Your Controversial Opinions on DT

[gzarruk]

I have nothing bad to say about Mike Mangini, and wish him all the best in his future endeavors; he's a monster drummer and brings a lot to his instrument and his fans.  It's not a crime, it's not an insult, it's not an issue that needs to be explained away, there's no blame that has to be placed, to acknowledge that maybe perhaps he wasn't the best possible fit for that particular job in the grand scheme of things.

But what job, though? To be Dream Theater's drummer? Or to do everything Mike Portnoy, the personality, did? Because he got hired for the former, not the latter, and he did that fantastically well. Some might even say he fit that job better than good ol' MP, I for one think he did. As for the latter, only MP can be and do MP, but that's where the other 4 members dropped the ball, IMO. Just my 2 cents.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

MP is a founding member in a band with a long history. There is no true replacement for that and they weren't hiring for that.

They conducted a search for drummers to come in and play the parts how they wanted and handle other aspects of the ship. Clearly determining set lists, being the press guy, etc were not part of that. Edit: nor should they have been as it would have been weird to have the new guy do either.

[emtee]

No better or more qualified drummer could have been hired after MP quit. A no-name wouldn't have worked. MM was the perfect choice to keep the band moving forward. Sadly, the production choices for 3 of 5 albums were very impactful in a negative way. Not his fault. I am simultaneously grateful for his era and impact and for MP's return.

[Stadler]

But what job, though? To be Dream Theater's drummer? Or to do everything Mike Portnoy, the personality, did? Because he got hired for the former, not the latter, and he did that fantastically well. Some might even say he fit that job better than good ol' MP, I for one think he did. As for the latter, only MP can be and do MP, but that's where the other 4 members dropped the ball, IMO. Just my 2 cents.

I wouldn't begrudge anyone from thinking that the two are the same thing, or at least have some overlap.  The drummer in Dream Theater isn't "just" a drummer, it's a partner with personality.  Ace Frehley might just be the worst (lead) guitar player to ever be in Kiss, but for many, it seems, he's the ONLY (lead) guitar player to ever be in Kiss. Mark St. John fucks up and he's unprofessional; Ace fucks up and it's "Ace being Ace! Love that goofball!"

I mean, Alcatraz suffered without Yngwie - even WITH Steve Vai - because Yngwie was more than just 'the guitar player'.  Gary Cherone is arguably a better singer than both Sam or Dave, and yet that was the worst incarnation of Van Halen for most people, and one of the knocks is that it was sort of directionless.  You might not like either of Sam or Dave's direction, but they were both forceful personalities that drove the behavior in that band.

There were, arguably (and arbitrarily) four or five requirements that were open on the day that Portnoy left.  Mangini filled one of them, admirably.  Whether the others were supposed to or not, the fact remains that three or four of the requirements never really were adequately filled, and as long as they were open, the remaining five members are fair game for criticism.

[Mosh]

I don't think they could have asked for a better drummer to fill the interim time without Portnoy than Mangini. If anything, having to hindsight to know that a reunion would happen, Mangini's time in the band makes even more sense. Frankly I am surprised this is up for debate.

[HOF]

I don't think they could have asked for a better drummer to fill the interim time without Portnoy than Mangini. If anything, having to hindsight to know that a reunion would happen, Mangini's time in the band makes even more sense. Frankly I am surprised this is up for debate.

Yeah, from a very casual follower of the Mangini era, Mangini seemed to be a good steward of the drum throne. Worked well with the band and kept it going strong after what was a major shakeup. He also filled the need for a top notch technical performer who could hang with the rest of the band and do MP's parts justice while adding his own thing. Obviously wasn't everything MP is as a band member or person, and nobody could have or should have expected him to be.

[TAC]

It's all a matter of taste.  I don't consider that Wilson poster to be anything special, certainly not better than the Dream Theater one.  I mean... do either of these artists have fans that are going to base a ticket purchase consideration on their perceived quality of tour poster?

Personally, I wouldn't care if they were to use AI, what gives me the shits is the overall quality control issue here, something very simple to do in the grand scheme of things. As I said, I am not talking about the aesthetics of the poster, that's a choice. It's the execution that's bad. They should care, it does matter. I used the SW poster because of the age factor and it is well executed.

Also, this isn't an isolated incident. They have always had issues with quality control when it comes to their visual identity: Album cover issues (self titled album), Hugh Syme reusing a "design" that he used for another album, the reunion announcement "band photo" etc.

It's puzzling how bad DT has gotten at this kind of stuff (remember the reunion picture when the Portnoy return was announced? That looked so lazy and half-assed), and while it may not impact their bottom line too much, I am surprised that any fans of this band would take "who cares if doesn't impact their pocketbook?" stance, considering a big appeal of DT to the more hardcore fan has always been their attention to detail with regards to the little things.

