Invisible Monster Thread ! ALL SPOILERS !

[LKap13]

Well put.

Now Glasser we need you in here STAT to reassure us the new album is killer 

[lonestar]

damn it's vlasto day???

[bosk1]

Well put.

Now Glasser we need you in here STAT to reassure us the new album is killer 

  I think Glasser, noxon, and I have ALL basically said that it is pretty killer, albeit not in so many words.

[dparrott]

I've only heard IM once and I'm still humming that opening keyboard riff.  I love it.

[Elite]

Well put.

Now Glasser we need you in here STAT to reassure us the new album is killer 

And if the 'well put' was meant in response to Ben_Jamin's response to my post, I'm not sure what you even mean, since I never claimed the album isn't going to be good. I'm looking forward to it, like most of us here are.

[JLa]

I remember way back when they used to have various albums as "inspiration" for their own. I think it was nicknamed "inspirational corner" or something. While we got a few "rip-off" tracks with this approach (Muse, anyone?), I think the end result was usually really cool.

This time around I wonder if the guys put some of their own albums in said "inspirational corner" ... I've heard the track three times, but it already feels old. It's the same 'formula' they've been doing for years now. It's properly done and all; good musicianship, good vocals, well produced. But oh so, dare I say it, boring.

The Alien was a completely different beast. At least from my point of view I hope Invisible Monster is the weakest track on the album, and by some margin.

[bosk1]

I've only heard IM once and I'm still humming that opening keyboard riff.  I love it.

Makes sense.  I find it very ear-wormy.

During one of my early listens, I wrote some short notes on a Post-It for each song (as I sometimes do just to keep each song straight in my mind).  Here is what I jotted down for this song:  "HK intro.  Accessible guitar/key riff.  Verse syncopation.  Chorus ear worm!  Eerie melody--SC?  Love it!"

[Skeever]

I definitely agree that it's a nice little earworm. And I like JP's solo. If I would change one thing, it's that I wish there was something giving it a little extra oomph when that chorus came back around the final time. Not sure what that thing would be. But I feel like it could make it feel a bit more powerful.

[dparrott]

Oomph?  that's one of the problems with later DT, after a big climax they repeat the same chorus.  The Alien was a little different, but the last time I remember the last chorus having any major change from the other choruses was Beyond This Life.

[Architeuthis]

I've seen a few posts in this thread that call people a fanboy because they write nothing but positive reviews all the time. In my case, it's just rare that DT puts out something that I don't like.  At their level of musicianship with all the knowledge and tricks they have in their bag, they've gotten really good at arranging those ingredients into songs. I think it's safe to say it's hard for them to write a bad song since they hold themselves to such high standards, plus they love what they do.
I know it's a business and they have to make a living, but I still believe their music is a gift to the fans. The reason that I say that is because they've never sold out (compromised) and have done things their way. I'm so glad there are people in the business writing complex yet interesting music that I can bring home to my personal world and have an escape from daily life.  DT certainly delivers time after time in that area which honestly adds to the quality of my life. So it is a gift because they share their God given talents to those that want to hear it.  Even though we invest in their product, it just gives it more value and something to protect.
So if anyone wants to call me a fanboy,  so be it!   To me,  it's just about appreciating something that is designed to have a positive impact in daily life. 

[bosk1]

You aren't a "fanboy" just because you like most or all of a particular artist's output.  If a particular artist resonates with you, chances are that, unless they radically change their sound, what they do in the future will likely resonate with you as well.  I have a number of artists I feel that way about.  In terms of just blindly lapping up an artist's output, I think the "fanboy" label only applies when it is clear that a person refuses to be objective, which does not apply here.  For instance, there is a certain frequent flyer in the Queensryche thread who tries to argue that Geoff Tate sounds fantastic, has not lost a significant part of his ability, and continues to sing correctly.  Anyone who chooses to like Tate and think he sounds fine, that's great.  Enjoy what you enjoy.  But at least the second two of those three points are objectively, demonstrably false, and I would argue that the first is pretty darned close.  To argue against those kinds of objective facts or to brush valid criticism aside is blind "fanboyism."  But, again, that isn't the case here.

