DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[erwinrafael]

I think he means there was a melting pot of styles across the first eight albums. Not every album had a mix of styles (jazz, classical, etc.).

Well, the Astonishing certainly throws into the pot a new musical ingredient.

What style of music is that? Disney is not a genre of music.

Why Disney? It's musical theater. I don't even get why Disney would come to mind unless one's musical vocabulary is limited.

[TAC]

I'm limited then because the moment I heard the 6 D's Overture, I thought Disney.

[KevShmev]

I'm limited then because the moment I heard the 6 D's Overture, I thought Disney.

Well, yeah.

[erwinrafael]

I mean, I get it if we are talking about The Answer. 

[darkshade]

I'm not going to claim I know all about musical theater music, Broadway, etc.. but I was involved in pits for musicals and have heard and been to a few Broadway plays.
TA sounds like it was inspired by music of the early-mid 90s Disney animated movies, though.

[erwinrafael]

Beauty and the Beast? Alladin? Lion King?

[Mosh]

I definitely heard some stuff akin to the Disney soundtracks, some bits from Lion King mostly. Didn't John say at one point he was inspired by Disney soundtracks? Like Frozen or something?

[BeatriceNB]

I definitely heard some stuff akin to the Disney soundtracks, some bits from Lion King mostly. Didn't John say at one point he was inspired by Disney soundtracks? Like Frozen or something?

I remember JP making comparisons to Disney, yeah.

I think he means there was a melting pot of styles across the first eight albums. Not every album had a mix of styles (jazz, classical, etc.).

Well, the Astonishing certainly throws into the pot a new musical ingredient.

What style of music is that? Disney is not a genre of music.

I've never heard any jazz influence in DT...not a good or a bad thing, but I just don't think it's there.

It's there. If you're willing to start a thread about it, I'll list them.

DT members have listened to Jazz and Jazz Fusion. There's no denying that. And you surely can trace influences and licks/fills (I have mentioned in another thread that Mangini sometimes reminds me of Chad Wackerman).
But I'm in the field of thought that Jazz is not a sound , Jazz is an ethos. And Dream Theater don't follow it; improvisation is the most important aspect of Jazz, and DT music has none of that.

[Tony From Long Island]

Shout out to the OG Long Island Dream Theater fans!!!

I miss shows at the Sundance!!!!

Sadly, I never got to see them at Sundance.  I think I was 16 years old the last time they played there, but my old guitarist (a Petrucci student at the time) saw them there several times.   My first DT show was at a shithole in Deer Park called SPARKS in December of 1992 or January of 1993.    I still have the ticket signed by JP.   Saw them at the Paramount in 2018 and I'm going to Brooklyn in November. I talked my wife into going with me 

[rab7]

Beauty and the Beast? Alladin? Lion King?

I can't make any other comparisons, but The Answer definitely sounds similar to I Can Go The Distance from Hercules

[Kotowboy]

Brother Can You Hear Me... sounds a lot like a song from Church...

Also this thread has 101 pages now - Can we get a new one ?

[Architeuthis]

   It's quite impressive that a thread about a new album allready has 101 pages nearly a month and a half before its release..   is this a first?

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

please God and DT....release some new music already!!!!

[Lonk]

  It's quite impressive that a thread about a new album allready has 101 pages nearly a month and a half before its release..   is this a first?

TA went on to 225 pages!

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44903.msg2086599#msg2086599

[IDontNotDoThings]

Brother Can You Hear Me... sounds a lot like a song from Church...

Also this thread has 101 pages now - Can we get a new one ?

Brother, Can You Hear Me sounds like a song from church 

some things never change, I guess

[hefdaddy42]

It's arguable that Train of Thought is actually more popular than Scenes

No it isn't.

[darkshade]

I definitely heard some stuff akin to the Disney soundtracks, some bits from Lion King mostly. Didn't John say at one point he was inspired by Disney soundtracks? Like Frozen or something?

I remember JP making comparisons to Disney, yeah.

I think he means there was a melting pot of styles across the first eight albums. Not every album had a mix of styles (jazz, classical, etc.).

Well, the Astonishing certainly throws into the pot a new musical ingredient.

What style of music is that? Disney is not a genre of music.

I've never heard any jazz influence in DT...not a good or a bad thing, but I just don't think it's there.

