DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[bosk1]

You did a good job of paraphrasing what he did say, and then you went on to draw a conclusion and attribute it to him that has nothing to do with what he said.  So, yes, you misrepresented what he said. 

[TAC]

Can someone please point out where the climax of the AVFTTOTW (the song) occurs?

[bosk1]

In the song.  Right at the climactic part.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

This is completely Hypothetical: if I was introduced to DT today being a prog metal fan already and I was handed their entire studio discog I would not say I&W is their best album technically as they have evolved so much since. It all comes down to preferred taste, bottom line. But that's only my point of view.

Totally fair point. And we likely have fans on this forum who were introduced to the band much later (myself included, though I did listen to I&W first) and who think other albums are better. We have at least one person on this forum who thinks TA is the best.

[Glasser]

In the song.  Right at the climactic part.

   

DT fans rule! Seriously love you all. 

[LKap13]

I don't think there's a single errant note on i&w though 

[TAC]

In the song.  Right at the climactic part.

Oh shit. Why didn't I think of that?

[KevShmev]

I don't think there's a single errant note on i&w though 

There is not.  It is a perfect record, in every way, triggered snare (which is part of the charm) and all.  Eight songs, all of them perfect, and the sound and mix could not be any better. 

[TAC]

I don't think there's a single errant note on i&w though 

There is not.  It is a perfect record, in every way, triggered snare (which is part of the charm) and all.  Eight songs, all of them perfect, and the sound and mix could not be any better. 

This. The best album ever made.

[Glasser]

Gun to the head I think SFAM is their "Mindcrime". BUT I personally like ADTOE more, and it's my favorite. Am I saying it's better than View? .....No because I see View as a greatest hits but with all new songs if you get what I mean. I have said on several occasions that View scopes their entire career and still has an incredible energy and freshness to it.

[TAC]

Gun to the head I think SFAM is their "Mindcrime".

Then I&W is their Warning, and I take Warning over Mindcrime.

[LKap13]

Looking forward to their next album already!

[KevShmev]

Gun to the head I think SFAM is their "Mindcrime". BUT I personally like ADTOE more, and it's my favorite. Am I saying it's better than View? .....No because I see View as a greatest hits but with all new songs if you get what I mean. I have said on several occasions that View scopes their entire career.

I think ADTOE would have been top 5 for me if it sounded better, but the muddy mix (especially when it really rocks) makes it a tough listen for me, even the HD version, which is better, but still too muddy.  The songwriting was definitely mostly excellent on that one. 

[TAC]

Gun to the head I think SFAM is their "Mindcrime". BUT I personally like ADTOE more, and it's my favorite. Am I saying it's better than View? .....No because I see View as a greatest hits but with all new songs if you get what I mean. I have said on several occasions that View scopes their entire career.

I think ADTOE would have been top 5 for me if it sounded better, but the muddy mix (especially when it really rocks) makes it a tough listen for me, even the HD version, which is better, but still too muddy.  The songwriting was definitely mostly excellent on that one.

The songs Kev. The songs. ADTOE is an amazing album. I don't even have an issue with how it sounds.

[LKap13]

Yea such a weird mix. Very thin and thready. Not much bass. Just weird.

Biggest surprise on this forum is the amount of love adtoe gets. It ain't bad but I'll take tot ANY DAY

[KevShmev]

The songs Kev. The songs. ADTOE is an amazing album. I don't even have an issue with how it sounds.

I do. I finally got my awesome home stereo system a month or so ago (surround sound and all), and I ran through a ton of stuff.  It was great to be reminded of how great some stuff sounded, but also a bit of a bummer in some cases.  ADTOE was one of those cases.  It was glaring how poor the mix is when I turned it on and cranked it up. I ended up turning off Breaking All Illusions a couple of minutes into it because I was so aggravated by how suffocating the mix was.

[lovethedrake]

Rolling Stones did a massive poll on the greatest prog album of all time and SFAM won it.  This was fan voting.

I'm sure there are a ton of people who like other albums more than I&W and SFAM but those two albums are far more beloved than any other albums in their catalogue.   

