DT Songs Countdown

[gzarruk]

I think I'm in

[bosk1]

Well, respectfully, there's a bit more to it than that.  You also have to respond in a way that is totally indignant and incredulous that others didn't agree with your specific ranking and, hopefully, leads to a side discussion lasting several pages about what "objective vs. subjective" means.  If we're going to do this thread, we can't just do it halfway and not put in the effort.

[hefdaddy42]

Well, respectfully, there's a bit more to it than that.  You also have to respond in a way that is totally indignant and incredulous that others didn't agree with your specific ranking and, hopefully, leads to a side discussion lasting several pages about what "objective vs. subjective" means.  If we're going to do this thread, we can't just do it halfway and not put in the effort.

[devieira73]

I would like to participate, but I think a Top 100 a bit too much. A Top 50 would be more enjoyable.

[Stadler]

Well, respectfully, there's a bit more to it than that.  You also have to respond in a way that is totally indignant and incredulous that others didn't agree with your specific ranking and, hopefully, leads to a side discussion lasting several pages about what "objective vs. subjective" means.  If we're going to do this thread, we can't just do it halfway and not put in the effort.

I already have my response written for why you all are idiots for not having "Cover My Eyes" in your top ten.  Can't wait!!!!

[hefdaddy42]

Well, respectfully, there's a bit more to it than that.  You also have to respond in a way that is totally indignant and incredulous that others didn't agree with your specific ranking and, hopefully, leads to a side discussion lasting several pages about what "objective vs. subjective" means.  If we're going to do this thread, we can't just do it halfway and not put in the effort.

I already have my response written for why you all are idiots for not having "Cover My Eyes" in your top ten.  Can't wait!!!!

[TAC]

Well, respectfully, there's a bit more to it than that.  You also have to respond in a way that is totally indignant and incredulous that others didn't agree with your specific ranking and, hopefully, leads to a side discussion lasting several pages about what "objective vs. subjective" means.  If we're going to do this thread, we can't just do it halfway and not put in the effort.

I already have my response written for why you all are idiots for not having "Cover My Eyes" in your top ten.  Can't wait!!!!

I believe it's called Cover My Ears.

[hefdaddy42]

So, has a decision yet been made on whether this is actually going to happen?  I don't want to spend the time crafting my list if it isn't going to happen.  Because unlike 90% of the users here, I don't have a list and ranking fetish.

[pg1067]

Well, respectfully, there's a bit more to it than that.  You also have to respond in a way that is totally indignant and incredulous that others didn't agree with your specific ranking and, hopefully, leads to a side discussion lasting several pages about what "objective vs. subjective" means.  If we're going to do this thread, we can't just do it halfway and not put in the effort.

I already have my response written for why you all are idiots for not having "Cover My Eyes" in your top ten.  Can't wait!!!!

I believe it's called Cover My Ears.

[pg1067]

I would like to participate, but I think a Top 100 a bit too much. A Top 50 would be more enjoyable.

Well...50 is less work.  However, given that the original countdown was 100 and bands like Rush and Maiden had 75, I kinda think the namesake band of the forum deserves 100.  But, if others don't want to do the full 100....

[faizoff]

I think I will participate in this. Should be really fun.

I know it's been talked already but SDOIT to me has never felt like one single track, yes I know it was meant to be that way and all other legitimate reasons. But in my mind I always think of them as 8 different songs.

[Stadler]

I would like to participate, but I think a Top 100 a bit too much. A Top 50 would be more enjoyable.

Well...50 is less work.  However, given that the original countdown was 100 and bands like Rush and Maiden had 75, I kinda think the namesake band of the forum deserves 100.  But, if others don't want to do the full 100....

I'm giving you 100.  In fact, I am rating all the songs, because I want to be able to talk about the "bottom 10" too. 

[hefdaddy42]

I would like to participate, but I think a Top 100 a bit too much. A Top 50 would be more enjoyable.