It's there. If you're willing to start a thread about it, I'll list them.

DT members have listened to Jazz and Jazz Fusion. There's no denying that. And you surely can trace influences and licks/fills (I have mentioned in another thread that Mangini sometimes reminds me of Chad Wackerman).
But I'm in the field of thought that Jazz is not a sound , Jazz is an ethos. And Dream Theater don't follow it; improvisation is the most important aspect of Jazz, and DT music has none of that.

Without going into specifics, the whole solo trade off thing between guitar and keys that DT do, comes from the jazz tradition of soloists taking the spotlight.
There's a lot of jazzy sounds scattered about on IaW, Awake, and FII, as well as on SDoIT and even ADTOE, with flashes here and there on other albums.
I never claimed DT played any actual jazz, or improvised in a jazz setting. They do improvise live though (or did with MP in the band) as do LTE.
Same thing with a band like Planet X, who have incorporated some swing into their music, but they are predominantly prog metal, but with many jazzy influences mixed in.

There is a lot of jazz out there, so much that I don't think anyone could listen to all of it in a lifetime. It may be an ethos to an extent, but there are so many styles, and there is stuff out there that is clearly jazz, but the biggest jazz heads and "purists" would claim "is not jazz". A lot of jazz heads think Miles Davis' music after the late 60s is not jazz. Listen to Tribal Tech, they are almost prog-metal but are clearly jazz-fusion with a guitarist who likes to get heavy once in a while. The band Watchtower could not seem to decide on whether they are a technical prog metal band, or a jazz-fusion band who can thrash.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, but there's no jazz in DT.  Multiple members have certainly studied/been influenced by certain jazz or jazz fusion players, but there is no jazz component to the music of Dream Theater.

They "jam" in the studio to lead to composed pieces, and their improvisation (when they do it) live is not like jazz improv; it's closer to what jam bands do. 

[darkshade]

It's arguable that Train of Thought is actually more popular than Scenes

No it isn't.

Going by sales alone, it is, at least in the USA

Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory
Released: October 26, 1999
Label: Elektra
Format: CD, CS, LP
US: 123,275

Train of Thought
Released: November 11, 2003
Label: Elektra
Format: CD, CS, LP
US: 125,000

from wikipedia, so take with grain of salt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Theater_discography

I also recall a few years back, there were 3x as many reviews for ToT on Amazon.com than there were for Scenes.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, that's meaningless.

[darkshade]

Yeah, but there's no jazz in DT.  Multiple members have certainly studied/been influenced by certain jazz or jazz fusion players, but there is no jazz component to the music of Dream Theater.

They "jam" in the studio to lead to composed pieces, and their improvisation (when they do it) live is not like jazz improv; it's closer to what jam bands do.

Jam bands like Phish, Grateful Dead, Gov't Mule, etc... are clearly inspired by jazz. They don't have to be walking bass lines and swing rhythms to be jazz influenced.
Jazz has evolved beyond swing, bebop, post-bop, hard bop. Those styles are over 50 or more years old now.
Plenty of jazz out there that is composed music, it's called Third Stream.
Anyway, I said DT was inspired by some jazz music in the early days, mainly 70s and 80s fusion, and it came out in the music they made. They weren't trying to replicate Kind of Blue or anything.

[darkshade]

Yeah, that's meaningless.

I backed up my claims with what data I could find quickly. Is there data that contradicts? I'd like to see sales for Japan and Europe.

Scenes surely has a reputation as a prog classic, but I would bet younger fans are into ToT more than Scenes.
ToT was also massively controversial when it was released, I read more discussion about that album over the years, than I have for Scenes or any other DT album other than IaW, throughout the internet, whether it be on progarchives (where Scenes does has more reviews than ToT I think), metal archives, Steve Hoffman, and any other prog or metal sites I've visited.

[Architeuthis]

  It's quite impressive that a thread about a new album allready has 101 pages nearly a month and a half before its release..   is this a first?

TA went on to 225 pages!

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=44903.msg2086599#msg2086599

Wow thanks!  However, I wonder if it reached anywhere near that point a month and a half before the album release?

[jayvee3]

Yeah, that's meaningless.

I backed up my claims with what data I could find quickly. Is there data that contradicts? I'd like to see sales for Japan and Europe.

