I just had a thought to throw on BC&SL for the first time in a long while.
The vocals on "Without warning, out of nowhere!" all the way to before "Stunned and bewildered..." have MP underneath JLB singing the lyrics harshly. I never noticed this for some reason. And it's loud. So weird to notice that now.
Anyway, it makes it all the more weirder to hear MP on those parts. Discuss this feeling.
Sounds like spoken word style to me, nub. Kinda like what Jon Schaffer does in some Iced Earth songs. Not a harsh thing about them.
GOOD DAY SIR!
They sound psychosane, now that you commented on it.
Yeah, now you know.
I SAID PLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH!
I don't love them, but there not as cringe-worthy as "DAY AFTER DAY," so I tolerate them.
I also just realized I can't even listen to ANTR the whole way through anymore. It's so boring to me past Beautiful Agony. And I am starting to think the part before BA is not very good as well.
These orcus pills work wonders.
I've always liked Mike's backing vocals whenever they aren't "growls", and that part really works IMO.
Oh, and the Beautiful Agony part is almost the best they have ever done. Such a shame it's not repeated.
GOOD VOCALS
Quote from: Jamesman42 on October 12, 2011, 06:34:42 PM
I just had a thought to throw on BC&SL for the first time in a long while.
The vocals on "Without warning, out of nowhere!" all the way to before "Stunned and bewildered..." have MP underneath JLB singing the lyrics harshly. I never noticed this for some reason. And it's loud. So weird to notice that now.
Anyway, it makes it all the more weirder to hear MP on those parts. Discuss this feeling.
My feeling is they didn't need to be there, and never should have. James is a professional singer who have proven time and time again that he can layer his voice awesomely. Mike and John are just average joes.
Quote from: Jamesman42 on October 12, 2011, 06:46:36 PM
I also just realized I can't even listen to ANTR the whole way through anymore. It's so boring to me past Beautiful Agony. And I am starting to think the part before BA is not very good as well.
Honestly, most of that song doesn't seem that great to me. The subject matter and the vocals are kind of silly, much like most of the other songs on that album. But yeah, I'd not noticed the MP vocal part under there until you mentioned it.
I don't mind the MP vocals on the "Without warning" part. The DAY AFTER DAY part is awful though.
I like the guitar and guitar riffs in the song, but that's pretty much it. Oh, and some of JLB's vocal melodies. I don't necessarily dislike MP's backing vocals, but I don't really care for them, either. I wish he had limited his vocal contributions to stuff like the AA Suite and Prophets of War (yes, I actually kind of like the little rap part).
I really love that song, start to finish, including the vocals. But maybe that's because I love death metal (even when I know MP doesn't growl like Mikael Åkerfeldt); I love the music and the vocals/lyrics. I always find it weird when someone has an opinion completely different from what I think, but that's the interesting thing about everyone having their own oppinions. ;)
Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 12, 2011, 07:32:42 PM
My feeling is they didn't need to be there, and never should have. James is a professional singer who have proven time and time again that he can layer his voice awesomely. Mike and John are just average joes.
Agreed. James is such a talent, it's amazing that Mike seemed to discount his "instrument" at times.
I always have been pretty cool with Mike and John's backing vocals as far as singing is concerned. I'm a huge vocals fan so I actually wish they had done more harmonies. I enjoy the Without Warning vocals. However, Day After Day etc is awful. Like I don't have anything constructive to say. It's just my least favorite part of any DT song that isn't Vital Star or TMOLS. I enjoy Mike's voice on TGP, WIMH, and pretty much any time he sings. I'm even ok with POW spoken part. But Day After Day. Not at all. I also think prefer him doing call and response vocals, or harmonies. I'm not too in love with him singing co-lead save for Fatal Tragedy and Home.
To be fair, James would suggest that Mike/John do backing vocals in places where he thought they'd fit better. It wasn't just MP being a control freak or anything. He improved them throughout his time in the band (especially live), but I wish they were kept to a very bare minimum in the studio. I just like James' voice too much.
