*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[Ben_Jamin]

There are devices called metronomes which is what the click is.

Never heard of 'em. You're making it up.

The grooves themselves follow the beats of the time signatures and a click does nothing to affect that groove. The tempo does affect the groove and if you speed things up or slows things down just a little bit can have an effect on the groove and it will make the songs, the pockets, the rhythms have less of an impact.

You're using the noun "grooves" there instead of "beats" or "rhythms". I said that no click would make it more "groovy/feely". What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:

The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.

Peoples expectations for bands are hilarious at times.

It's not an expectation, I just thought it would be a cool thing.

I understand it's not an expectation, that's was just in general to the why's of peoples listening habits.

I hear those things regardless if a band uses a click or not. But usually, that is tempo change as the music itself as written doesn't change. Tempo is the feel of the song. Then there's beats which are what give the song the feel of swing, waltz, March, the style it's in.

You can also not utilize the click to play in a free tempo. Where there is no set tempo, and the song changed tempos a lot.

But if you want to get that certain time signature down and utilize that to create a melody within that tempo. That's what clicks can be helpful in keeping time with whatever crazy ass rhythm and grove the drummer decides to utilize in his drumming compositions.

I understand what you mean by groove/feel and a click doesn't affect it whatsoever. It can actually enhance it by keeping the tempo at a certain pace to keep that feel/groove. Reggae is a big example of a genre that has a set tempo, and the sub-genres within are defined by their beat placement, tempo, and groove/feel.


I actually think A View is one of Dream Theaters grooviest albums. And all you need to hear this is how JM is in pocket with Manginis bass drums and just Manginis groove/feel.

[hefdaddy42]

What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:

The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.

Dream Theater aren't prevented from doing any of those things in recordings, and a click track wouldn't prevent it either.  If they wanted those things to occur, they would occur.  The click is not a shackle, it's a tool.

[faizoff]

Not sure where to put this John Petrucci came on a podcast with Machine Head's Rob Flynn and John was talking about the story of picking a new band name after they found out that Majesty was taken. He said they were out of ideas and at one point jokingly thought of naming their band 'Glasser' after their attorney.

Not sure if that's the same Glasser that posts here and has this story been told before? If not that's super cool!

Here's the podcast with the timestamp

[ReaPsTA]

What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:

The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.

Dream Theater aren't prevented from doing any of those things in recordings, and a click track wouldn't prevent it either.  If they wanted those things to occur, they would occur.  The click is not a shackle, it's a tool.

Would mostly agree but a couple of counter-points:

- In the verse riff of Master of Puppets, it goes like dundundundundundundundundundundundund BWAH BWAH. Those two big guitar chugs completely break the time signature/tempo of the verse and I'm not sure there's any real way to put them in a click track
- I think this was done in a Rick Beato video - He ran Bonham's drums from Fool in the Rain through a quantizer and suddenly it was like all the life was gone from them. Maybe Zeppelin recorded with a metronome and Bonham was just playing a bit behind the groove, but it's the kind of thing that would never get through modern production even though it's one of the greatest drum beats ever

I largely agree that blaming modern music production for music sounding "soulless" is looking for a scapegoat. But click tracks/quantization aren't totally without downside.

[Ben_Jamin]

What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:

The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.

Dream Theater aren't prevented from doing any of those things in recordings, and a click track wouldn't prevent it either.  If they wanted those things to occur, they would occur.  The click is not a shackle, it's a tool.

Would mostly agree but a couple of counter-points:

- In the verse riff of Master of Puppets, it goes like dundundundundundundundundundundundund BWAH BWAH. Those two big guitar chugs completely break the time signature/tempo of the verse and I'm not sure there's any real way to put them in a click track
- I think this was done in a Rick Beato video - He ran Bonham's drums from Fool in the Rain through a quantizer and suddenly it was like all the life was gone from them. Maybe Zeppelin recorded with a metronome and Bonham was just playing a bit behind the groove, but it's the kind of thing that would never get through modern production even though it's one of the greatest drum beats ever

I largely agree that blaming modern music production for music sounding "soulless" is looking for a scapegoat. But click tracks/quantization aren't totally without downside.

