the first album that really expressed who they were as a band. I am also pretty sure Peart is smart to realize that without the ealrier albums, they wouldn't have made MP. Thus, not start with it, but that it was the pinnacle of who they are.
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As far as I remember Peart didn't say they should have started at MP. But that MP was when he felt rush were in the most true and genuine form. That it was the first album that really expressed who they were as a band. I am also pretty sure Peart is smart to realize that without the ealrier albums, they wouldn't have made MP. Thus, not start with it, but that it was the pinnacle of who they are.
That may well have been more what he meant, but that's not really what he said, if you'll look at the quote in post 124.
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Can dT like Rite of Passage?
why yes, they can! :facepalm:
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Short, but to the point.
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Short, but to the point.
that's what she said.... :hat
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