I really like MP's spoken vocals underneath the singing. He also does it in ITPOE, and several others. I'd say it's possibly Pantera influenced, since Phil Anselmo did that all the time, especially on later albums.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 13, 2011, 12:18:01 AM
I really like MP's spoken vocals underneath the singing. He also does it in ITPOE, and several others. I'd say it's possibly Pantera influenced, since Phil Anselmo did that all the time, especially on later albums.
Quote from: Infinite Cactus on October 12, 2011, 09:24:09 PM
However, Day After Day etc is awful. It's just my least favorite part of any DT song
This. "Did they ever see the red light?!?" is the worst lyrical line in any DT song ever.
The backing vocals in without warning also punches a bit too much through and it sounds like its floating in the mix, some subtle effects like the one in the verses of This Dying Soul could have made it much better. I just feel like my ear is getting tickled by that part.
Peaceful sedation however is in the top 5 of DT backing vox, but it's more of JP singing than MP there.
Quote from: Jamesman42 on October 12, 2011, 06:38:48 PM
They sound psychosane, now that you commented on it.
Good one :metal
In another thread on this forum, the "Day after day" lyrical section was discussed, and how it connects to the storyline of the song. Some people claimed that such an agressive sound to a lyrical section that is basically saying that everyone survived, which would make it a happy ending, was unfitting. Some people also claimed that it's not a happy ending at all, but rather saying that even though everyone survived, the memory of the accident is still haunting and comes back to the person in nightmares, which to me seems much more realistic.
With that in mind, I think it would be interesting to hear the lyrics being sung/spoken in a similar way that James does during the "Hello mirror..." section of TDS, but with a touch of "wringing in bed from a nightmare" (not sure about the word wringing, but according to google translate, it's the right word :) ). I think the contrast between that singing style and the agressive music would create a creepier sound, kind of like the verse of Slipknot's song Duality. Then the big "ROOOOAAAAAARRRRR" at the end wouldn't be necessary :)
They should get Morgan Freeman to re-record that spoken verse. Tell me that wouldn't make it awesome. You can't, because it would make it awesome.
If I didn't have people around, I'd totally do the impression myself. :lol
I've wanted to hear the original, JLB only version for ages. I always thought it was curious that MP didn't have that one, but had all the other ones (i.e., the ones which were clearly worse than the actual album cut). When I saw the ones with the most potential for awesome were left out I couldn't help but think that it'd been done intentionally to make it seem like the final cut was the best option.
Did they actually record a JLB only one?
Probably, but that's not the way it is on the stems.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 13, 2011, 03:12:43 AM
Did they actually record a JLB only one?
MP did some post on his forum where he explained the whole story behind this passage. According to that post, JLB was originally singing something different, and he posted sound clips with the different versions they recorded (JLB, JLB+MP, MP, cookie monster). Out of those versions, I got to say that the MP only actually sounded the best, although I still think they could have done it better. If someone has a link to this post, please post it here!
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 13, 2011, 02:54:58 AM
They should get Morgan Freeman to re-record that spoken verse.
Or the dude that did the spoken parts in Voices which is one of the most intense and butt muscle tighteningest music ever. Hell, even Lou Reed.
I dare say they sound... MOTHAF***ING PSYCHOSANE.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 13, 2011, 03:12:43 AM
Did they actually record a JLB only one?
I don't think so, they probably just rehearsed it. When Mike posted the clips on his own forum two years ago, there was no James only version. It was Mike doing the real Cookie Monster deal, the version with Mike and James (I thought this one had potential, had it been executed a bit better), and the final version.
Quote from: Mladen on October 13, 2011, 04:43:35 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 13, 2011, 03:12:43 AM
Did they actually record a JLB only one?
I don't think so, they probably just rehearsed it. When Mike posted the clips on his own forum two years ago, there was no James only version. It was Mike doing the real Cookie Monster deal, the version with Mike and James (I thought this one had potential, had it been executed a bit better), and the final version.
I think it's pretty safe to say they did record it. The one with both Mike and James singing is there, so I'd imagine originally there was one just with James. If not, I think you can just listen to the one with Mike AND James singing and pretend Mike's not there. If you do that, you kinda get an idea that the original vocal line was much different, as were the lyrics. It might have been the best of all options, but we'll never know since it's not available to us.
Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 13, 2011, 05:24:19 AM
Quote from: Mladen on October 13, 2011, 04:43:35 AM
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 13, 2011, 03:12:43 AM
Did they actually record a JLB only one?
I don't think so, they probably just rehearsed it. When Mike posted the clips on his own forum two years ago, there was no James only version. It was Mike doing the real Cookie Monster deal, the version with Mike and James (I thought this one had potential, had it been executed a bit better), and the final version.
I think it's pretty safe to say they did record it. The one with both Mike and James singing is there, so I'd imagine originally there was one just with James. If not, I think you can just listen to the one with Mike AND James singing and pretend Mike's not there. If you do that, you kinda get an idea that the original vocal line was much different, as were the lyrics. It might have been the best of all options, but we'll never know since it's not available to us.
According to MP's post, the JLB vocals were added later as a "counterpoint" to the MP vocals. So I'm pretty sure JLB's vocals in the first half were only written in response to MP's part, so I highly doubt the original lyrics were any different to what we got in the final.
However, JLB is singing the first regular verse of that section over the second half, and I think it's safe to say that the vocal melodies there are what we would have gotten for that section, so you can probably judge from that.
Maybe they recorded the whole section that way, although given that MP said a sample was not available, I'd say he legitimately had no recording of it. If they recorded it at all, MP probably raised the issue and recorded his part that same day, and so they probably didn't have a burned mix of that version, which they probably did at the end of every day (I'm guessing here).
If we assume that I'm right that JLB's vocals over the second half are what we would have gotten, then there's no reason to assume MP is intentionally hiding the JLB only version to hide or manipulate people into believing the final was the best version.
It's just food for thought :hat
Hopefully, if they bring that song back into the live rotation it'll be with whatever the original melody John P. intended was.
Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 13, 2011, 05:52:55 AM
It's just food for thought :hat
Hopefully, if they bring that song back into the live rotation it'll be with whatever the original melody John P. intended was.
Which might be interesting, I gotta say. :smiley:
Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 13, 2011, 05:52:55 AM
It's just food for thought :hat
Hopefully, if they bring that song back into the live rotation it'll be with whatever the original melody John P. intended was.
I would actually really like that, being a big fan of ANTR, even if it's just for a live DVD, since I don't expect it in rotation this tour.
Let me know if this link works (right click and save it, I guess)
https://www.blobvandam.com/antr_jlb.mp3
A little mockup I just made so you can judge it. (sorry about the shit audio quality)
Am I the only one who has no complaints with any Portnoy vocals. I always enjoy it when they mix it up.
Also I think it's unfair to make it sound like Mike was the one forcing his vocal sections in. If James was the kinda guy who wanted only HIS vocals I'm sure he wouldn't have split duties on Static Impulse.
I think MP has improved vocally quite a bit over the years. I actually think his voice fits the Transatlantic style of music and it has sounded the best on those albums. With that said, for whatever reason, I don't think it works so well harmonizing with James' voice and I've never been a big fan of it on DT albums because of that. Much of the time he's used it to bring a rougher, more metal sounding vocal melody and it's never really sounded good to me. I just don't think his voice is suited well to that.
Honestly, ANTR to me is pretty damn boring to me. It's funny that one of their more sillier songs is paired with the most beautiful music they've ever written, IMO which is the Beautiful Agony part.
Quote from: JimmyJava on October 13, 2011, 06:51:07 AM
Honestly, ANTR to me is pretty damn boring to me. It's funny that one of their more sillier songs is paired with the most beautiful music they've ever written, IMO which is the Beautiful Agony part.
Very much this.
ignore
I realized that MP's all over the place on that album. I mean, he sings in every song.
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on October 13, 2011, 07:10:34 AM
I realized that MP's all over the place on that album. I mean, he sings in every song.
It's only JLB/JP on Wither. That puts MP at 5/6 and JP at 3/6.
I actually didn't really have a point to that. Just wanted to correct it.
Oh, great. I thought that because MP sang some of the harmonies live, he also recorded them on the studio.
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on October 13, 2011, 07:21:01 AM
Oh, great. I thought that because MP sang some of the harmonies live, he also recorded them on the studio.
On a completely unrelated note, I hope you celebrated 8,888 posts properly.