Scenes surely has a reputation as a prog classic, but I would bet younger fans are into ToT more than Scenes.
ToT was also massively controversial when it was released, I read more discussion about that album over the years, than I have for Scenes or any other DT album other than IaW, throughout the internet, whether it be on progarchives (where Scenes does has more reviews than ToT I think), metal archives, Steve Hoffman, and any other prog or metal sites I've visited.

If one album has a reputation as a prog classic and one doesn't, maybe there's a reason...

Sales can often be misleading and sales could potentially have been inflated for TOT because of the success of Scenes years earlier, solidifying the popularity of the band as a heavyweight within the Prog music genre.

There is a favourite 4 album thread on this very forum from not long ago. Scenes literally has 100 more votes than TOT. If you are going to make the statement that "It's arguable that Train of Thought is actually more popular than Scenes", then we have to take into consideration how popularity for the two has fared over time.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, that's meaningless.

I backed up my claims with what data I could find quickly. Is there data that contradicts? I'd like to see sales for Japan and Europe.

Scenes surely has a reputation as a prog classic, but I would bet younger fans are into ToT more than Scenes.
ToT was also massively controversial when it was released, I read more discussion about that album over the years, than I have for Scenes or any other DT album other than IaW, throughout the internet, whether it be on progarchives (where Scenes does has more reviews than ToT I think), metal archives, Steve Hoffman, and any other prog or metal sites I've visited.

Unless the difference in sales between albums by the same artist is massive, it's probably irrelevant.  Besides, just because more people may have bought TOT doesn't mean that they all liked it.  Sales figures count just as much for people disappointed in a given album as they do for people who love it.

Also, comparing sales figures is not a component when comparing greatness or impact.  Is Eagles: Best of Volume 1 a bigger, more impactful album than Songs in the Key of Life?  Of course not.

[jayvee3]

Yeah, that's meaningless.

I backed up my claims with what data I could find quickly. Is there data that contradicts? I'd like to see sales for Japan and Europe.

Scenes surely has a reputation as a prog classic, but I would bet younger fans are into ToT more than Scenes.
ToT was also massively controversial when it was released, I read more discussion about that album over the years, than I have for Scenes or any other DT album other than IaW, throughout the internet, whether it be on progarchives (where Scenes does has more reviews than ToT I think), metal archives, Steve Hoffman, and any other prog or metal sites I've visited.

Unless the difference in sales between albums by the same artist is massive, it's probably irrelevant.  Besides, just because more people may have bought TOT doesn't mean that they all liked it.  Sales figures count just as much for people disappointed in a given album as they do for people who love it.

Also, comparing sales figures is not a component when comparing greatness or impact.  Is Eagles: Best of Volume 1 a bigger, more impactful album than Songs in the Key of Life?  Of course not.

This.

[jayvee3]

I dont know what anyone is hearing in Octavarium to make himself think THAT album marks the end of any era. My opinion, is that Octavarium marks the beginning of a descent that didn't reverse course until 2011. As I look at the Octavarium track list, I can't see what anyone thinks is so great about that album.

And most definitely, this.

[Enigmachine]

If jazz was a part of DT in the first 8 albums... that didn't die, if you're going by that standard. IT has multiple jazz-inspired moments like that swung main riff with a lot of bluesy flourishes or that crazy piano cycle that happens just after the vocal part in The Pursuit of Truth. Hell, the trade-offs might be condensed, but they're still there and a fairly regular part of the band's sound. If we're going to call Take the Time jazz influenced, I'm not sure why it wouldn't also apply to S2N, A Life Left Behind or Surrender to Reason (plus The Alien, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt in that regard).

I find the idea of the first chord of Dystopian Overture defining songs as far reaching as Chosen, The X Aspect, Moment of Betrayal, Hymn of a Thousand Voices, The Gift of Music and Ravenskill... a bit reductionist, to say the least. It's likely the most eclectic album of their discography with relatively few contenders. Just because a common thread is a few louder textures in the form of distorted guitar chords, it doesn't discount that.