[WilliamMunny]

I've seen a few posts in this thread that call people a fanboy because they write nothing but positive reviews all the time. In my case, it's just rare that DT puts out something that I don't like.  At their level of musicianship with all the knowledge and tricks they have in their bag, they've gotten really good at arranging those ingredients into songs. I think it's safe to say it's hard for them to write a bad song since they hold themselves to such high standards, plus they love what they do.
I know it's a business and they have to make a living, but I still believe their music is a gift to the fans. The reason that I say that is because they've never sold out (compromised) and have done things their way. I'm so glad there are people in the business writing complex yet interesting music that I can bring home to my personal world and have an escape from daily life.  DT certainly delivers time after time in that area which honestly adds to the quality of my life. So it is a gift because they share their God given talents to those that want to hear it.  Even though we invest in their product, it just gives it more value and something to protect.
So if anyone wants to call me a fanboy,  so be it!   To me,  it's just about appreciating something that is designed to have a positive impact in daily life. 

This. I'm with you, brother. The only reason I lurk on a site called 'Dreamtheater Forums' is bc I'm a huge fan. I 'want' to like everything, and am only dissappointed when I've exhausted all efforts to be otherwise. So yeah, I'm a total fanboy.

[geeeemo]

I've seen a few posts in this thread that call people a fanboy because they write nothing but positive reviews all the time. In my case, it's just rare that DT puts out something that I don't like.  At their level of musicianship with all the knowledge and tricks they have in their bag, they've gotten really good at arranging those ingredients into songs. I think it's safe to say it's hard for them to write a bad song since they hold themselves to such high standards, plus they love what they do.
I know it's a business and they have to make a living, but I still believe their music is a gift to the fans. The reason that I say that is because they've never sold out (compromised) and have done things their way. I'm so glad there are people in the business writing complex yet interesting music that I can bring home to my personal world and have an escape from daily life.  DT certainly delivers time after time in that area which honestly adds to the quality of my life. So it is a gift because they share their God given talents to those that want to hear it.  Even though we invest in their product, it just gives it more value and something to protect.
So if anyone wants to call me a fanboy,  so be it!   To me,  it's just about appreciating something that is designed to have a positive impact in daily life. 

Yep, I am a fangirl.  Maybe because it's only been 5 years since my "discovery", but when I try to listen to other bands, I just find myself wanting to listen to DT. I hope it doesn't fade, but you never know. DT usurped Metallica, and I don't listen to them that much now. (I will go to their concerts though!)

[Peter Mc]

Yeah, always thought it was weird to come on a DT fan site and use the term DT fanboy as an insult/criticism.  We're all fanboys and girls aren't we?  I do know what people are getting at in that, just because you're a fan, you don't have to like everything they do but to come on a DT fan site and be surprised when a bunch of people like their new song and push back on those that don't is a bit weird.

For clarity, DT are my favourite band so I guess I could be described as a fanboy.  I don't like every song they've ever done but I like every album they've ever done.  In terms of this new song, I like it more every time I hear it.  Love JLB on this song, the melodies in the verses are really nice, now that they've sunk in, it sounds great, production wise and it's a nice little solo by JP.  I still don't think it's a stunning chorus but, let's be honest, that's not really their forte.  Overall a decent attempt at a "single".  Better than some, not as good as others.

[Dedalus]

You aren't a "fanboy" just because you like most or all of a particular artist's output.  If a particular artist resonates with you, chances are that, unless they radically change their sound, what they do in the future will likely resonate with you as well.  I have a number of artists I feel that way about.  In terms of just blindly lapping up an artist's output, I think the "fanboy" label only applies when it is clear that a person refuses to be objective, which does not apply here.  For instance, there is a certain frequent flyer in the Queensryche thread who tries to argue that Geoff Tate sounds fantastic, has not lost a significant part of his ability, and continues to sing correctly.  Anyone who chooses to like Tate and think he sounds fine, that's great.  Enjoy what you enjoy.  But at least the second two of those three points are objectively, demonstrably false, and I would argue that the first is pretty darned close.  To argue against those kinds of objective facts or to brush valid criticism aside is blind "fanboyism."  But, again, that isn't the case here.

It's an interesting expression. I'm not sure if we can choose to like something or not, but I'm pretty sure we choose if we're more tolerant of some artists and not others.