Pulled these quotes from the Parasomnia tour thread. Thought they'd be more relevant here I guess.

We've talked about this now with the Reunion pic, the album artwork... We've looked at why their popularity may have slipped in MP's absence.

I've long surmised that before MP left, and maybe it was MP's influence, but DT was always about making the fans feel special. A little extra treat, whether it was the YJR boots, the behind the scenes DVD extras, REAL fan club interaction and goodies. These are things that, aside from the music and performances, which will always be the MOST important thing when judging (not a great word, admittedly) a band to me, but sometimes what or why a band become a "favorite" is usually how I perceive their messaging to the fan base. 
And save for the amazing Drummer Audition video series, all of that went out the door when MP left. And it has gotten worse over time.

Before MP left, it felt like the band treated us like..fans. After MP left, I felt like they viewed us more as..customers. I realize it's a very fine line and is more about nuance than anything. There's tons of bands putting out great music. Dream Theater is one of them, but the more you view your fans as a money generator, the quicker, for me, that you slip back to the pack of a million other bands.
I guess that's how I would always explain why the Mangini Era never really advanced the band.

The above may or may not be bullshit, but it's one long time fan's opinion.


This tour poster would've invariably been met with "this would never happen with MP in the band". It's like going to a bakery for the most delicious cake, but the frosting is fucked up. That's what this feels like. Are the fans really not special enough for the band to give a shit about this kind of stuff? It can't just be about the music, the cake if you will. If you want to move back to the pack, keep telling your fans that they're not special enough for the finer points of the "fan experience".


Lastly, the debate about reaching new fans.. I'm honestly not sure that's a goal after seeing the ticket prices for the upcoming tour. It seems more about soaking their locked in fanbase. What new fan would take a chance at these prices to check out Dream Theater.

In fucking Providence of all places, a city where they haven't played since 1997 if I'm not mistaken, I can buy a 17th row seat for $191.50..

At the Nassau Coliseum I can buy a ticket on the floor 43 rows back for..$195.29. And if I want the aisle seat in the same row, it's gonna cost $208.34. Really?

Obviously, I have no idea what it takes to cover a tour, the band's margins, etc.. It's probably pretty low. I'm not trying to kill them on this. But I would guess that fans' margins are pretty low too. They're counting on their 40-50 y/o fans to shell this out. I really wonder how this tour will sell.
Now, I'll buy my ticket for Providence, hell, even love the show. I love listening and watching Dream Theater perform. But that mountain of DT soul inside me just eroded another rock in the process.

[Setlist Scotty]

We've talked about this now with the Reunion pic, the album artwork... We've looked at why their popularity may have slipped in MP's absence.

I've long surmised that before MP left, and maybe it was MP's influence, but DT was always about making the fans feel special. A little extra treat, whether it was the YJR boots, the behind the scenes DVD extras, REAL fan club interaction and goodies. These are things that, aside from the music and performances, which will always be the MOST important thing when judging (not a great word, admittedly) a band to me, but sometimes what or why a band become a "favorite" is usually how I perceive their messaging to the fan base. 
And save for the amazing Drummer Audition video series, all of that went out the door when MP left. And it has gotten worse over time.

Before MP left, it felt like the band treated us like..fans. After MP left, I felt like they viewed us more as..customers. I realize it's a very fine line and is more about nuance than anything. There's tons of bands putting out great music. Dream Theater is one of them, but the more you view your fans as a money generator, the quicker, for me, that you slip back to the pack of a million other bands.
I guess that's how I would always explain why the Mangini Era never really advanced the band.

The above may or may not be bullshit, but it's one long time fan's opinion.

I fully agree with your conclusion. Love him or hate him, MP has a pulse on things that no other band member ever has. It's a big part of why his return has been so greatly celebrated even though he's the drummer and why a certain contingent of fans never gave the MM-era of DT a chance.

This tour poster would've invariably been met with "this would never happen with MP in the band". It's like going to a bakery for the most delicious cake, but the frosting is fucked up. That's what this feels like. Are the fans really not special enough for the band to give a shit about this kind of stuff? It can't just be about the music, the cake if you will. If you want to move back to the pack, keep telling your fans that they're not special enough for the finer points of the "fan experience".

Specifically regarding the tour poster created for announcing the new batch of dates, I wouldn't/couldn't say definitively "that would never happen with MP in the band" not only because it has happened with him in the band, but also because details in artwork like this don't seem to be his focus, never mind that's assuming he was involved in this aspect which is just as unlikely as it is likely - we simply don't know.