Back then they also didn't have the capability to visually see the tempo or the wave file itself. They had to make do with hearing. We also have to wonder if some of these intricacies are not tape splicing intricacies of taping the analogue overdubs together and just being off a slight bit.

[Glasser]

Not sure where to put this John Petrucci came on a podcast with Machine Head's Rob Flynn and John was talking about the story of picking a new band name after they found out that Majesty was taken. He said they were out of ideas and at one point jokingly thought of naming their band 'Glasser' after their attorney.

Not sure if that's the same Glasser that posts here and has this story been told before? If not that's super cool!

Here's the podcast with the timestamp

Yes! MP told me this years ago as well and Gray Matter was also a name they considered, so I chose Glasser as my username 

[Madman Shepherd]

Not sure where to put this John Petrucci came on a podcast with Machine Head's Rob Flynn and John was talking about the story of picking a new band name after they found out that Majesty was taken. He said they were out of ideas and at one point jokingly thought of naming their band 'Glasser' after their attorney.

Not sure if that's the same Glasser that posts here and has this story been told before? If not that's super cool!

Here's the podcast with the timestamp

Yes! MP told me this years ago as well and Gray Matter was also a name they considered, so I chose Glasser as my username 

Nice!

Cool interview too. Robb Flynn has a good, conversational way he conducts his interviews.

[DoctorAction]

There are devices called metronomes which is what the click is.

Never heard of 'em. You're making it up.

The grooves themselves follow the beats of the time signatures and a click does nothing to affect that groove. The tempo does affect the groove and if you speed things up or slows things down just a little bit can have an effect on the groove and it will make the songs, the pockets, the rhythms have less of an impact.

You're using the noun "grooves" there instead of "beats" or "rhythms". I said that no click would make it more "groovy/feely". What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:

The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.

Peoples expectations for bands are hilarious at times.

It's not an expectation, I just thought it would be a cool thing.

I understand what you mean by groove/feel and a click doesn't affect it whatsoever. It can actually enhance it by keeping the tempo at a certain pace to keep that feel/groove. Reggae is a big example of a genre that has a set tempo, and the sub-genres within are defined by their beat placement, tempo, and groove/feel.

No. You're missing it. I said "The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo" - they can't stretch a measure out while playing to a click as nothing after that will line up. They can't deviate from the tempo.

What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:

The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.

Dream Theater aren't prevented from doing any of those things in recordings, and a click track wouldn't prevent it either.  If they wanted those things to occur, they would occur.  The click is not a shackle, it's a tool.

No, DT aren't prevented from doing those things in recordings, if they decide not to use a click. You can't deviate from the tempo when playing to a click.

The click is a tool, but it shackles you to the tempo.

[The Letter M]

There are devices called metronomes which is what the click is.

Never heard of 'em. You're making it up.

The grooves themselves follow the beats of the time signatures and a click does nothing to affect that groove. The tempo does affect the groove and if you speed things up or slows things down just a little bit can have an effect on the groove and it will make the songs, the pockets, the rhythms have less of an impact.

You're using the noun "grooves" there instead of "beats" or "rhythms". I said that no click would make it more "groovy/feely". What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:

The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.

Peoples expectations for bands are hilarious at times.

It's not an expectation, I just thought it would be a cool thing.

I understand what you mean by groove/feel and a click doesn't affect it whatsoever. It can actually enhance it by keeping the tempo at a certain pace to keep that feel/groove. Reggae is a big example of a genre that has a set tempo, and the sub-genres within are defined by their beat placement, tempo, and groove/feel.

No. You're missing it. I said "The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo" - they can't stretch a measure out while playing to a click as nothing after that will line up. They can't deviate from the tempo.

What I'm thinking of is stuff like this:

The click/metronome removes the feel that would be there if the drummer deviated from the tempo by, for example, slowing down a long fill a little to stretch it out, before resuming to (about) the previous tempo, to give that fill more emphasis. Or delaying hitting a bass/crash hit to add more weight. Or coming back in faster after a previous section so the final verse is slightly faster. Or slowing the final passage down a bit so the final epic ending is more epic.

Dream Theater aren't prevented from doing any of those things in recordings, and a click track wouldn't prevent it either.  If they wanted those things to occur, they would occur.  The click is not a shackle, it's a tool.