Neal Morse is my perfect example of this. I'm condescending to Neal's work, whether it's the lyrics (which I actively dislike) or a certain sameness throughout most of his career. These are things that bother me, but I try to let it go (which is why I always go back to the artist).

In the case of DT, considering the repercussions of TA and the moment of their career (they are no longer the young people they were), I imagined that it would be very likely that they would head on into a "safer" moment of their career.  As I mentioned before, so far I'm right in my expectations (let's see what I haven't heard yet). And here comes another concession with the band, I understood the moment and accepted it. I can get tired of this later.

After all, these are situations that always come up. We, consciously or not, choose to accept or reject the new moments, the bands' new directions, the new members.

Personally, what I find very irritating is how many people have made the choice to reject (again, consciously or not) and act like they don't (and the Queensryche example is excellent).

[Buddyhunter1]

It's "stans" now, people. Get with the times.

[LKap13]

We're not hip and we're troglodytes here... Why do you think dt forum is the most popular extant forum?  kidding

[wolfking]

To address the criticism, and the "balance" issue just a bit:

This comes up every time there is something new.  And, basically, I allow discussion to be pretty free here.  People are certainly entitled to have their opinions of DT material.  And, perhaps moreso than way back in the days of the official forum, people are entitled to express those opinions, whether positive or negative.  They just need to be expressed in a respectful way.  And, in my opinion as the guy who has the final say on the rules, I think that is the healthiest approach.  I've been around and around this issue with most of the band members, and my philosophy is that it is best to let people discuss freely, within certain bounds.  And since I feel that DT is pretty consistent about putting out quality music that they have taken their time to thoughtfully construct, I think that even the negative opinions are beneficial to them, because those opinions invite discussion that, on balance, ends up ultimately being constructive.

But do some comments cross the line?  Yeah.  I think some do, even if we let them go and don't say anything.  Keep in mind that the goal isn't "It's just my opinion, and I'm just telling the truth."  Opinions can be offered using tact and diplomacy, and some of you lack that.  As was rightly pointed out, making music is a job for these guys, and sometimes people on a job don't always put out a 100% airtight, top-quality product.  But by the same token, this is art, and the DT guys are artists.  They pour themselves into their art, and present it to us, the fans, as something for us to enjoy.  If your kid made poured him/herself into a piece of art and gave it to you, and you said, "Meh, this is dull and uninspired," my opinion is that you seriously lack tact and understanding and should check yourself.  I think we make the mistake of forgetting that this music is a labor of love presented as a gift to the fans, and I think the reasons we forget (or simply discount that fact) is that the band members are semi-public figures and make a profit from selling their art.  But I think we would do well to remember the human side that I mentioned a couple of lines above. 

Anyhow, bottom line is, as long as the discussion stays relatively respectful, which it largely does, the mods and I will not interfere.  Feel free to like or dislike what suits your tastes.  Discuss away.  But try to keep it within reasonable bounds.

This obviously was posted due to my comments also.  Elite did a good job breaking it down.  Same as Elite, while my comments are to the point, I don't feel why one should need to beat around the bush.  I mostly agree with all of this fwiw anyway, although I do slightly have an issue with the bolded sentence.

I don't think that's a fair comparison.  I don't have kids, but do you really think I'd approach what my kid created the same as a song from a band I listen to?  Do I have to be worried about hurting the bands feelings or something?  Would they really care what I think the same my kid would care what I think of their work, not a chance.  Obviously, if I'm going to tear down a song from my favourite band, I'm certainly not going to react the same way to my kid, that's a bit far fetched.

Anyway, apologies if I crossed the line also, but I've said my thoughts and will simply wait for the album to discuss any further.

[lovethedrake]

Oomph?  that's one of the problems with later DT, after a big climax they repeat the same chorus.  The Alien was a little different, but the last time I remember the last chorus having any major change from the other choruses was Beyond This Life.

AT WITS END???    Come On!

[jingle.boy]

Well, I finally clicked play on it.  Found a few moments of it enjoyable, but where's the prog?  Where's the metal?  By-and-large, it sounded like a lot of musical ideas that weren't even good enough for The Astonishing.    And for those that know my thoughts on that album, I think that's enough about that.