Well...50 is less work.  However, given that the original countdown was 100 and bands like Rush and Maiden had 75, I kinda think the namesake band of the forum deserves 100.  But, if others don't want to do the full 100....

Sounds legit to me.  I don't see any reason that it shouldn't be 100.

[Lonk]

Yeah, while it's more time consuming, 100 worked well last time

[Jamesman42]

I would rank individual songs the Dream Theater way... when they split up Six Degrees and In the Presence of Enemies, so should we.

The "Dream Theater way" is considering both ItPoE and SDoIT as single songs. The only reason why SDoIT is broken up into different tracks was because MP realized that it would be a pain to find specific parts of the song (that's singular) if it was all just one track. With ItPoE, the only reason why it's split up into 2 parts is because MP wanted to use the epic to bookend SC. If you notice on both live releases where those songs are played in full, they are both indexed as single tracks on the CD.

If you're going to argue "well it should be separate parts", then ItPoE should be 6 different parts, not 2. Likewise ACoS should be 7 parts, AVFtTotW should be 3 parts, 8v and IT should each be 5 parts. In fact, even ToT should be 3 parts. Same with FAS. Oh and we can't forget all 5 tracks of the 12 Step Suite which each have separate named sections... So no, let's go the way Dream Theater themselves say they are: each epic is a single song regardless of whether it is indexed into separate tracks or named parts, or not.

Good point.

How about Top 100 DT tracks as the name. Breaks up SDOIT, you keep ITPOE separate (which I don't see a problem with, never listened to it as a single song), keeps ACOS and other songs with movements intact.

[bosk1]

Well, if we are going to arbitrarily break up songs, that seems silly to me, so I won't vote.  I can't really rate parts of songs against entire songs.  Not sure why anyone would want to do that.

[Wim Kruithof]

100 surely will do.

[devieira73]

I would like to participate, but I think a Top 100 a bit too much. A Top 50 would be more enjoyable.

Well...50 is less work.  However, given that the original countdown was 100 and bands like Rush and Maiden had 75, I kinda think the namesake band of the forum deserves 100.  But, if others don't want to do the full 100....

I also think it's totally fair to DT, I see your point. Maybe it's just me with some fatigue after participating in a lot of countdowns. I can't guarantee, but I'll try to make my list anyway.

[Jamesman42]

Well, if we are going to arbitrarily break up songs, that seems silly to me, so I won't vote.  I can't really rate parts of songs against entire songs.  Not sure why anyone would want to do that.

That's why I said rate them as tracks, not songs.

[Cool Chris]

100 songs wouldn't be my preference, but using the ranking engine makes it tolerable, and DT might be the only band where I legitimately enjoy 100+ of their songs.

[Setlist Scotty]

Well, if we are going to arbitrarily break up songs, that seems silly to me, so I won't vote.  I can't really rate parts of songs against entire songs.  Not sure why anyone would want to do that.

That's why I said rate them as tracks, not songs.

Right, but this is a "Song Countdown", not a "Track Countdown".

100 songs wouldn't be my preference, but using the ranking engine makes it tolerable, and DT might be the only band where I legitimately enjoy 100+ of their songs.

One of the things that might help make it even easier to do with ranking, even using the ranking engine, is to break the songs up into groups. There's songs that you absolutely love, so they can be in one group; songs that you like that can be another group; songs that are OK can be a third group; songs that you don't really enjoy can be a fourth group; and songs you absolutely hate can be a last group. Or something to that effect. To me it makes it much easier than trying to rank 100+ songs to come up with a list.

[Jamesman42]

Well, if we are going to arbitrarily break up songs, that seems silly to me, so I won't vote.  I can't really rate parts of songs against entire songs.  Not sure why anyone would want to do that.

That's why I said rate them as tracks, not songs.

Right, but this is a "Song Countdown", not a "Track Countdown".