Lastly, the debate about reaching new fans.. I'm honestly not sure that's a goal after seeing the ticket prices for the upcoming tour. It seems more about soaking their locked in fanbase. What new fan would take a chance at these prices to check out Dream Theater.

In fucking Providence of all places, a city where they haven't played since 1997 if I'm not mistaken, I can buy a 17th row seat for $191.50..

At the Nassau Coliseum I can buy a ticket on the floor 43 rows back for..$195.29. And if I want the aisle seat in the same row, it's gonna cost $208.34. Really?

Obviously, I have no idea what it takes to cover a tour, the band's margins, etc.. It's probably pretty low. I'm not trying to kill them on this. But I would guess that fans' margins are pretty low too. They're counting on their 40-50 y/o fans to shell this out. I really wonder how this tour will sell.
Now, I'll buy my ticket for Providence, hell, even love the show. I love listening and watching Dream Theater perform. But that mountain of DT soul inside me just eroded another rock in the process.

Well in all fairness, tour costs in general have risen dramatically post-pandemic, so that is definitely a factor for why ticket and merch prices have also gone up. That said, I don't know the specifics for DT, so could they be hiding behind that as an excuse to raise ticket prices? Maybe. But until we become privy to the details (which I doubt we ever will), all anyone can do is speculate.

That being said, Tank the Tech (who was a roadie and now has been tour managing Electric Callboy) has a YT channel that at times sheds light on the behind-the-scenes of a touring band, including expenses. On the DT Facebook group that Kim (noxon) runs (and that I help mod), I recently had to deal with a fan who was bent out of shape over the fact that DT didn't simply tack on a new Atlanta date to the end of their tour in March to make up for the show they had to cancel earlier due to JL being sick. A friend of mine reminded me of Tank the Tech's videos, so here's a pair that help explain just the bus costs involved for a tour leg (never mind all the other expenses in renting and transporting equipment, etc.). At the very least, they will probably help explain to some extent why DT's ticket prices have gone up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRqszYMuvOQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIM1pUivNEs

[Stadler]

Scotty, I don't know how you do it over there in that group; some of those people are INSUFFERABLE.  I mean, really. 

That Atlanta issue, an unavoidable consequence of having live singers on tour, was handled about as well as it could have been done.  I don't personally believe that there's even ONE thing to butch about in that event.  The dude got sick; a ticket is not a guarantee of satisfaction; it's a promise to provide a certain event, and they're doing that. PERIOD.

(I'm not a mean spirited person, but there's a small part of me that would love for the second show - the makeup show - to feature a cover album in it's entirety:  Limp Bizkit's Chocolate Starfish.  )

I'm with TAC 1000% on his first paragraphs.  That is exactly how I feel.  I don't begrudge them the artwork; I just don't.  Part of it is that I like that sort of style, and "bad shadows" don't ruin it for me, and even if they did, I can just ignore it.  Sabotage by Sabbath is one of my favorite records of all time; that cover???  Not so much: Bill Ward's ballsack shadows do very little for me. I do think there are fans that are overly entitled as to what they feel they should expect. 

As an aside, please don't ask how I know this, but I do have an understanding of what they netted from the RCMH show; let's just say that they are striking while the iron is hot, and I for one do not begrudge them that, after seeing the turnout for the Dreamsonic show. It works both ways and I'd rather DT gets it than Ticketmaster or some cover band.

[KevShmev]

I don't hold ticket prices against the band because those are up across the board with pretty much everyone since COVID, but attention to detail on the little things has definitely slipped in the band big time since Petrucci became the unquestioned leader (when Mangini was in the band and since Portnoy's return).  Remember the day Neil Peart died and JP played a Rush lick at the end of the last song that night and James audibly said, "What the fuck..." or something like that and then trailed off, as if he had no idea that Petrucci was going to do that.  It's kind of like, how do you not tell the rest of the band you are going to do that ahead of time?  Just little stuff like that stands out.  I still maintain that the songwriting was just fine from 2011-2021 (I think the band's three best albums of the last 20 years came from the Mangini years), but the little stuff definitely took a slide without Portnoy around.  We have no way of knowing, but I'll bet if this Atlanta situation had happened 5 years ago, the band wouldn't be making it up like this (playing back to back nights with two presumably very different sets).

[TAC]

Well in all fairness, tour costs in general have risen dramatically post-pandemic, so that is definitely a factor for why ticket and merch prices have also gone up. That said, I don't know the specifics for DT, so could they be hiding behind that as an excuse to raise ticket prices? Maybe. But until we become privy to the details (which I doubt we ever will), all anyone can do is speculate.

Oh for sure. I completely understand that.