It's fine if you don't share that opinion but it's naive  to suggest that the Mangini albums are even in the same stratosphere of fan appreciation than those two albums.

I think Kev is simply suggesting to tone down the hyperbole as it may set people up for disappointment.  Especially when 99% of the fanbase hasn't heard the album yet.   I think if the album was out and we all have heard it than that strong of an opinion wouldn't hold as much weight.   Right now we are clinging to every word and if you want others to enjoy the album suggesting it's better than SFAM is a risky endeavor.   

Everyone can say what they want, but that is how I read Kev's comments and he's correct in that assertion.  . 

Bosk and Glasser like the album also but have been careful not to make outrageous claims that could influence the entire site before we all hear it.  I think that's a smarter approach.

[lovethedrake]

Yea such a weird mix. Very thin and thready. Not much bass. Just weird.

Biggest surprise on this forum is the amount of love adtoe gets. It ain't bad but I'll take tot ANY DAY

Totally agree... I don't understand the love fest for ADTOE.  Outside of breaking all illusions and the one chill part in Lost Not Forgotten I find the album to be very run of the mill DT.   The production being bad doesn't help matters either.  TOT isn't my style of music but it sounds way more inspired and exciting than ADTOE to me. 

To each his own though!   DT simply doesn't have a dud... they always bring it.  Different albums resonate with different people. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Rolling Stones did a massive poll on the greatest prog album of all time and SFAM won it.  This was fan voting.

I'm sure there are a ton of people who like other albums more than I&W and SFAM but those two albums are far more beloved than any other albums in their catalogue.   

It's fine if you don't share that opinion but it's naive  to suggest that the Mangini albums are even in the same stratosphere of fan appreciation than those two albums.

I think Kev is simply suggesting to tone down the hyperbole as it may set people up for disappointment.  Especially when 99% of the fanbase hasn't heard the album yet.   I think if the album was out and we all have heard it than that strong of an opinion wouldn't hold as much weight.   Right now we are clinging to every word and if you want others to enjoy the album suggesting it's better than SFAM is a risky endeavor.   

Everyone can say what they want, but that is how I read Kev's comments and he's correct in that assertion.  . 

Bosk and Glasser like the album also but have been careful not to make outrageous claims that could influence the entire site before we all hear it.  I think that's a smarter approach.

It's not hyperbole unless Kyo believes he is exaggerating, which there's no reason to think is true. There's nothing hyperbolic about his review if he really believes DT15 is better. At the end of the day his review is his personal opinion. So provided that, what some are really asking him to do (regardless of how they might want to quibble over trivial matters of wording) is not to state his overall highly enthusiastic opinion of the record relative to other DT records because fans (majority? super majority? some? not sure how many fans are required to be inevitably disappointed by DT15 before we conclude Kyo's review set their musical experience up for failure on Oct 22), and probably they too, really love SFAM and SDOIT and won't think DT15 is anywhere near as good.

And you know what? If you really love those albums that much, a) that is great and b) you can dismiss his review out of hand before hearing the rest of DT15 because what are the chances the remaining 5 songs on the album can top such widely loved records of the past? He said which other DT albums he likes, so that is plenty of reference as to where he is coming from as a fan.

[rab7]

Rolling Stones did a massive poll on the greatest prog album of all time and SFAM won it.  This was fan voting.

So if I remember correctly, it was a single elimination bracket. I don't remember what killed I&W, but once SFAM was the last DT survivor, DT fans united behind it and made sure it beat everyone else. Doesn't necessarily mean everyone who voted for it considered it better than I&W

[lovethedrake]

Rolling Stones did a massive poll on the greatest prog album of all time and SFAM won it.  This was fan voting.

So if I remember correctly, it was a single elimination bracket. I don't remember what killed I&W, but once SFAM was the last DT survivor, DT fans united behind it and made sure it beat everyone else. Doesn't necessarily mean everyone who voted for it considered it better than I&W

That's definitely true... but I certainly can't imagine any other album being included in that poll.

[Glasser]

Yea such a weird mix. Very thin and thready. Not much bass. Just weird.