No, DT aren't prevented from doing those things in recordings, if they decide not to use a click. You can't deviate from the tempo when playing to a click.

The click is a tool, but it shackles you to the tempo.

I feel like you are assuming that bands *have* to use a click track all the way through a song or not at all and that simply isn't the case. They can use the track up to a certain point, then record the ritardando with the rhythm tracks (drums/bass/guitars) and then record the overdubs over them, before settling into the new tempo. They can also punch in new tempo at the end of any measure for a sudden change, but there are programs that can punch in gradual tempo changes over time. And even if those don't work, a band can still play to a click UP TO that point, record the tempo change, then come back in with the new tempo click for the next section.

As far as "deviating from the tempo", I'm not sure why they would need to unless it was a written rit/accel in the music. Otherwise, chances are, they will stay on tempo/in time as the music calls for it. Even then, they're technically proficient enough that they could write a polymetric rhythm over the clicktrack to give the feel of playing out of time but still adhering to the underlying click track.

-Marc.

[DoctorAction]

I feel like you are assuming that bands *have* to use a click track all the way through a song or not at all and that simply isn't the case. They can use the track up to a certain point, then record the ritardando with the rhythm tracks (drums/bass/guitars) and then record the overdubs over them, before settling into the new tempo. They can also punch in new tempo at the end of any measure for a sudden change, but there are programs that can punch in gradual tempo changes over time. And even if those don't work, a band can still play to a click UP TO that point, record the tempo change, then come back in with the new tempo click for the next section.

As far as "deviating from the tempo", I'm not sure why they would need to unless it was a written rit/accel in the music. Otherwise, chances are, they will stay on tempo/in time as the music calls for it. Even then, they're technically proficient enough that they could write a polymetric rhythm over the clicktrack to give the feel of playing out of time but still adhering to the underlying click track.

-Marc.

Sure. Dropping the click and then going rit could be a cool thing.  Or not using a click, then dropping into a section that is set to a click and has a pronounced metronomic style, for example.

They don't don't need to deviate from the tempo, I just think that the natural deviations that would occur from playing without a click would sound and feel better than being shackled to the click. Not a polyrhythm.

This is a massive hunch, but I'm guessing that those of you who have been so repelled by the idea of dropping the click use a click in your own band's recordings, and this feels like a slight against that? If so, it's really not. I record into a DAW to my PC's metronome. It's fine. No prob. But I'd love to hear DT record a studio album without it.

DT can't achieve what I'm proposing while playing to a click as what I want is to hear MM setting the tempo throughout. Anyhoo, anyone who hasn't got what I'm saying by now isn't going to. 

[ReaPsTA]

@DoctorAction - I think you're underrating what having a consistent tempo *does* do to make music feel better. When you setup effects you program them to breathe/pulse with the tempo of the music. If you hear a kick drum and it feels like the whole song is breathing with the kick drum, it's due to that kind of effects programming. If you don't have a consistent tempo this kind of mixing is harder to do because then the effects are at risk of clashing with the rhythm of the music.

Also, for an audio engineer, everything they need to do is easier if they know they can work from a grid. Not just in terms of splicing takes, but automating the volume levels in the mix. I know that professionals can do these rote tasks so quickly it looks like magic, but still no need to waste their time.

The one thing where I do agree with you is I think it's risky to overly-quantize. It gets rid of the little imperfections in the drumming that make it feel human. Not a human example, but I remember Mangini talking about how on DT12 he was trying to play as on-tempo and as evenly as possible for the sake of the recording. I think his playing (in spite of some good beats) suffers on that album as a result. On the new album it feels like he's loosened up a bit and you can feel his energy come through better as a result.

I'll also admit I'm not really interested in recorded music being or feeling spontaneous. The recording studio is an environment where you can achieve perfection through technology and repeated takes. I see no reason not to play to those strengths as much as possible. If I want spontaneity I'll listen to live music (I don't love DT using a click track live for this reason).

Yes there are edge cases that you can't handle with a metronome/quantization, but for 99% of music these tools are fine as long as they are used properly.

Back then they also didn't have the capability to visually see the tempo or the wave file itself. They had to make do with hearing. We also have to wonder if some of these intricacies are not tape splicing intricacies of taping the analogue overdubs together and just being off a slight bit.

