DREAM THEATER - Europe leg of the 40th Anniversary Tour 2024-2025

[Dedalus]

Well, that's it then. Absolute, asked and answered, and applicable in all circumstances forevermore, including referencing music that hasn't even been created yet. 

Don't get mad. You wanted an autobiography, and I brought you the closest thing we have, a short interview that deals explicitly with the topic discussed here.

Now, if you disagree with the Mike Portnoy of yesteryear, that's fine.

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

Steve vai is not to John Petrucci as Portnoy is to Mangini. That's the bad analogy. And you're dead wrong to think that elite bodybuilding has nothing to do with talent (though another interesting topic for the general board is to what extent talent and genetics are intertwined).

Again, you completely missed the entire point of what I was saying, but that's fine. I thought we had moved past the point where you had it out for me (literally since the day I signed up, accusing me of being a troll), and nitpicking my posts to death. I'll let you have the last word, man. I know that's important to you 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

No further comment from me as I think Dedalus sufficed to settle it to the extent there was any real question on the matter.

[Stadler]

Don't get mad. You wanted an autobiography, and I brought you the closest thing we have, a short interview that deals explicitly with the topic discussed here.

Now, if you disagree with the Mike Portnoy of yesteryear, that's fine.

Nah, I'm not mad, at all, and I'm not disagreeing (or agreeing for that matter) with Mike.  I just differ in that I give people the benefit of the doubt, I guess, and acknowledge that there are no absolutes.  People are allowed to change and revisit things in their life.  I also said "if a woman cheats on me, she's done, no questions asked, fuck her".  Then when put in that position, with kids on the line and everything else, all my tough guy words went right out the window and that wasn't what ended our marriage.  And I'd make the exact same decision again if I had the chance.  He probably meant what he said, no doubt.  I think with all that's been done and said in the intervening years, if you put Mike in a room and said "learn The Astonishing or we demolish all of America west of the Mississippi, I'd like to think he'd give it the ol' college try, you know what I mean? 

[Stadler]

No further comment from me as I think Dedalus sufficed to settle it to the extent there was any real question on the matter.

See what I mean?  "Settled, to the extent there was even a question!".    As if every question ever has always been answered with all past, present and future possibilities entirely accounted for and with no ability for growth, evolution, or change of heart.

Look I'll be the first to say we should take him at his word, and I do. He acknowledged there are likely ("maybe" was his word) things that Mangini can do he can't. Fair. That's for him to decide.  I just think we should afford people the grace to also re-evaluate where they stand; otherwise there is no growth, is there?

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

No further comment from me as I think Dedalus sufficed to settle it to the extent there was any real question on the matter.

Portnoy saying he can't play that way and not actually being able to play that way are two very different things. I still maintain he's talented enough to reach that level of proficiency, if he wanted to. But, given that he's admitted on record that he doesn't practice outside of performances, it's likely that he has no interest in reaching that level of proficiency. Maybe that's what bothers you, and why you have a chip on your shoulder, when it comes to this topic. In any case, Portnoy not being interested to reach that same level of proficiency is not the same thing as not being talented enough to.

The Vai and Petrucci analogy is perfectly sound, whereas your body building analogy is not. I don't think anyone should be assuming what Portnoy (or any talented musician) can't do. That's very presumptuous, and I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. In any case, this thread isn't about Portnoy vs Mangini, so take that shit elsewhere.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Sheesh you sound like you're taking this all very personally. Take a  and understand it's all respectful music banter.

[emtee]

Luckily we have albums with both drummers that will be listened to for years. I've grown weary of the never ending debate. They're both  at the highest levels of professional drumming. I don't care about note-for-note replication in a live setting...not with any band or any drummer. Albums serve that purpose.

[cramx3]

I've grown weary of the never ending debate.

Yeah, it's not that interesting to me anymore.  I'm certainly interested in seeing MP play the MM songs, but I really doubt I find myself doing a big comparison unless something seems completely different to me (I haven't watched any videos from the tour). I do look forward to seeing MP play other MM songs, including songs from TA (if they go that route).  I honestly would love to see TA in the setlist.

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

Luckily we have albums with both drummers that will be listened to for years. I've grown weary of the never ending debate. They're both  at the highest levels of professional drumming. I don't care about note-for-note replication in a live setting...not with any band or any drummer. Albums serve that purpose.

Very well said. Couldn't agree more. The drummer debate is so fucking old, and unfortunately some people can't stop with the comparisons, and making it a competition. Music isn't sports, people. It's art. It's okay to be a fan of both drummers, and appreciate albums from both eras. It's really not that hard.

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

Sheesh you sound like you're taking this all very personally. Take a  and understand it's all respectful music banter.

You know good and well what you're doing. There's nothing respectful about the nonstop harassment you've given me ever since I signed up, and accusing me of being a troll. Bosk and Hef have also recently warned against derailing threads with irrelevant tangents, specifically MP bashing. There's also nothing respectful about criticizing MP every chance you get. We get it, you prefer Mangini. Can we move the fuck on now?

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I mean...to say any of this is "harassment" is a bit rich. Do as you will.