I haven't read every post on these last 10+ pages, but it seems a lot of the "negative" opinions of the song are coming from the long-standing members here... those of us that have been along with DT for 20+ years.  Now, I don't know how many of the new members are new to DTF but have listened to the band for a long time, but I can't help but wonder if this plays a role - those of us who've listened to the band evolve in real time from the earliest days of their career are saddened by what we now hear them putting out - to me, this song leaves me with a sense of devolution.  I think I said it in The Alien thread - it's like I'm watching my favorite aging athlete who just can't perform up to even mediocre standards anymore.

I'll give the album a fair shake, but these first two singles leave me very worried.

[LKap13]

Well, I finally clicked play on it.  Found a few moments of it enjoyable, but where's the prog?  Where's the metal?  By-and-large, it sounded like a lot of musical ideas that weren't even good enough for The Astonishing.    And for those that know my thoughts on that album, I think that's enough about that.

I haven't read every post on these last 10+ pages, but it seems a lot of the "negative" opinions of the song are coming from the long-standing members here... those of us that have been along with DT for 20+ years.  Now, I don't know how many of the new members are new to DTF but have listened to the band for a long time, but I can't help but wonder if this plays a role - those of us who've listened to the band evolve in real time from the earliest days of their career are saddened by what we now hear them putting out - to me, this song leaves me with a sense of devolution.  I think I said it in The Alien thread - it's like I'm watching my favorite aging athlete who just can't perform up to even mediocre standards anymore.

I'll give the album a fair shake, but these first two singles leave me very worried.

Agree on IM, but I'm surprised you say that about The Alien. That song is an upgrade sonically, and is generally an evolution in sound

[lonestar]

Well, I finally clicked play on it.  Found a few moments of it enjoyable, but where's the prog?  Where's the metal?  By-and-large, it sounded like a lot of musical ideas that weren't even good enough for The Astonishing.    And for those that know my thoughts on that album, I think that's enough about that.

I haven't read every post on these last 10+ pages, but it seems a lot of the "negative" opinions of the song are coming from the long-standing members here... those of us that have been along with DT for 20+ years.  Now, I don't know how many of the new members are new to DTF but have listened to the band for a long time, but I can't help but wonder if this plays a role - those of us who've listened to the band evolve in real time from the earliest days of their career are saddened by what we now hear them putting out - to me, this song leaves me with a sense of devolution.  I think I said it in The Alien thread - it's like I'm watching my favorite aging athlete who just can't perform up to even mediocre standards anymore.

I'll give the album a fair shake, but these first two singles leave me very worried.

Valid view, and I think it has a great deal to do with it. I went through the same thing with Yes, with each latter era album slowly getting less and less listenable, until Heaven and Earth came out, which I turned off midway through and never revisited. Now mind you, ivbeen listening to Yes for 45 fucking years, seen them live countless times, and shaped decades of music life around them. They just lost it man.


I'm dearly hoping this isn't a Heaven and Earth moment for me with DT, a band I've adored since 92 and will adore most of their work for years to come.

[Dedalus]

Well, I finally clicked play on it.  Found a few moments of it enjoyable, but where's the prog?  Where's the metal?  By-and-large, it sounded like a lot of musical ideas that weren't even good enough for The Astonishing.    And for those that know my thoughts on that album, I think that's enough about that.

I haven't read every post on these last 10+ pages, but it seems a lot of the "negative" opinions of the song are coming from the long-standing members here... those of us that have been along with DT for 20+ years.  Now, I don't know how many of the new members are new to DTF but have listened to the band for a long time, but I can't help but wonder if this plays a role - those of us who've listened to the band evolve in real time from the earliest days of their career are saddened by what we now hear them putting out - to me, this song leaves me with a sense of devolution.  I think I said it in The Alien thread - it's like I'm watching my favorite aging athlete who just can't perform up to even mediocre standards anymore.

I'll give the album a fair shake, but these first two singles leave me very worried.

Well I've been following the band for 25 years. Wear over time is expected and normal.

But let's remember that "Dream Theater and negative reception" are nothing new, right? FII, ToT, SC.