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on October 13, 2011, 07:21:01 AM
Oh, great. I thought that because MP sang some of the harmonies live, he also recorded them on the studio.
Yeah, it's a rare case where there's a three part harmony on the record that only uses two of them, rather than just JLB, or all three.
Quote from: ResultsMayVary on October 13, 2011, 07:24:51 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on October 13, 2011, 07:21:01 AM
Oh, great. I thought that because MP sang some of the harmonies live, he also recorded them on the studio.
On a completely unrelated note, I hope you celebrated 8,888 posts properly.
yes, I'm still durnk
Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 12, 2011, 07:32:42 PM
My feeling is they didn't need to be there, and never should have. James is a professional singer who have proven time and time again that he can layer his voice awesomely. Mike and John are just average joes.
Agreed. Normally, I am in favor of using multiple singers, as opposed to one guy layering his voice, but when the vocal gap is so massive as it is between JLB and the others, I say go for the layered approach. I will give the example I have many times before: imagine if Take the Time had been written and recorded in the 2004-2009 period; they probably would have had Portnoy and Petrucci also prominently singing the "take the time" harmony, and the original version would have suffered greatly, and the song likely wouldn't be a fan favorite like it is.
Yup. It'd be one thing if James layered his vocals, and then John and Mike joined in because all of their unique voices had a natural, awesome sounding effect when harmonizing together, like Queen used to do (because even though Freddie was more than capable, the other guys voices just meshed so well with his). Unfortunately, when DT take that approach, it just sounds like two normal dudes singing along with an operatic singer. Kinda like when you're at a concert and someone is singing in your ear the whole night.
Quote from: KevShmev on October 13, 2011, 07:53:49 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 12, 2011, 07:32:42 PM
My feeling is they didn't need to be there, and never should have. James is a professional singer who have proven time and time again that he can layer his voice awesomely. Mike and John are just average joes.
Agreed. Normally, I am in favor of using multiple singers, as opposed to one guy layering his voice, but when the vocal gap is so massive as it is between JLB and the others, I say go for the layered approach. I will give the example I have many times before: imagine if Take the Time had been written and recorded in the 2004-2009 period; they probably would have had Portnoy and Petrucci also prominently singing the "take the time" harmony, and the original version would have suffered greatly, and the song likely wouldn't be a fan favorite like it is.
The problem with this comparison is that if Take The Time were recorded in 2004-2009, it wouldn't have been the same vocal melody anyway, because JLB's range isn't what it was in the IaW era, so it would have been lower register regardless. So it may well have ended up not sounding as good, but the arrangement would be changed the same way whether MP/JP were in there or not. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
And if it's written in their register anyway (which isn't hugely lower than JLB sings on recent albums), it is not going to suffer from having JP/MP sing the harmonies. On the contrary, for me it gains from having the tone and depth from the 3 voices. In fact, my favourite harmonies are the ones with all three by far. I don't recall they even wrote 3 part vocal harmonies on IaW, and there aren't any on the new album either, and I actually think ADTOE suffers a bit for that aspect compared to BCASL.
The vocal harmonies on BCASL are better those on ADTOE imo, and it's due to the tone and depth they have from having 3 different voices. Now don't get me wrong, I love the chorus harmony in Take The Time, and it's easily a top 5 DT song for me (probably 3, and the only songs above it are from SDOIT), but I'd say the beautiful agony chorus is every bit as good, if not even better. And I believe it gained from having JP and MP.
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on October 13, 2011, 06:04:18 AM
Also I think it's unfair to make it sound like Mike was the one forcing his vocal sections in. If James was the kinda guy who wanted only HIS vocals I'm sure he wouldn't have split duties on Static Impulse.
I do get your point, but at this point in time, enough evidence has surfaced in interviews that I do think it's safe to suggest MP was the driving force behind those vocals.
From an interview with Jordan Rudess: (https://www.lithiummagazine.com/interview-jordan-rudess-dream-theater-october-7th-2011)
Quote from: Jordan RudessThe Cookie Monster stuff, I have trouble listening to. It's not my thing, you know?