Why not make it a track countdown, though? While the DT community acknowledges SDOIT is one song, most (if not all) people are thinking about each movement as a song anyway.

[Cool Chris]

100 songs wouldn't be my preference, but using the ranking engine makes it tolerable, and DT might be the only band where I legitimately enjoy 100+ of their songs.

One of the things that might help make it even easier to do with ranking, even using the ranking engine, is to break the songs up into groups. There's songs that you absolutely love, so they can be in one group; songs that you like that can be another group; songs that are OK can be a third group; songs that you don't really enjoy can be a fourth group; and songs you absolutely hate can be a last group. Or something to that effect. To me it makes it much easier than trying to rank 100+ songs to come up with a list.

Yes, I eventually figured out to do this, and cannot imagine doing it any other way now. Makes the process efficient, and seeing those A-tier song match-ups are fun!

[Setlist Scotty]

Well, if we are going to arbitrarily break up songs, that seems silly to me, so I won't vote.  I can't really rate parts of songs against entire songs.  Not sure why anyone would want to do that.

That's why I said rate them as tracks, not songs.

Right, but this is a "Song Countdown", not a "Track Countdown".

Why not make it a track countdown, though? While the DT community acknowledges SDOIT is one song, most (if not all) people are thinking about each movement as a song anyway.

I don't know if "most" of the fan base think SDoIT is 8 songs as opposed to one. I go by what the band says, which I think should be the basis for this countdown (assuming it happens). Besides, what if I happened to like only part of one of the other epics, but not the whole thing? Why should I have to decide how to rate that epic as a whole, as opposed to SDoIT or ItPoE which (by your preference) would be split up into different parts? Doesn't seem fair that distinctions are made for those two tracks and not the others.

[Dave_Manchester]

Just chiming in to say that I'm perfectly happy with a 100-song countdown rather than 50 or 75 (even 100 will leave me with some tough choices of which songs to leave off the list). Any chance to contrive it so that the top 3 are revealed at 6 o clock on Christmas morning?

[hefdaddy42]

Well, if we are going to arbitrarily break up songs, that seems silly to me, so I won't vote.  I can't really rate parts of songs against entire songs.  Not sure why anyone would want to do that.

That's why I said rate them as tracks, not songs.

Right, but this is a "Song Countdown", not a "Track Countdown".

Why not make it a track countdown, though? While the DT community acknowledges SDOIT is one song, most (if not all) people are thinking about each movement as a song anyway.

Because.  Calling it a "track countdown" is just silly.  Who does that?

[Puppies_On_Acid]

I'd definitely participate in this. I missed the one Kev did because I rarely visit this side of the forums.

Also on the subject of splitting up epics into their individual parts.....just no. This includes SDoIT and ItPoE. They are considered one song by the band and should be considered so for their ranking.

[pg1067]

It's pretty easy to consider SDOIT as a single song because everything is consecutive.

It's more difficult (IMO) to do that with ITPOE because the two parts are separated by the rest of the album.  Or, stated differently, it seems really easy to regard the two sections of ITPOE as separate songs.

Out of curiosity, has anyone other than MP ever spoken publicly on this issue?  I do wonder if any of the Js really give a rat's ass about this.

[faizoff]

Good question, don't think I've ever heard or read anything about it from anyone but MP.

[Stadler]

If Pink Floyd is any relevance here - the structure of Systematic Chaos resembles that of Wish You Were Here - it's one song.   Pink Floyd did pieces of the whole, and edited it significantly over the years, but I don't recall any time that Floyd acted as if they were separate entities.

[gzarruk]

For the Chaos in Motion tour, and subsequent live release, they played ITPOE in full as one big piece.

On the other hand, there's been numerous times where they've played just one or a couple ACOS sections and not the whole thing, but ACOS still is just one long song.

[Setlist Scotty]

It's pretty easy to consider SDOIT as a single song because everything is consecutive.