[lonestar]

Well, I finally clicked play on it.  Found a few moments of it enjoyable, but where's the prog?  Where's the metal?  By-and-large, it sounded like a lot of musical ideas that weren't even good enough for The Astonishing.    And for those that know my thoughts on that album, I think that's enough about that.

I haven't read every post on these last 10+ pages, but it seems a lot of the "negative" opinions of the song are coming from the long-standing members here... those of us that have been along with DT for 20+ years.  Now, I don't know how many of the new members are new to DTF but have listened to the band for a long time, but I can't help but wonder if this plays a role - those of us who've listened to the band evolve in real time from the earliest days of their career are saddened by what we now hear them putting out - to me, this song leaves me with a sense of devolution.  I think I said it in The Alien thread - it's like I'm watching my favorite aging athlete who just can't perform up to even mediocre standards anymore.

I'll give the album a fair shake, but these first two singles leave me very worried.

Well I've been following the band for 25 years. Wear over time is expected and normal.

But let's remember that "Dream Theater and negative reception" are nothing new, right? FII, ToT, SC.

Boy ain't that the truth. Nobody hates Dream Theater more than their own fans 

[Dedalus]

Well, I finally clicked play on it.  Found a few moments of it enjoyable, but where's the prog?  Where's the metal?  By-and-large, it sounded like a lot of musical ideas that weren't even good enough for The Astonishing.    And for those that know my thoughts on that album, I think that's enough about that.

I haven't read every post on these last 10+ pages, but it seems a lot of the "negative" opinions of the song are coming from the long-standing members here... those of us that have been along with DT for 20+ years.  Now, I don't know how many of the new members are new to DTF but have listened to the band for a long time, but I can't help but wonder if this plays a role - those of us who've listened to the band evolve in real time from the earliest days of their career are saddened by what we now hear them putting out - to me, this song leaves me with a sense of devolution.  I think I said it in The Alien thread - it's like I'm watching my favorite aging athlete who just can't perform up to even mediocre standards anymore.

I'll give the album a fair shake, but these first two singles leave me very worried.

Well I've been following the band for 25 years. Wear over time is expected and normal.

But let's remember that "Dream Theater and negative reception" are nothing new, right? FII, ToT, SC.

Boy ain't that the truth. Nobody hates Dream Theater more than their own fans 

We will not rest while this band (and all its members) walk the Earth. 

[lovethedrake]

I've generally come to accept that we aren't getting an album like SFAM or I&W anymore.   A huge part of that is due to Labrie aging which gives the band a considerably narrower range to write vocal melodies in.  We aren't getting the bridge from Another Day or Anna Lee anymore because it's simply not even possible.

However, I really liked DoT and think AWE is the best song they have made since SDOIT.  I have felt the band being on an upward progression from the Self Titled through DoT.   

I really expected this to be the album they truly crushed it with a fantastic return to magical form, but outside of the production being an upgrade it would appear, based on the singles that this is who Dream Theater is now. 

I still love them and think they are still one of the best bands making music today.   That will never change as long as JP is in the band. 

It is extremely unreasonable to expect a band 32 years in to their career to make albums like their prime.  It just hardly ever if ever happens.

My only disappointment is that they used up some of their "prime" years to explore a music style I'm not in love with (TOT-BC&SL).

Now I feel they are looking to return to their 90's form a bit but are simply not spring chickens anymore. 

Still.... I feel like every DT album since 1989 has brought something great to the table and I have no doubt that AVFTTOTW will be no different.  I'm still holding out hope that IM (which I don't even dislike) is one of the weakest tracks on the album and that the album will still slay us all.

[SeRoX]

Actually I don't remember "that much negative opinions" about the new album singles (starting with SC/Forsaken). Sure there were many for previous albums which I recall A Rite Of Passage took many caning but not that The Alien/IM level. I hope the rest 5 songs make many of us satisfied.

[TAC]

I've generally come to accept that we aren't getting an album like SFAM or I&W anymore.   A huge part of that is due to Labrie aging which gives the band a considerably narrower range to write vocal melodies in. 

I don't agree with this at all. James was amazing on The Astonishing, as were the melodies.

