DT Songs Countdown

[pg1067]

Kev's original countdown began in late December 2021 and wrapped up in February 2022.

What does everyone think about revisiting this?

When Kev did the original, I didn't really know it was happening, and it was the first of the countdowns, so I didn't participate.  Looks like only 26 people participated, so I'd bet there are others who also didn't.

Also, songs from A View were excluded.

So...let me know what you think.  Would you participate?  Were there any things to be done differently (given that it was the first one)?

By the way, my inclination is not to include any NOMAC tracks and to limit the non-album songs.  I did a quick perusal of the top 100, and it looks like Raise the Knife and To Live Forever were the only non-album tracks that made it into the top 100.  I definitely would not include any of the live-only tracks (e.g., Moon Bubbles and Barfbag), but I'd probably include the Majesty demos and the FII reject songs (along with TLF, DLPM and Eve).  And, as Kev did, SDOIT and ITPOE would each be a single song.  Let me know what you think in this regard.

I'm not committing to do this, but just putting out feelers.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm down.

Although I like a lot the non-album tracks, I would be inclined to make it studio album tracks only.  The only non-album track to maintain any relevance has been To Live Forever, despite my love for the rest of them.

I would also be inclined NOT to include the Majesty demos.  They just aren't very good.

But that's just me.  I will participate regardless of how you run it.

[bosk1]

I'd participate.

[nobloodyname]

I'm definitely up for it. But I'd split Six Degrees and In the Presence of Enemies per the albums.

[bosk1]

Six Degrees isn't "split."  It just has track markers in case people want to listen to only certain movements of the song.

[TAC]

I'd be in, Paul!

[Lonk]

I'll be ok with this.

[Jamesman42]

I'm down, it'll force me to listen to the last 3 (or 4) albums a little more.

I think splitting SDOIT makes sense. While it is technically one song, it's presented as 8 different ideas with their own track listing.

[romdrums]

I'm in. I'd probably have to redo my list to take out the non-album tracks.

[Dave_Manchester]

I'd certainly participate, and if it goes ahead I'd recommend posting a notice in the general music forum, because I think a lot of folk don't check the DT part of the forum unless there's an album coming.

[pg1067]

Regarding SDOIT and ITPOE:

SDOIT has never felt like a single song to me.  My inclination would be to split it (as I did with A Pleasant Shade of Gray when I did the Fates Warning Countdown).  The only reason I would keep it as a single song would be to follow what Kev did with the original countdown.  I'm open to all opinions.

ITPOE, on the other hand, has always felt like a single song, despite the say it was split on the album.  I feel less strongly about this one since I don't rate it as highly.  Again, open to all opinions.

And I'm totally down with excluding the Majesty demos.  I assume a few people would include some of them, but they obviously didn't get enough votes in the original countdown to crack the top 100, so I don't see that it will matter.

Given that TLH and RTK both got enough votes to land in the top 100 (and I think RTK was in the top 75), I think they have to be included.  And, if we include them, I feel like we have to include the rest of the FII rejects.

I'll let this thread percolate through the rest of the week and make a decision over the weekend.

[Setlist Scotty]

By the way, my inclination is not to include any NOMAC tracks and to limit the non-album songs.  I did a quick perusal of the top 100, and it looks like Raise the Knife and To Live Forever were the only non-album tracks that made it into the top 100.  I definitely would not include any of the live-only tracks (e.g., Moon Bubbles and Barfbag), but I'd probably include the Majesty demos and the FII reject songs (along with TLF, DLPM and Eve).  And, as Kev did, SDOIT and ITPOE would each be a single song.  Let me know what you think in this regard.

I'm game. Only thing I would take issue with is limiting the non-album tracks. If you want to discard the NOMAC tracks as well as stupid joke tracks like "Mike Thinks He's Dee Dee Ramone Introducing a Song Song," that's fine, but other than that, why should all the other tracks be excluded? I know I had several of them in my list, and I still plan to and it appears there are several others that like them too, even if few of them ultimate make the top 100. By that reasoning, You Not Me should automatically be thrown out because it's a given that it will be towards the bottom. OTOH, Bombay Vindaloo is killer and is much better than a good chunk of DT's songs, IMO. Same with Barfbag and some of the other non-album tracks.

[Cool Chris]

I will probably be down for this. I had a couple small issues with Kev's rules on the last one, but realize they were "me" issues.

1) I think the list should consist of obtainable officially released songs. This would rule out songs like Barfbag, which was never officially released, and Don't Look Past Me, which (I believe?) was only released on a Fan Club CD. It gets tricky with a song like Eve, which was released as a B-side. So it was an official release, despite it not feeling like one. The FII demos (or rejects) were also officially released by the band, and obtainable, so by my standard they should qualify, even if I feel like they shouldn't. Same with the other demos, like To Live Forever, which also, sadly, appears on official live releases. Which brings me to #2.