It's more difficult (IMO) to do that with ITPOE because the two parts are separated by the rest of the album.  Or, stated differently, it seems really easy to regard the two sections of ITPOE as separate songs.

Out of curiosity, has anyone other than MP ever spoken publicly on this issue?  I do wonder if any of the Js really give a rat's ass about this.

I did a quick check through my archive of interviews, and here's a few comments that I found that all tend to point to it being one song that was split into two parts.

https://www.burnyourears.de/interviews/2181-dream-theater-interview-mit-jordan-rudess-zu-systematic-chaos.html

BYE: Let's talk a little bit about the setlist. On this tour you play some long songs, for example the complete "In The Presence Of Enemies" epic, "The Ministry Of Lost Souls" or the medley at the end. Is it a big challenge to play these long, complex songs? Do you sometimes prefer to play shorter songs?
JR: The long songs are of course a big part of the Dream Theater repertoire, we have some of those in our program. With "In The Presence Of Enemies" we thought we should definitely play that song because it's very fun and cool live. It's a bit challenging, but it's important to us to present it especially on this tour. It's kind of challenging because songs like that take a lot of time and we might not be able to play some other tracks for that reason, but that's the way it is....

http://www.fiveeightforums.com/for-those-interested-heres-my-interview-with-john-petrucci-t38398/index.html?p=774135#post774135

FEF: When it comes to making the tracklist, how do you proceed in order to make an album 'flow'?
JP: That's all Mike Portnoy! (smiles) Mike has thoughts on that way before anyone else does. Everyone has input though, it's just that he really likes that sort of stuff. Like, it was his idea to split In The Presence Of Enemies and put one part at the beginning of the album and the other one at the end of it.

Guitar One magazine

GO: Let's talk about the writing on Systematic Chaos. You've gotta love a record with three songs that clock in at over 10 minutes each.
JP: That's what I always say! "In the Presence of Enemies" was the first thing we wrote, and it's more progressive for it, I think. We did that track in its entirety and decided during the recording process to split it into two parts, opening and closing the album.

http://www.rockemgeral.com.br/2007/08/28/dream-theater-quer-voltar-a-tocar-nas-radios-e-na-mtv/

REG: The song "In The Presence Of Enemies" appears in two parts, at the beginning and at the end of the album. Why don't they appear together, one after the other?
Jordan: Originally these two parts were written together as one song, but somewhere along the way, Mike (Portnoy, drummer) was sorting out the ideas on the record behind the album, and thought it would be interesting if we had the two separate parts at the beginning and end of the record.

For the Chaos in Motion tour, and subsequent live release, they played ITPOE in full as one big piece.

On the other hand, there's been numerous times where they've played just one or a couple ACOS sections and not the whole thing, but ACOS still is just one long song.

Exactly. In fact, don't forget that different named parts of ToT and 8v were used for Schmedley Wilcox, but yet both those songs were considered one piece each despite having multiple named sections.

[Jamesman42]

Well, if we are going to arbitrarily break up songs, that seems silly to me, so I won't vote.  I can't really rate parts of songs against entire songs.  Not sure why anyone would want to do that.

That's why I said rate them as tracks, not songs.

Right, but this is a "Song Countdown", not a "Track Countdown".

Why not make it a track countdown, though? While the DT community acknowledges SDOIT is one song, most (if not all) people are thinking about each movement as a song anyway.

Because.  Calling it a "track countdown" is just silly.  Who does that?

No one. I was offering a different take because I don't want to rank SDOIT as one song, honestly. The movements are talked about as songs much more than SDOIT is talked about as one song.

[TAC]

Well, it really is ONE song, but the song as a whole is likely to land about 60 spots lower than where I'd rank Solitary Shell if I could.

[Jamesman42]

I agree that it is one song (never have argued otherwise), but for ranking purposes, it makes more sense to rank the individual tracks since they were separated.

And I would do something similar with SS vs SDOIT.