Biggest surprise on this forum is the amount of love adtoe gets. It ain't bad but I'll take tot ANY DAY

Totally agree... I don't understand the love fest for ADTOE.  Outside of breaking all illusions and the one chill part in Lost Not Forgotten I find the album to be very run of the mill DT.   The production being bad doesn't help matters either.  TOT isn't my style of music but it sounds way more inspired and exciting than ADTOE to me. 

To each his own though!   DT simply doesn't have a dud... they always bring it.  Different albums resonate with different people.

You don't have to understand the love fest that's the beauty of it. Like you said, to each their own AND they don't have a dud. You are right, so am I, so is he, so is she etc... We all love DT! Everyone's opinion matters. 

[jayvee3]

Rolling Stones did a massive poll on the greatest prog album of all time and SFAM won it.  This was fan voting.

I'm sure there are a ton of people who like other albums more than I&W and SFAM but those two albums are far more beloved than any other albums in their catalogue.   

It's fine if you don't share that opinion but it's naive  to suggest that the Mangini albums are even in the same stratosphere of fan appreciation than those two albums.

I think Kev is simply suggesting to tone down the hyperbole as it may set people up for disappointment.  Especially when 99% of the fanbase hasn't heard the album yet.   I think if the album was out and we all have heard it than that strong of an opinion wouldn't hold as much weight.   Right now we are clinging to every word and if you want others to enjoy the album suggesting it's better than SFAM is a risky endeavor.   

Everyone can say what they want, but that is how I read Kev's comments and he's correct in that assertion.  . 

Bosk and Glasser like the album also but have been careful not to make outrageous claims that could influence the entire site before we all hear it.  I think that's a smarter approach.

It's not hyperbole unless Kyo believes he is exaggerating, which there's no reason to think is true. There's nothing hyperbolic about his review if he really believes DT15 is better. At the end of the day his review is his personal opinion. So provided that, what some are really asking him to do (regardless of how they might want to quibble over trivial matters of wording) is not to state his overall highly enthusiastic opinion of the record relative to other DT records because fans (majority? super majority? some? not sure how many fans are required to be inevitably disappointed by DT15 before we conclude Kyo's review set their musical experience up for failure on Oct 22), and probably they too, really love SFAM and SDOIT and won't think DT15 is anywhere near as good.

And you know what? If you really love those albums that much, a) that is great and b) you can dismiss his review out of hand before hearing the rest of DT15 because what are the chances the remaining 5 songs on the album can top such widely loved records of the past? He said which other DT albums he likes, so that is plenty of reference as to where he is coming from as a fan.

Kev didn't dismiss anything. He was simply saying it's worth managing expectations when what was worded is comparing it to some of the bands big tier albums, as bold statements can often lead to unrealistic expectations. I completely understand where he is coming from.

I have enjoyed the reviews and am really excited for the new album, but also think its worth going in looking to digest the new album over time as its own entity without making comparisons at this stage. But that's just me...

[NoFred]

Discussion going off the rails due to a positive review looking forward to this one! T minus 10 to go...

[Dedalus]

Kyo,

With all due respect, the minute you said, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words," in your review, you lost me.  It would be like David Gilmour releasing a new album and a reviewer saying at the start, "This might be the best album he has been a part of since The Dark Side of the Moon!"  Throwing out stuff like that simply puts unrealistic expectations in the heads of those who have not heard the album yet.  Maybe it's just me, but I feel there are ways to write a glowingly positive review without feeling the need for that kind of hyperbole.

It's a personal view and it's certainly not hyperbole from my point of view. Everyone's top albums will be different. For me, Awake has always been mostly weak and FII has been very uneven. That leaves SfaM and Six Degrees as the main towering classics from the post-I&W years. I don't think any of the later Portnoy albums are great. My personal top 5 would probably be I&W, SfaM, 6DOIT, ADToE and (yes!) The Astonishing. Compared to these, the new album is significantly more focused and more fun than TA. It is significantly fresher and better sounding than ADToE. It is significantly more focused than 6DOIT and while it's a close call with SfaM, I prefer the new one because - again - it is more focused (musically, where SfaM sometimes sacrifices that for conceptual reasons) and the lack of sappy ballads makes it more fun overall. So no hyperbole at all needed to say that yes, I do like this album better than my personal favorites, with I&W being the lone exception (an album that I consider damn near perfect and almost impossible to top anyway). Hence, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words" is ultimately just a matter-of-fact realization from my point of view. You may not agree, but you may also completely disagree with me about Awake or ToT being weak albums where the new one being better in my opinion is just not much of a feat. That's just how it goes.