[Dedalus]

Nah, I'm not mad, at all, and I'm not disagreeing (or agreeing for that matter) with Mike.  I just differ in that I give people the benefit of the doubt, I guess, and acknowledge that there are no absolutes.  People are allowed to change and revisit things in their life.  I also said "if a woman cheats on me, she's done, no questions asked, fuck her".  Then when put in that position, with kids on the line and everything else, all my tough guy words went right out the window and that wasn't what ended our marriage.  And I'd make the exact same decision again if I had the chance.  He probably meant what he said, no doubt.  I think with all that's been done and said in the intervening years, if you put Mike in a room and said "learn The Astonishing or we demolish all of America west of the Mississippi, I'd like to think he'd give it the ol' college try, you know what I mean? 

As old Stadler would say: you have no proof of that. 

I just brought up what the MP himself has already said about it. After all, we are constantly criticized for speculating too much, for making generalizations, for making hypotheses. Well, in this specific case we have a quote from the golden boy himself. So I think it is relevant, although I understand the argument you are making.

[HOF]

I can't think of a sillier issue to get hung up on than whether MP can recreate MM's parts note for note live (or if it matters if he can't). It would definitely be less interesting if he did anyway, IMO.

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

I can't think of a sillier issue to get hung up on than whether MP can recreate MM's parts note for note live (or if it matters if he can't). It would definitely be less interesting if he did anyway, IMO.

Agreed, 100%

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

Look I'll be the first to say we should take him at his word, and I do. He acknowledged there are likely ("maybe" was his word) things that Mangini can do he can't. Fair. That's for him to decide.  I just think we should afford people the grace to also re-evaluate where they stand; otherwise there is no growth, is there?

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[gmillerdrake]

I can't think of a sillier issue to get hung up on than whether MP can recreate MM's parts note for note live (or if it matters if he can't). It would definitely be less interesting if he did anyway, IMO.

Since I kind of started this whole thing I think this is something I want to clarify. I'm not hung up on whether MP can create MM's parts note for note.....and agree he shouldn't.

Their styles are different and one is not better than the other. They're both incredible drummers. My initial post was more an ode to what MM did on TA's album. It's a masterpiece from start to finish. All the other complaints and issues with that album aside...the drum parts are insane and so well-crafted and executed for THAT album.

All things being equal...I don't believe that MP at this stage of his career would or does put the level of effort into practicing and continuing to improve...and he's all but admitted that....which led me to speculate and believe that MP couldn't play those parts (note for note) I think he could play those songs and that album just fine, probably would sound great....but I just don't see him being able to pull off what MM pulled off given his history of taking holidays from what's on the album and just playing parts that are 'close enough' live. Again, there's nothing wrong with that and that is a trait that most of us love about MP...it's not a negative thing!!

These shows we're seeing from DT really drive home what was missing in the MM era. MM is technically perfect in every aspect but the 'soul' and 'spirit' of the music just isn't/wasn't there....a good example to compare would be Budakon Trial of Tears vs 4th Wall Trial of Tears. Both great performances but I take Budakons every day and twice on Sunday because although 4th Walls is executed perfectly, MM's effort is very stiff and by the numbers, technically perfect... wheras MP's Budakon version is so poetic and fluid.

[Stadler]

Since I kind of started this whole thing I think this is something I want to clarify. I'm not hung up on whether MP can create MM's parts note for note.....and agree he shouldn't.

Their styles are different and one is not better than the other. They're both incredible drummers. My initial post was more an ode to what MM did on TA's album. It's a masterpiece from start to finish. All the other complaints and issues with that album aside...the drum parts are insane and so well-crafted and executed for THAT album.

All things being equal...I don't believe that MP at this stage of his career would or does put the level of effort into practicing and continuing to improve...and he's all but admitted that....which led me to speculate and believe that MP couldn't play those parts (note for note) I think he could play those songs and that album just fine, probably would sound great....but I just don't see him being able to pull off what MM pulled off given his history of taking holidays from what's on the album and just playing parts that are 'close enough' live. Again, there's nothing wrong with that and that is a trait that most of us love about MP...it's not a negative thing!!

These shows we're seeing from DT really drive home what was missing in the MM era. MM is technically perfect in every aspect but the 'soul' and 'spirit' of the music just isn't/wasn't there....a good example to compare would be Budakon Trial of Tears vs 4th Wall Trial of Tears. Both great performances but I take Budakons every day and twice on Sunday because although 4th Walls is executed perfectly, MM's effort is very stiff and by the numbers, technically perfect... wheras MP's Budakon version is so poetic and fluid.

Just to be clear, Gary, he said he doesn't practice in the traditional sense (i.e. drills, etc.). I don't believe he ever said he wasn't into "improving"; I took what he said to mean that he is simply at a level where his improvement - however he wants to measure it - is accomplished in different ways. I just took it that drumming as Olympic sport was something that he had moved away from; I know he's also expressed often the amount of growth he's experienced as a musician playing with Mr. Morse, for one.  That can also be seen as "practicing" and "improving" even if it doesn't change his 0-60 speed on the quarter mile.