I've never heard of something like this happening. The old tape splicers were masters of making things feel natural.

Ironically, this is an area where modern technology has hurt (though no fault of its own). If you do a digital splice improperly you can hear the audio clip, which I don't think was ever an issue with tape. A simple crossfade can solve this issue, but I still hear clips more often than I should (which is never).

[DoctorAction]

@DoctorAction - I think you're underrating what having a consistent tempo *does* do to make music feel better. When you setup effects you program them to breathe/pulse with the tempo of the music. If you hear a kick drum and it feels like the whole song is breathing with the kick drum, it's due to that kind of effects programming. If you don't have a consistent tempo this kind of mixing is harder to do because then the effects are at risk of clashing with the rhythm of the music.

Also, for an audio engineer, everything they need to do is easier if they know they can work from a grid. Not just in terms of splicing takes, but automating the volume levels in the mix. I know that professionals can do these rote tasks so quickly it looks like magic, but still no need to waste their time.

The one thing where I do agree with you is I think it's risky to overly-quantize. It gets rid of the little imperfections in the drumming that make it feel human. Not a human example, but I remember Mangini talking about how on DT12 he was trying to play as on-tempo and as evenly as possible for the sake of the recording. I think his playing (in spite of some good beats) suffers on that album as a result. On the new album it feels like he's loosened up a bit and you can feel his energy come through better as a result.

I'll also admit I'm not really interested in recorded music being or feeling spontaneous. The recording studio is an environment where you can achieve perfection through technology and repeated takes. I see no reason not to play to those strengths as much as possible. If I want spontaneity I'll listen to live music (I don't love DT using a click track live for this reason).

Yes there are edge cases that you can't handle with a metronome/quantization, but for 99% of music these tools are fine as long as they are used properly.

Back then they also didn't have the capability to visually see the tempo or the wave file itself. They had to make do with hearing. We also have to wonder if some of these intricacies are not tape splicing intricacies of taping the analogue overdubs together and just being off a slight bit.

I've never heard of something like this happening. The old tape splicers were masters of making things feel natural.

Ironically, this is an area where modern technology has hurt (though no fault of its own). If you do a digital splice improperly you can hear the audio clip, which I don't think was ever an issue with tape. A simple crossfade can solve this issue, but I still hear clips more often than I should (which is never).

I'd not thought of the effects situation, ReaPsTA. Good shout.

I basically line up with everything you just said (except that I'd like to see it used less to get more of those imperfections in there.)

EDIT: I don't feel strongly about improv but it could be cool. With the new studio at full strength I love the idea of them experimenting with recording techniques.

[the_silent_man]

The title track just gets better every time I listen to it. Love that song, it encapsultes all that is great about DT. The cello/quiet passage is maybe my favourite section of music from them this side of Octavarium.

[darkshade]

You can't deviate from the tempo when playing to a click.

You might want to listen to Frank Zappa's song "A Little Green Rosetta" the last song on Joe's Garage Act I, II, & III, where the rhythm section eventually deviates from the tempo even though they're (presumably) playing to a click. There's also a moment on the album Weasels Ripped My Flesh (I think it's on Toads of the Short Forest, or Sexually Aroused Gas Mask, but I can't recall) where everyone in the band is playing in a different time signature, while the sax player is blowing his nose, but that may be cut from a live take and probably no click used.

[DoctorAction]

You can't deviate from the tempo when playing to a click.

You might want to listen to Frank Zappa's song "A Little Green Rosetta" the last song on Joe's Garage Act I, II, & III, where the rhythm section eventually deviates from the tempo even though they're (presumably) playing to a click.

I'd forgotten that part completely. Yes, that is one effect you can achieve by deviating from a click.

[dparrott]

Can someone point out where the 8-string parts are?  They're not standing out to me.

The riff starting at 14:13 of the title track is awesome.  Those are the riffs I love.  Fun, exciting, sounds like 90s DT.

[Elite]

Can someone point out where the 8-string parts are?  They're not standing out to me.

The main riff in Awaken the Master. Literally at the beginning of the song. That's it, it's only in this song that he uses the 8 string.