2) Kev said we could consider any version of a song in our rankings. I only considered the album version of each song. For me, it felt wrong to judge a song based on a live recording of a song when I was trying to rank it along with studio recordings/releases. Again, maybe a me issue.

[Jamesman42]

These odd songs and things we're talking about will most likely get shaken out by everyone ranking things anyway.

I think using a live version as your basis for ranking is fine. But to argue against my own statement, let's say I rate Hollow years from LaB highly, but the album version pretty low, someone else ranking might be only thinking of the studio version.

[Cool Chris]

I think using a live version as your basis for ranking is fine. But to argue against my own statement, let's say I rate Hollow years from LaB highly, but the album version pretty low, someone else ranking might be only thinking of the studio version.

That may be the only song where this impact is significant, but I seem to recall multiple people saying they ranked it where they did based on the LaB version. Just felt like we were comparing apples and oranges.

[Revenge319]

I'd be interested! I love ranking things, and I'm probably overdue to go through Dream Theater's discography again.

[Ben_Jamin]

I am completely down for this again.

By the way, my inclination is not to include any NOMAC tracks and to limit the non-album songs.  I did a quick perusal of the top 100, and it looks like Raise the Knife and To Live Forever were the only non-album tracks that made it into the top 100.  I definitely would not include any of the live-only tracks (e.g., Moon Bubbles and Barfbag), but I'd probably include the Majesty demos and the FII reject songs (along with TLF, DLPM and Eve).  And, as Kev did, SDOIT and ITPOE would each be a single song.  Let me know what you think in this regard.

I'm game. Only thing I would take issue with is limiting the non-album tracks. If you want to discard the NOMAC tracks as well as stupid joke tracks like "Mike Thinks He's Dee Dee Ramone Introducing a Song Song," that's fine, but other than that, why should all the other tracks be excluded? I know I had several of them in my list, and I still plan to and it appears there are several others that like them too, even if few of them ultimate make the top 100. By that reasoning, You Not Me should automatically be thrown out because it's a given that it will be towards the bottom. OTOH, Bombay Vindaloo is killer and is much better than a good chunk of DT's songs, IMO. Same with Barfbag and some of the other non-album tracks.

The thing I would say about Bombay Vindaloo is that it was released on an official live album.

But, IMHO, I say let all the songs be up for ranking. If people like them then why not. Like Jamesman said, these songs won't likely even make the main countdown regardless, but It's also neat to see others' rankings even if they included these rare songs.

[wolfking]

Yeah I'd be down for this again.

[WilliamMunny]

I'm in.

[Trav]

I didn't have time to do the last, so I'm up for it.

[Stadler]

By the way, my inclination is not to include any NOMAC tracks and to limit the non-album songs.  I did a quick perusal of the top 100, and it looks like Raise the Knife and To Live Forever were the only non-album tracks that made it into the top 100.  I definitely would not include any of the live-only tracks (e.g., Moon Bubbles and Barfbag), but I'd probably include the Majesty demos and the FII reject songs (along with TLF, DLPM and Eve).  And, as Kev did, SDOIT and ITPOE would each be a single song.  Let me know what you think in this regard.

I'm game. Only thing I would take issue with is limiting the non-album tracks. If you want to discard the NOMAC tracks as well as stupid joke tracks like "Mike Thinks He's Dee Dee Ramone Introducing a Song Song," that's fine, but other than that, why should all the other tracks be excluded? I know I had several of them in my list, and I still plan to and it appears there are several others that like them too, even if few of them ultimate make the top 100. By that reasoning, You Not Me should automatically be thrown out because it's a given that it will be towards the bottom. OTOH, Bombay Vindaloo is killer and is much better than a good chunk of DT's songs, IMO. Same with Barfbag and some of the other non-album tracks.

I with Scotty 100%.  "Cover My Eyes" is possibly my favorite DT song of all time, and TLF will almost certainly be in the top ten, and I don't think either should be excluded arbitrarily.  I'm okay with excluding the Majesty demos, but if it's a stand-alone song by DT, I think it should be on the list.  It shouldn't increase the work of the person collating the list even a little bit, and I'm very against sort of "gaming" the outcome because it is assumed it won't make the cut.

The whole point is that there are new people and presumably the list MIGHT be different as a result.

[jeff_kinsley]

Why not a March Madness/bracket kinda thing?

[Stadler]

Why not a March Madness/bracket kinda thing?

Welcome to the group!

But, respect, I'd rather do the countdown.  For someone like me, who doesn't exactly march to the same drummer as most here - well, that's a bad analogy, because I'm a big Portnoy fan - I'm not really interested in seeing all the songs I'm vested in being crapped out in the first round because of their seeding.