I can relate; what I do - or don't do - to improve my skills at work are not the same as the things I did when I was in law school or just starting out after.

[gmillerdrake]

Just to be clear, Gary, he said he doesn't practice in the traditional sense (i.e. drills, etc.). I don't believe he ever said he wasn't into "improving"; I took what he said to mean that he is simply at a level where his improvement - however he wants to measure it - is accomplished in different ways. I just took it that drumming as Olympic sport was something that he had moved away from; I know he's also expressed often the amount of growth he's experienced as a musician playing with Mr. Morse, for one.  That can also be seen as "practicing" and "improving" even if it doesn't change his 0-60 speed on the quarter mile.

I can relate; what I do - or don't do - to improve my skills at work are not the same as the things I did when I was in law school or just starting out after.

MP has a natural ability to just 'play'. While I'm sure when he was younger he was putting in 26 hours a day practicing and jamming....he's at a point now of expertise with that craft that he can just play and it all sounds good. He can still play technical stuff....he can just jam...he can and does do it all. And he does it on stage in manner in which he mesmerizes you and just takes your focus...he's a true entertainer. I'm not doubting MP....I love MP

I just believe **at this moment in time** MM has a leg up on him when it comes to simple 'technical' ability and that is 100% due to the fact that every video and post or whatever you see from MM he is practicing and developing etc etc .MP isn't doing that. MP doesn't really need to do that....but MM does need to do that. I think it's part of his personality and who he is. He teaches all these clinics and classes so he 'has' to stay on top of it in the manner that he does.

[Stadler]

Can't argue with that.

[TheCountOfNYC]

MM is also clearly a more natural teacher than MP. He held a teaching position at Berklee before going DT, while MP insisted on his son Max getting a private drum teacher instead of teaching Max himself. Watching MM's videos, it's clear that the intent is to educate, even with videos that aren't explicitly labeled as such.

[Schurftkut]

MP did make a name for himself doing clinics and his two drum instruction videos back in the 90s, MM is more thinking like a scientist, mike more like the rocker.

[ReaperKK]

Our New World is probably the only song from The Astonishing that has any shot of ever being played live again.

They should play it. It's one of the best songs DT has written in the past 20 years IMO.

[DoctorAction]

I didn't think we'll ever hear a beat of TA again. (Which suits me just fine.) I think they're all probably proud enough of it. Just that it was unpopular/divisive.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

MM is also clearly a more natural teacher than MP. He held a teaching position at Berklee before going DT, while MP insisted on his son Max getting a private drum teacher instead of teaching Max himself. Watching MM's videos, it's clear that the intent is to educate, even with videos that aren't explicitly labeled as such.

That's a good point. They both have instructional material but aside from the difference in volume and frequency, you can really understand how different their approaches are by listening to how they talk about what they're playing. Mangini is truly a student of the instrument - similar to how one might describe a football player as a student of the game - and I find he explains the what and why really well.

[Tyrannosaurus Chicken]

Can we get this thread back on track? Anybody have any good videos from recent shows?

[EPIC Outro]

I have no doubt DT will break out Astonishing tracks again someday. Sure, they have been dormant for awhile. But how long has it been since they played something from WDADU? Yet does anyone really think they will never play something from that album again?

[HOF]

Just listened to The Looking Glass again for the first time in a while (probably my favorite MM track), and that's one that I think MP would shine on.

To me the appeal of MP playing a MM track would mostly be to hear how that track might have sounded if he had played on it in the first place, but that's easier for me to say without having any real investment in the MM era.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed but has anyone here noticed this in This is the Life from the O2?

One of the commenters points out around 4:10  and asks 'auto tune?' If you listen to the word 'gone' there appears to be an audio artifact that occurs on the word. Sounds like a rapid unnatural change in tone and pitch. It's audible in the other videos of the same show as well so it can't be the guy's phone.

https://youtu.be/29OaC337BNk?si=fpe1zp4wrnDidKty

[YngVai]

I would give more credence to that theory if it weren't for all the tuning issues on either side of that moment. James has had some killer moments on recent recordings I've heard, that's just not one of them 

[nobloodyname]

It's present in Roderica's video, too: https://youtu.be/qlFnv3UZWuI?si=TEA0NRiGRRGkYj-h&t=1160

I'm pretty sure it's not autotune, though, for the reason YngVai outlines.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

What could it realistically be though?

Is it possible they were just using it lightly or only here and there - experimenting? - with it? I have no idea how the technology works but I know you can use it live. It got me thinking about the way a lot of fans are marveling at how he has suddenly appeared to sound rejuvenated after the earliest show.

[wolfking]

Just sounds like a crack in his voice.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Just sounds like a crack in his voice.

I dunno, maybe but for a crack it sounds very unnatural for his voice to so suddenly and perfectly change pitch like that, even more pronounced in the second video posted.

If they are using auto tune a little I'd be totally fine with it if it means he's sounding better on stage. I remember on the last tour there was some controversy about tracks being piped in and he actually addressed it. Small things to help the performance are fine in my book.

[WilliamMunny]

Yeah, I'm team 'crack in his voice' on this one.