Also... I love Octavarium too, but I don't know about it being a classic DT album. I know this argument is probably pretty well worn out by now, but when you've got two songs that are almost plagiarised from others (These Walls being startlingly close to Linkin Park's From the Inside and Never Enough being a DTised Stockholm Syndrome by Muse) and more that are nevertheless startlingly similar to the styles of other bands, it begins to feel more like a 'best of early 00s, done by DT, plus a few new songs' album than a classic DT album. Not to mention, The Answer Lies Within feels like a pretty par-for-the-course alt-rock ballad that does little to distinguish itself even for what it is, nevermind how it's imo already eerily similar to Anna Lee stylistically (itself also seemingly cut from the same cloth as contemporary radio-ready stuff without really making it their own, though I do like both songs still).

I can give them props for trying these different things, but it's another question as to whether I think it made those songs uniquely theirs. I think there's a difference between imitation and integration. Scenes might have moments like Home with sections that feel suspiciously similar to other bands (Tool in that case), but it's usually limited to a riff or two and they tend to morph the entire package something more distinct. That's not to say there aren't still moments like the former with stuff like Build Me Up, Break Me Down, The Looking Glass and Paralyzed, but it feels like the exception more than the rule. If I was to recommend a definitive album to someone unfamiliar with the band, Octavarium would be near last in my list of considerations for that reason.

Also agreed with the point before that IT's classical orchestra was something unheard of in studio DT. Yes, it was part of a wider epic... but it's not exactly a fleeting moment either, not to mention that the melodic character of the song takes on a symphonic angle that wasn't necessarily done before in that kind of reflective, maybe Romantic-era style with the Tchaikovsky vibes, distinct from how Six Degrees did it (even disregarding the orchestra being all MIDI there). I'd also say that Pale Blue Dot's own harmonic style is pretty unique too, with that kind of tense, spacey dissonance being a feature even throughout the vocal parts.

As for the popularity of Scenes vs Train of Thought, you could probably do with using more modern metrics. Scenes has a significant leg-up on Train of Thought as each have weathered the test of time, I think it's fair to say. I'll also add that to say Train of Thought added something to the DT sound is something of a stretch. Between The Mirror, Lie, Caught in a Web, The Glass Prison, Blind Faith Home, Burning My Soul etc. I'd say the precedent was pretty clearly set out. It just put the spotlight on the metallic elements that were already there. Hell, even the rap thing they'd already done on Just Let Me Breathe. If someone was to say that DT stopped stretching out their sound since Six Degrees and that their classic era ended with that, I'd say that's a fairer and more consistent assessment but I'd still disagree with it on the basis of The Astonishing introducing a decent amount of new (much of it at the very least uncommon) sounds to the table.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I definitely heard some stuff akin to the Disney soundtracks, some bits from Lion King mostly. Didn't John say at one point he was inspired by Disney soundtracks? Like Frozen or something?

I remember JP making comparisons to Disney, yeah.

I think he means there was a melting pot of styles across the first eight albums. Not every album had a mix of styles (jazz, classical, etc.).

Well, the Astonishing certainly throws into the pot a new musical ingredient.

What style of music is that? Disney is not a genre of music.

I've never heard any jazz influence in DT...not a good or a bad thing, but I just don't think it's there.

It's there. If you're willing to start a thread about it, I'll list them.

DT members have listened to Jazz and Jazz Fusion. There's no denying that. And you surely can trace influences and licks/fills (I have mentioned in another thread that Mangini sometimes reminds me of Chad Wackerman).
But I'm in the field of thought that Jazz is not a sound , Jazz is an ethos. And Dream Theater don't follow it; improvisation is the most important aspect of Jazz, and DT music has none of that.

Without going into specifics, the whole solo trade off thing between guitar and keys that DT do, comes from the jazz tradition of soloists taking the spotlight.
There's a lot of jazzy sounds scattered about on IaW, Awake, and FII, as well as on SDoIT and even ADTOE, with flashes here and there on other albums.
I never claimed DT played any actual jazz, or improvised in a jazz setting. They do improvise live though (or did with MP in the band) as do LTE.
Same thing with a band like Planet X, who have incorporated some swing into their music, but they are predominantly prog metal, but with many jazzy influences mixed in.