Quote from: Jordan Rudess(Trivium) have a lot of Cookie Monster vocals going on. I dunno, maybe I'm just getting old. I can't relate to it, and I'm glad that it got taken out of our mix of styles. I think we do better without it. Nobody here is really into that. Maybe Mike Portnoy had an element of his musical and personal life that captured that energy, and I think that is maybe why we had the element in our material.
And from an interview with James Labrie:Quote from: James LabrieHey we've touched on those elements in the past, the more heavy metal, almost screamo-like things, but, to be honest with you, I never personally thought that that had a part in Dream Theater's music. Yes, we are a progressive metal band but I think when we brought it to the point where we were actually close to "cookie monster vocals" on our songs, I thought we had gone too far, to be honest.
So we now have two band members suggesting that this style of vocals was definitely not their own idea. Both of them imply that they are happier without those vocals in their music. One of them even specifically suggests that those vocals existed because of Mike Portnoy, and implies that without Mike Portnoy, nobody in Dream Theater is interested in that style.
So, whether you like the vocals or not (I personally have no problem with them whatsoever), I think at this point it is pretty reasonable to say that MP was the only (or at least the main) reason for the inclusion of these vocals.
Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 13, 2011, 08:10:33 AM
Yup. It'd be one thing if James layered his vocals, and then John and Mike joined in because all of their unique voices had a natural, awesome sounding effect when harmonizing together, like Queen used to do (because even though Freddie was more than capable, the other guys voices just meshed so well with his). Unfortunately, when DT take that approach, it just sounds like two normal dudes singing along with an operatic singer. Kinda like when you're at a concert and someone is singing in your ear the whole night.
On the other hand, they want to be able to perform these songs live, and unless they do like Rush and sample the harmonies on stage, JP and/or someone else have to sing the harmonies live. When you start layering your own voice, especially when the range of it is completely different than the background singers, chances are that it won't sound as good live as it does on the album. I think that for a band like DT, that would be a shame, since they can reproduce (almost) everything they do in the studio live.
That being said, I think their voices blend quite well together. They just need to find the right spot for it. For example, during the Forsaken chorus or during "in peaceful sedation..." in ANTR, it sounds great. Watching the making of SC when they layer the harmonies on Forsaken gives me chills every time.
Interesting, Jaffa. I had never seen those quotes before, but it just proves that Portnoy was the one who brought that kind of vocal style into the band (I can't believe anyone would have thought differently, especially once they completely vanished on ADTOE). I mean, we now have quotes from JLB and JR saying that they didn't like them, Portnoy himself said that JP had a problem with them when working out how to the "Day after day" section in ANTR, so unless it was John Myung pushing them :lol, it was Portnoy.
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 13, 2011, 08:19:48 AM
Quote from: KevShmev on October 13, 2011, 07:53:49 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 12, 2011, 07:32:42 PM
My feeling is they didn't need to be there, and never should have. James is a professional singer who have proven time and time again that he can layer his voice awesomely. Mike and John are just average joes.
Agreed. Normally, I am in favor of using multiple singers, as opposed to one guy layering his voice, but when the vocal gap is so massive as it is between JLB and the others, I say go for the layered approach. I will give the example I have many times before: imagine if Take the Time had been written and recorded in the 2004-2009 period; they probably would have had Portnoy and Petrucci also prominently singing the "take the time" harmony, and the original version would have suffered greatly, and the song likely wouldn't be a fan favorite like it is.
The problem with this comparison is that if Take The Time were recorded in 2004-2009, it wouldn't have been the same vocal melody anyway, because JLB's range isn't what it was in the IaW era, so it would have been lower register regardless. So it may well have ended up not sounding as good, but the arrangement would be changed the same way whether MP/JP were in there or not. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
That is kind of missing my main point, though. I probably should have said it this way:
Imagine if they had had the same approach to vocals and harmonies in the early 90s that they did in the 00s; Take the Time would have had Portnoy and Petrucci also prominently singing the "take the time" harmony, and the original version would have suffered greatly, and the song likely wouldn't be a fan favorite like it is.