That's why I included this..

Obviously, I have no idea what it takes to cover a tour, the band's margins, etc.. It's probably pretty low. I'm not trying to kill them on this.

Though speaking of merch, their t-shirt vendor since the pandemic has been terrible. The quality has really gone down compared to the tours pre pandemic. At least it seems..

That being said, Tank the Tech (who was a roadie and now has been tour managing Electric Callboy) has a YT channel that at times sheds light on the behind-the-scenes of a touring band, including expenses. On the DT Facebook group that Kim (noxon) runs (and that I help mod), I recently had to deal with a fan who was bent out of shape over the fact that DT didn't simply tack on a new Atlanta date to the end of their tour in March to make up for the show they had to cancel earlier due to JL being sick. A friend of mine reminded me of Tank the Tech's videos, so here's a pair that help explain just the bus costs involved for a tour leg (never mind all the other expenses in renting and transporting equipment, etc.). At the very least, they will probably help explain to some extent why DT's ticket prices have gone up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRqszYMuvOQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIM1pUivNEs

I know who Tank The Tech is. I've watched a ton of his videos. They are very interesting, though he's kind of a drag to get through.

Specifically regarding the tour poster created for announcing the new batch of dates, I wouldn't/couldn't say definitively "that would never happen with MP in the band" not only because it has happened with him in the band, but also because details in artwork like this don't seem to be his focus, never mind that's assuming he was involved in this aspect which is just as unlikely as it is likely - we simply don't know.

I think DT fans had this assumption that MP looked at everything. I mean, he himself has kind of led us to believe that. I'm not saying that. It's more of a trope or a meme/cliche at this point.

We have no way of knowing, but I'll bet if this Atlanta situation had happened 5 years ago, the band wouldn't be making it up like this (playing back to back nights with two presumably very different sets).

As in any past cancelled show, I also assumed that it'd be cancelled completely. I actually think they deserve kudos for playing the second night. That's a great thing.
"Dream Theater-Two Nights In Atlanta"...that'd make a great live album!

As an aside, please don't ask how I know this, but I do have an understanding of what they netted from the RCMH show; let's just say that they are striking while the iron is hot, and I for one do not begrudge them that, after seeing the turnout for the Dreamsonic show.

And don't get me wrong. I am not berudging the band from earning money and making a living. As far as ticket prices, I fully accept that I could be just an old man yelling at the clouds. But it works both ways. I hope I am not begrudged as a fan for making a living as well by passing up buying a ticket or a t-shirt.

[ReaperKK]

I don't hold ticket prices against the band because those are up across the board with pretty much everyone since COVID, but attention to detail on the little things has definitely slipped in the band big time since Petrucci became the unquestioned leader (when Mangini was in the band and since Portnoy's return).  Remember the day Neil Peart died and JP played a Rush lick at the end of the last song that night and James audibly said, "What the fuck..." or something like that and then trailed off, as if he had no idea that Petrucci was going to do that.  It's kind of like, how do you not tell the rest of the band you are going to do that ahead of time?  Just little stuff like that stands out.  I still maintain that the songwriting was just fine from 2011-2021 (I think the band's three best albums of the last 20 years came from the Mangini years), but the little stuff definitely took a slide without Portnoy around.  We have no way of knowing, but I'll bet if this Atlanta situation had happened 5 years ago, the band wouldn't be making it up like this (playing back to back nights with two presumably very different sets).

This sounds hilarious, I gotta find it

[hefdaddy42]

Before MP left, it felt like the band treated us like..fans. After MP left, I felt like they viewed us more as..customers.

I mean, I get that, my dude.  That's actually a really good way to describe it.

On the DT Facebook group that Kim (noxon) runs (and that I help mod), I recently had to deal with a fan who was bent out of shape over the fact that DT didn't simply tack on a new Atlanta date to the end of their tour in March to make up for the show they had to cancel earlier due to JL being sick.

You had to deal with an idiot.  The logistics would be ridiculous for such a thing.

[Dream Team]

Good conversation; Tim - great points. My wife and I are planning on attending the Schenectady show but I haven't actually gone on to see what I'll need to pay and I'm a little scared now . But I want DT to make their money, I don't want them having to drive a delivery truck on the side or something like some of my favorite 80s thrash bands do. I really wish they would play more dates for less per ticket, but that's not how they operate.

I have a question though: if they are really netting well on some of these shows, why not more US dates? Is it just because they already came through on the 40th anniv tour?

[Lonk]

This sounds hilarious, I gotta find it

If you do, please share it because I can't find anything 

[Evermind]

I know who Tank The Tech is.

Well that's a first

[hefdaddy42]

Well that's a first