[TAC]

Why not a March Madness/bracket kinda thing?

Welcome to the group!

But, respect, I'd rather do the countdown.  For someone like me, who doesn't exactly march to the same drummer as most here - well, that's a bad analogy, because I'm a big Portnoy fan - I'm not really interested in seeing all the songs I'm vested in being crapped out in the first round because of their seeding.

You'd just prefer to see them not make the list at all? 

[Stadler]

Why not a March Madness/bracket kinda thing?

Welcome to the group!

But, respect, I'd rather do the countdown.  For someone like me, who doesn't exactly march to the same drummer as most here - well, that's a bad analogy, because I'm a big Portnoy fan - I'm not really interested in seeing all the songs I'm vested in being crapped out in the first round because of their seeding.

You'd just prefer to see them not make the list at all? 

Well, there's that, but at least I have the first third of the list to wait in anticipation before I post my rant about all the songs that didn't make it. 

[Lonk]

Why not a March Madness/bracket kinda thing?

Welcome to the group!

But, respect, I'd rather do the countdown.  For someone like me, who doesn't exactly march to the same drummer as most here - well, that's a bad analogy, because I'm a big Portnoy fan - I'm not really interested in seeing all the songs I'm vested in being crapped out in the first round because of their seeding.

That would be similar to the survivor polls

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=56946.0

[Wim Kruithof]

Surely I'm in again, my list would have multiple changes.

I would rank individual songs the Dream Theater way... when they split up Six Degrees and In the Presence of Enemies, so should we. And I wouldn't eliminate a single song... if it is good enough, it will make the top 100 nevertheless...

[pg1067]

Why not a March Madness/bracket kinda thing?

It might be that a bracket challenge would be easier to run, but I'd have to come up with seedings, and the last thing I want is to have folks bitch at me about Lines in the Sand (for example) being a 10 seed instead of a 7 seed or whining that I left Redemption and most of the songs from The Astonishing off the 128-song bracket, etc.

The countdown format is something that another forum member came up with and has done several times (as have I and a couple others) over the past two years.  It's worked quite well, and it usually sparks a lot of good/fun discussion about the merits of each song (as opposed to a Song X versus Song Y thing).

[Setlist Scotty]

I would rank individual songs the Dream Theater way... when they split up Six Degrees and In the Presence of Enemies, so should we.

The "Dream Theater way" is considering both ItPoE and SDoIT as single songs. The only reason why SDoIT is broken up into different tracks was because MP realized that it would be a pain to find specific parts of the song (that's singular) if it was all just one track. With ItPoE, the only reason why it's split up into 2 parts is because MP wanted to use the epic to bookend SC. If you notice on both live releases where those songs are played in full, they are both indexed as single tracks on the CD.

If you're going to argue "well it should be separate parts", then ItPoE should be 6 different parts, not 2. Likewise ACoS should be 7 parts, AVFtTotW should be 3 parts, 8v and IT should each be 5 parts. In fact, even ToT should be 3 parts. Same with FAS. Oh and we can't forget all 5 tracks of the 12 Step Suite which each have separate named sections... So no, let's go the way Dream Theater themselves say they are: each epic is a single song regardless of whether it is indexed into separate tracks or named parts, or not.

[Wim Kruithof]

Interesting take Scotty... in which you're probably right.

[Stadler]

Why not a March Madness/bracket kinda thing?

It might be that a bracket challenge would be easier to run, but I'd have to come up with seedings, and the last thing I want is to have folks bitch at me about Lines in the Sand (for example) being a 10 seed instead of a 7 seed or whining that I left Redemption and most of the songs from The Astonishing off the 128-song bracket, etc.

The countdown format is something that another forum member came up with and has done several times (as have I and a couple others) over the past two years.  It's worked quite well, and it usually sparks a lot of good/fun discussion about the merits of each song (as opposed to a Song X versus Song Y thing).

Lines In The Sand is a 10th seed?  It should be a lot lower than that!!!

[ReaperKK]

I'd be down to participate. I can't even remember if sent a list the first go around

[TAC]

Interesting take Scotty... in which you're probably right.

Scotty is always right. Unless he's praising Power Windows.

[MirrorMask]

I would be in, if only I'd knew what exactly doing a form countdown involves 

[pg1067]

I would be in, if only I'd knew what exactly doing a form countdown involves 

In a nutshell, it would involve you sending me a PM with your top 100 DT songs in order.  I would compile everyone's lists and reveal the composite top 100 at the rate of 1-3 songs per day.  Everyone then posts comments like, "Oh my God... I can't believe Song X isn't higher/lower and/or that Song X is ranked higher/lower than Song Y and/or that Song Z didn't make the list!!!"

Here's a link to the OG countdown thread so you can see how it went in the past:  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=57087.0