Let me explain it a little better: it is not about any one person's of their work; it is about knowing the favorites of the fanbase and keeping expectations realistic.  To know the DT fan base is to know that (post-I&W) a record like Scenes from a Memory is wildly popular, and Awake and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence are widely loved as well.  So, again, saying, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words," is setting a lot of fans up for disappointment if your opinion is not shared by them right away, and like it or not, expectations do often subconsciously affect how fans react to new music.  That is all I am saying. 

The point of interest is, does the reviewer need to worry about this?

[nobloodyname]

Blimey. People do love a good old contretemps on the internet, don't they?

[Lax]

As most DT albums I love half of ADTOE
The sound isn't a show stopper for me, else it would mean we can't enjoy albums like and justice for all ?

I think the whole "best since I&W" thing is completely subjective and different for each person and changes over time !
It's normal for one person to think SFAM is the best concept album of all times for 10 years and someday change his mind

The album is dropping soon, can't wait

[Kyo]

I am not sure how any more clear I make this: IT IS ABOUT KEEPING EXPECTATIONS REALISTIC.

But it really sounds more like it is about keeping expectations low, which isn't the same thing. Whether I'd rate the new album better than, e.g., SfaM or slightly below it ultimately doesn't matter to anyone else. Here's what sets realistic expectations without quabbling about individual people's ratings of individual albums: I think the new album is one of the best things they've done in their career, period. It's that simple. Whether it'll end up being your personal number 2, number 5, number 1 or number 12, I couldn't possibly say. And so it can't be a factor for deciding how to phrase my review.

[ariich]

Kyo,

With all due respect, the minute you said, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words," in your review, you lost me.  It would be like David Gilmour releasing a new album and a reviewer saying at the start, "This might be the best album he has been a part of since The Dark Side of the Moon!"  Throwing out stuff like that simply puts unrealistic expectations in the heads of those who have not heard the album yet.  Maybe it's just me, but I feel there are ways to write a glowingly positive review without feeling the need for that kind of hyperbole.

It's a personal view and it's certainly not hyperbole from my point of view. Everyone's top albums will be different. For me, Awake has always been mostly weak and FII has been very uneven. That leaves SfaM and Six Degrees as the main towering classics from the post-I&W years. I don't think any of the later Portnoy albums are great. My personal top 5 would probably be I&W, SfaM, 6DOIT, ADToE and (yes!) The Astonishing. Compared to these, the new album is significantly more focused and more fun than TA. It is significantly fresher and better sounding than ADToE. It is significantly more focused than 6DOIT and while it's a close call with SfaM, I prefer the new one because - again - it is more focused (musically, where SfaM sometimes sacrifices that for conceptual reasons) and the lack of sappy ballads makes it more fun overall. So no hyperbole at all needed to say that yes, I do like this album better than my personal favorites, with I&W being the lone exception (an album that I consider damn near perfect and almost impossible to top anyway). Hence, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words" is ultimately just a matter-of-fact realization from my point of view. You may not agree, but you may also completely disagree with me about Awake or ToT being weak albums where the new one being better in my opinion is just not much of a feat. That's just how it goes.

Let me explain it a little better: it is not about any one person's of their work; it is about knowing the favorites of the fanbase and keeping expectations realistic.  To know the DT fan base is to know that (post-I&W) a record like Scenes from a Memory is wildly popular, and Awake and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence are widely loved as well.  So, again, saying, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words," is setting a lot of fans up for disappointment if your opinion is not shared by them right away, and like it or not, expectations do often subconsciously affect how fans react to new music.  That is all I am saying. 

This is all well and good, but why do you think Kyo was trying to (or otherwise should) manage expectations in the first place? His original post which you responded to very specifically said "here's my personal take on it". There's no possible way to read that other than "here is my opinion".