[lovethedrake]

I've generally come to accept that we aren't getting an album like SFAM or I&W anymore.   A huge part of that is due to Labrie aging which gives the band a considerably narrower range to write vocal melodies in. 

I don't agree with this at all. James was amazing on The Astonishing, as were the melodies.

I love The Astonishing and think James did a great job but I still don't think his voice had the same power or range that it used to by any means and that was a huge part of the appeal of the band when I first fell in love with them. 

Not to mention the fact that The Astonishing was 5 years ago and I think that those 5 years have made a difference. 

[Vlasto]

Still.... I feel like every DT album since 1989 has brought something great to the table and I have no doubt that AVFTTOTW will be no different.  I'm still holding out hope that IM (which I don't even dislike) is one of the weakest tracks on the album and that the album will still slay us all.

yap, my words...

[wolfking]

Well, I finally clicked play on it.  Found a few moments of it enjoyable, but where's the prog?  Where's the metal?  By-and-large, it sounded like a lot of musical ideas that weren't even good enough for The Astonishing.    And for those that know my thoughts on that album, I think that's enough about that.

I haven't read every post on these last 10+ pages, but it seems a lot of the "negative" opinions of the song are coming from the long-standing members here... those of us that have been along with DT for 20+ years.  Now, I don't know how many of the new members are new to DTF but have listened to the band for a long time, but I can't help but wonder if this plays a role - those of us who've listened to the band evolve in real time from the earliest days of their career are saddened by what we now hear them putting out - to me, this song leaves me with a sense of devolution.  I think I said it in The Alien thread - it's like I'm watching my favorite aging athlete who just can't perform up to even mediocre standards anymore.

I'll give the album a fair shake, but these first two singles leave me very worried.

Well said, agree with pretty much everything.

[Dream Team]

I've generally come to accept that we aren't getting an album like SFAM or I&W anymore.   A huge part of that is due to Labrie aging which gives the band a considerably narrower range to write vocal melodies in.  We aren't getting the bridge from Another Day or Anna Lee anymore because it's simply not even possible.

However, I really liked DoT and think AWE is the best song they have made since SDOIT.  I have felt the band being on an upward progression from the Self Titled through DoT.   

I really expected this to be the album they truly crushed it with a fantastic return to magical form, but outside of the production being an upgrade it would appear, based on the singles that this is who Dream Theater is now. 

I still love them and think they are still one of the best bands making music today.   That will never change as long as JP is in the band. 

It is extremely unreasonable to expect a band 32 years in to their career to make albums like their prime.  It just hardly ever if ever happens.

My only disappointment is that they used up some of their "prime" years to explore a music style I'm not in love with (TOT-BC&SL).

Now I feel they are looking to return to their 90's form a bit but are simply not spring chickens anymore. 

Still.... I feel like every DT album since 1989 has brought something great to the table and I have no doubt that AVFTTOTW will be no different.  I'm still holding out hope that IM (which I don't even dislike) is one of the weakest tracks on the album and that the album will still slay us all.

Yes.

[T-ski]

I gave it a second listen after 24 hrs, still blah.

As I was listening my ears told me Mangini was playing too much for what the song called for. He seemed on 10 while everyone else was 5 or 6.

[Dedalus]

My only disappointment is that they used up some of their "prime" years to explore a music style I'm not in love with (TOT-BC&SL).

Now I feel they are looking to return to their 90's form a bit but are simply not spring chickens anymore. 

I agree. That's why I always expressed the opinion that TOT was an album that "hindered" the direction of the band. Evidently from my perspective, of course.

After SFAM and SDOIT, they had everything to produce an entire album like Octavarium (the song, of course).

But they decided to try a heavier album, then some emulation of other bands etc.

Okay, they were fair choices too, as much as I don't like it that much

[LKap13]

There has to be something else at play. A reason why they don't produce an album full of octavariums. Two things come to mind right away, one of which is something jp has talked about
1) JP began to like the way headbanging songs felt for him while he played live... And he's been chasing that
2) they seem to worry that an album full of octavariums would sell no records

3) it must be damn hard to write a song like octavarium. As has been alluded to previously, if making records is their job, can we really expect them to go 100% into every measure, all the time? I sure as hell don't do that at my job 

Edit - jp has explicitly stated #1. Number 2 is my speculation