Quote from: KevShmev on October 13, 2011, 11:11:40 AM
That is kind of missing my main point, though. I probably should have said it this way:
Imagine if they had had the same approach to vocals and harmonies in the early 90s that they did in the 00s; Take the Time would have had Portnoy and Petrucci also prominently singing the "take the time" harmony, and the original version would have suffered greatly, and the song likely wouldn't be a fan favorite like it is.
You did specifically say if it was recorded from 2004-2009, so I took the hypothetical realistically. Regardless, I think it's a huge leap of baseless assumption to claim that having JP/MP in the chorus would likely diminish the fans' opinions of the song. I don't know what even supports that considering that the majority of these JP/MP harmonies have been well received. MP's harmonies are nothing like his "angry man" vocals, and I don't hear many fans have a problem with them.
I don't have a problem with MP's harmonies - in fact, I don't have a problem with any of his vocals at all; even the infamous ANTR 'RORORORORO' doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother everyone else - but I think Take the Time probably WOULD be worse off with JP/MP harmonies, just because I think TtT is perfect as is and therefore any change would be for the worse. But that's really neither here nor there, I suppose.
I am not a fan of the majority of MP's vocal contributions to Dream Theater. I actually like his backing vocals (and his lead vocal lines too) with Transatlantic, but the stuff he laid down with Dream Theater just makes me :facepalm:
Quote from: BlobVanDam on October 13, 2011, 06:00:19 AM
Quote from: Perpetual Change on October 13, 2011, 05:52:55 AM
It's just food for thought :hat
Hopefully, if they bring that song back into the live rotation it'll be with whatever the original melody John P. intended was.
I would actually really like that, being a big fan of ANTR, even if it's just for a live DVD, since I don't expect it in rotation this tour.
Let me know if this link works (right click and save it, I guess)
https://www.blobvandam.com/antr_jlb.mp3
A little mockup I just made so you can judge it. (sorry about the shit audio quality)
thanks for doing this. wow. didn't realise how high JLB went and how "eghweigjwegijweoijgwepji" MP's growls were at the end...
Woah, I have no problem with the official part of the official song off of the official album, but I actually like the way James sang that part better.. I wish they would have kept that, to be honest. :-\
Quote from: ZKX-2099 on October 13, 2011, 06:04:18 AM
Am I the only one who has no complaints with any Portnoy vocals. I always enjoy it when they mix it up.
Same here.
Wait, does Alex Lifeson not do harmonies during concerts?
Quote from: XXXB0BXXX on October 13, 2011, 09:13:04 PM
Wait, does Alex Lifeson not do harmonies during concerts?
He does some, but they are not that loud in the mix. His voice is much lower than Geddy's, so whenever there is a harmony in Geddy's range, it's sampled. I think Alex does some stuff in Subdivisions, Earthshine, Working them angels and a few other songs, although I can't remember all of them. If you watch a live DVD and see him kind of singing in the mic, there it is :) Although it's usually not loud enough to hear. Oddly enough.
Interesting. I like James' take on the "Day After Day" part. I also like that it apparently has no "everyone survived!" ending to it either. They really should have kept it that way.
Those lyrics fit that section MUCH better than the "everyone survived" lyrics, I wish they'd kept James' part in the final version. Not that I dislike MP's vocals in that section, it's just that the lyrics were better and it was more interesting with a real vocal melody.
Honestly ive always liked all the vocal harmonies MP and JP have contributed over the years I was very suprised when I joined this forum and found so much negativity towards MP's voice, he has sounded much better then jp for years.
As many others have said, the Peaceful Sedation section or whatever has brilliant harmonies and melodies overall.
I think this is a song of a too many hats. We have IMO the best mellow section/song on the album, a pretty good section before the mellow part, then the "aggressive vocals" formerly death metal vocal section. Also to tack on at near the end, we have the blast beat part. The last two parts basically should have been destroyed, but is really the most glaring symptom of the apparent problem in DT before.
As BlobVanDam was saying before about the DMetal vocals and JLB's clean ones; I do find it highly convenient that according to MP the JLB part alone was missing, or something to that effect. But the MP DMetal part alone was available. The only explanation is the two vocals parts were already merged and saved, and accidentally the JLB alone part was discarded. I do not know how it works in a professional studio, but something tells me they would save every little single part, merged or not, until a session is over.