[NoFred]

I am not sure how any more clear I make this: IT IS ABOUT KEEPING EXPECTATIONS REALISTIC.

But it really sounds more like it is about keeping expectations low, which isn't the same thing. Whether I'd rate the new album better than, e.g., SfaM or slightly below it ultimately doesn't matter to anyone else. Here's what sets realistic expectations without quabbling about individual people's ratings of individual albums: I think the new album is one of the best things they've done in their career, period. It's that simple. Whether it'll end up being your personal number 2, number 5, number 1 or number 12, I couldn't possibly say. And so it can't be a factor for deciding how to phrase my review.

Agreed, Kyo thanks for following up to clarify (2x now) 

[nobloodyname]

The fact Kyo is having to justify his statement is utterly absurd. If he thinks it's DT's best effort since Images & Words, fine. It's not his responsibility to manage the expectations of the forum; last time I checked, he wasn't a member of the band (although I do happen to know he's a nice chap). If someone's going to feel personally aggrieved because they thought they were getting a top two or three DT album all down to Kyo's thoughts, that's solely on them, and I would suggest they probably have bigger problems to worry about elsewhere if they let it affect them to that degree.

[erwinrafael]

"Their best since Images and Words" has no bearing to me because I fell in love with DT when I first heard that album in 1996, but when I heard Awake a few months after, I&W was quickly toppled.  Closest a DT album came to my love for Awake was Dream Theater self-titled and The Astonishing, but Distance Over Time finally broke Awake's stranglehold and is now currently my favorite DT album. So in my case, it would be the expectations "best album since Distance Over Time" that I have to manage. 

I really really love The Alien now, have listened to it at least twice a day since its release. And while I was initially lukewarm to Invisible Monster, I have grown to love it and even sing it when I played it not as a single but as part of a playlist following The Alien and The Dark Eternal Night.

Addendum: Kyo, since bosk sort of slipped earlier of there being a Rush-inspired tune in this album, and I guess that is Transcending Time based on the snippets, can you tease us with what Rush song it sort of sounds like?

[erciccio]

I've just received confirmation that my Dream Theater - A View From The Top Of The World (Ltd. Deluxe 2CD+Blu-ray Artbook) has been shipped..
I will receive it on Thursday

Yesterday I checked on the UPS site, and actually only the label had been printed.
But today I received this as well..

"Your order at InsideOut Shop is being shipped right now. Please allow 2 to 14 working days for delivery depending on the country you ordered from.

Contact us at shop@insideout.de in case you need tracking details or other necessary information concerning your order.

Thank you very much, we are looking forward to hearing from you again."

[Pettor]

The fact Kyo is having to justify his statement is utterly absurd. If he thinks it's DT's best effort since Images & Words, fine. It's not his responsibility to manage the expectations of the forum; last time I checked, he wasn't a member of the band (although I do happen to know he's a nice chap). If someone's going to feel personally aggrieved because they thought they were getting a top two or three DT album all down to Kyo's thoughts, that's solely on them, and I would suggest they probably have bigger problems to worry about elsewhere if they let it affect them to that degree.

This this and this. Reviews are NOT objective and should never be seen as such. Reviews can be used to get a measure from a person and is only useful if you think this persons taste aligns with your own taste and nothing more. It's not universal, it's not a real metric for the music itself and it's fully subjective. If a review in the end translates to hype that makes the album disappointing that is really on the reader. Sure the reviewer should try to give as much information as possible and try to describe it's own personal taste / alignment so that the reader can understand if that will match. Saying something like "best since I&W" is a perfectly valid sentence no matter of what the global average score is or fan base thinks of it, since once again, it's subjective.

Kyo should sleep calm tonight because the only fault here is thinking reviews should be aligning with global metrics, fan bases or other still highly subjective metrics. If you think the review was over it's head for stating something like "best since I&W" there's a super easy solution; dismiss the review.

[Fritzinger]

Gun to the head I think SFAM is their "Mindcrime".

Then I&W is their Warning, and I take Warning over Mindcrime.

Warning and Mindcrime are children's scribbles, while I&W and SFAM are like paintings by Caspar David Friedrich.