There is a lot of jazz out there, so much that I don't think anyone could listen to all of it in a lifetime. It may be an ethos to an extent, but there are so many styles, and there is stuff out there that is clearly jazz, but the biggest jazz heads and "purists" would claim "is not jazz". A lot of jazz heads think Miles Davis' music after the late 60s is not jazz. Listen to Tribal Tech, they are almost prog-metal but are clearly jazz-fusion with a guitarist who likes to get heavy once in a while. The band Watchtower could not seem to decide on whether they are a technical prog metal band, or a jazz-fusion band who can thrash.

It's a bit rich to say/suggest that trading off solos is showing evidence of jazz influence. I mean, technically, any band that routinely solos might be able to claim that too-- even Slayer. That's not the type of influence we are talking about.

Ultimately, I am not denying that DT has mixed in various influences over the years. I am just saying I don't see how they did any MORE of that pre-SC vs today. Maybe DoT was the most stripped down, raw, album we had heard in a while. That still leaves 3 out of 4 albums in which I am not hearing a less diverse palate of musical influences vs. what I heard before. We will see what happens with DT15 but I again don't hear any foreign influences in Octavarium, ToT, or even SFAM (minus one 15 second passage of rag time influenced music) that makes me think the band was incorporating more musical diversity in the old days. If anything, one could say ToT (in the alleged classic era) was even more stripped down than DoT.

[Buddyhunter1]

These Walls being startlingly close to Linkin Park's From the Inside

I thought These Walls was supposed to be another Muse ripoff, according to this forum.

Hot take but it's one of the best songs they've ever put out, so I don't really care if it's derivative (perhaps) or doesn't really follow their usual style (not a bad thing).

[MirrorMask]

These Walls being startlingly close to Linkin Park's From the Inside

I thought These Walls was supposed to be another Muse ripoff, according to this forum.

Hot take but it's one of the best songs they've ever put out, so I don't really care if it's derivative (perhaps) or doesn't really follow their usual style (not a bad thing).

These Walls is indeed amazing and I want more stuff like that from them.

[Enigmachine]

These Walls being startlingly close to Linkin Park's From the Inside

I thought These Walls was supposed to be another Muse ripoff, according to this forum.

Hot take but it's one of the best songs they've ever put out, so I don't really care if it's derivative (perhaps) or doesn't really follow their usual style (not a bad thing).

Maybe it's just me, but I've never seen anyone say that. Probably just people painting the album with that brush because that's the comparison that's more recognised with other songs. From the Inside has pretty much the same chord progression, general dynamic contrast and groove as These Walls. I also didn't say that it it makes the song bad. Much like The Answer Lies Within and Never Enough, I appreciate the song a fair bit. It has a great ambience, has a really pleasant reflective mood and shows a good deal of textural attention to detail. I just personally think that labelling it as a classic doesn't sit right because (and I get that it's an arbitrary distinction), I would consider a classic something that best represents the band. I think this is why, despite Octavarium being one of the most popular DT albums, it doesn't seem to have generally been recognised as a classic on the same level of Images, Scenes or even Awake and Six Degrees that (I think it's fair to say) sound more definitively and uniquely DT. From what I've seen, at least.

[Lonk]

I have not listen to Linkin Park in over 15 years, so I had to go back and remind myself of From The Inside (good song, forgot about it honestly). Now it kind of bothers me that These Walls DOES sounds like that song  Still great song though.

[Enigmachine]

I have not listen to Linkin Park in over 15 years, so I had to go back and remind myself of From The Inside (good song, forgot about it honestly). Now it kind of bothers me that These Walls DOES sounds like that song  Still great song though.

Yep. Probably one of the first DT songs I heard, so even though I'll call it derivative, I still love the nostalgic vibes it gives.

[lovethedrake]

Not a big fan of "These Walls".   Sounds like DT going commercial and JP sounds uninspired for the first time in DT history. 

To me Octavarium was the first time I was like "This is Dream Theater?"   The album has grown on me through the years and I do actually listen to it a fair amount but I was incredibly disappointed when it first came out.

Train of Thought isn't my favorite album but it still sounded inspired and like Dream Theater was moving the needle.

Octavarium through ADTOE sounded like a band going through the motions to me. 

Now before anyone freaks out ....Dream Theater "going through the motions" is still arguably a top 10 band for me.   It just wasn't the brilliance and magic we had on the preceding albums.

The Astonishing and DOT brought some of that magic back IMO and I am extremely excited for the new album.