[gzarruk]

Can someone point out where the 8-string parts are?  They're not standing out to me.

The main riff in Awaken the Master. Literally at the beginning of the song. That's it, it's only in this song that he uses the 8 string.

Intro and instrumental break.

Here's a great cover someone made for it, you can see all the 8 string action there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJIwo0oqQUE

[Architeuthis]

 If I remember right in one of his interviews, he said he uses the eight string in the entire song including the solos.

[Elite]

Well, of course, if you're gonna play the song live you can't really swap guitars halfway through if there's no room for that.

[cramx3]

Well, of course, if you're gonna play the song live you can't really swap guitars halfway through if there's no room for that.

It can be done, I've seen it happen but it's usually for a timed spot without guitar so the switch can happen with the guitar tech making it simple for the guitarist.  I'm trying to recall who I saw recently do this and I remember telling my gf, "hey look, how cool, they are changing guitars mid song!" and just getting the look of "wut, who cares" 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

For what it's worth, my Dad, who hasn't enjoyed a Dream Theater album in like ten years, liked AVFTTOTW so much that he actually bought the deluxe box set. I think it was the great mix and the organ sounds that did it for him.

[gzarruk]

For what it's worth, my Dad, who hasn't enjoyed a Dream Theater album in like ten years, liked AVFTTOTW so much that he actually bought the deluxe box set. I think it was the great mix and the organ sounds that did it for him.

[devieira73]

This album deserves, without a doubt, the same treatment as the ones from DT's classic/magic period!

[Dublagent66]

I think besides the awesome epicness of the title track, The Alien is still my favorite of the remaining shorter songs.  JP's solo in that one is just off the charts. 

[TAC]

The Alien is a top song on the album.

[Glasser]

The Alien is a top song on the album.

I completely agree! The Alien is top of my list. The entire album is amazing!

[Kram]

The Alien is a top song on the album.

Agreed.  Here's how I have them now, and every song is good (no skippers) -

1 A View
2 Awaken the Master
3 The Alien
4 Sleeping Giant
5 Answering The Call
6 Transcending Time
7 Invisible Monster

[TAC]

The Alien is a top song on the album.

Agreed.  Here's how I have them now, and every song is good (no skippers) -

1 A View
2 Awaken the Master
3 The Alien
4 Sleeping Giant
5 Answering The Call
6 Transcending Time
7 Invisible Monster

Our Top 4 and Bottom 3 are the same, albeit in different orders.

1. The Alien
2. Sleeping Giant
3. View
4. Awaken The Master
5. Transcending Time
6. Invisible Monster
7. Answering The Call


But hell yes, I really like every song.

[KevShmev]

I am pretty comfortable with this order for now:

01 Awaken the Master
02 Transcending Time
03 Answering the Call
04 Sleeping Giant (this one has been a really slow grower, but I could see it continuing to move up)
05 A View from the Top of the World (would be higher if the ending was better)
06 The Alien
07 Invisible Monster

[TAC]

It should be included in the Top 100.

[Kram]

05 A View from the Top of the World (would be higher if the ending was better)

See I appreciate the fact that they went in a different direction with the ending than what most of us expected.  Is it the best ending of all their epics?  No, I'd say that's Octavarium - but I could make the argument that A View has the best beginning and best middle section of any of their epics.  I have it as a Top 10 all-time DT song - and have grown to really love the ending as well.

[TAC]

It's too bad Kev won't even let you list one of your 10 favorite songs on his list.

[KevShmev]

05 A View from the Top of the World (would be higher if the ending was better)

See I appreciate the fact that they went in a different direction with the ending than what most of us expected.  Is it the best ending of all their epics?  No, I'd say that's Octavarium - but I could make the argument that A View has the best beginning and best middle section of any of their epics.  I have it as a Top 10 all-time DT song - and have grown to really love the ending as well.

I like them doing something a little different with the ending as well, but that doesn't mean I think the execution was top notch. The ending is good, but after how good the first 2/3 of the song is, the last 1/3 is just a bit underwhelming.  It's like The Departed was set to music.

[TAC]

I liked the outro, but the song lacks a climactic moment. To me, this is a huge problem. The rest of the song is excellent, but they should've just called it The Blue Balls Suite.