DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[devieira73]

Hopefully they're not going to kill it with a 3-5 minute orchestral section in the middle.

Although I love IT, just because of that, I don't "hear" it like a proper epic. It sounds to me like a suite of 3 related songs. So, I'm still  waiting for a true big epic from Mangini era.

[gzarruk]

I liked that middle part at first, but now I skip it almost every time I listen to IT. It kills the flow of the song, specially the long ambient part before the strings start, it's too long. TCOT did it much better.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Hopefully they're not going to kill it with a 3-5 minute orchestral section in the middle.

Man, this times infinity.   

It's likely they use that orchestrated part to catch their breath. The rest of the song is absolutely BRUTAL for all members.

[TAC]

They managed just fine with ITPOE live.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Hopefully they're not going to kill it with a 3-5 minute orchestral section in the middle.

That's the best thing about that song, for me at least. I love it when DT does things like that. I'd gladly take that beautiful string interlude over an 20+ minute progressive onslaught with a predictable form/structure, as that has been done so many times by so many bands.

[TAC]

Hopefully they're not going to kill it with a 3-5 minute orchestral section in the middle.

That's the best thing about that song, for me at least. I love it when DT does things like that. I'd gladly take that beautiful string interlude over an 20+ minute progressive onslaught with a predictable form/structure, as that has been done so many times by so many bands.

But at this point, that section has become predictable.

[Ben_Jamin]

Hopefully they're not going to kill it with a 3-5 minute orchestral section in the middle.

Man, this times infinity.   

It's likely they use that orchestrated part to catch their breath. The rest of the song is absolutely BRUTAL for all members.

I could see that. Arranging it to give them that nice break before the onslaught of Live, Die, Kill. Also to give JLB the necessary break to belt out those vocals live.

[geeeemo]

I could see that. Arranging it to give them that nice break before the onslaught of Live, Die, Kill. Also to give JLB the necessary break to belt out those vocals live.

And boy did James belt those vocals out fabulously!! ....I think I am going to go watch the video now. I have probably watched this one more than any other video in the last year.

[Max Kuehnau]

Hopefully they're not going to kill it with a 3-5 minute orchestral section in the middle.

Man, this times infinity.   

It's likely they use that orchestrated part to catch their breath. The rest of the song is absolutely BRUTAL for all members.

I could see that. Arranging it to give them that nice break before the onslaught of Live, Die, Kill. Also to give JLB the necessary break to belt out those vocals live.

No, The Pursuit Of Truth. Live Die Kill appears before the orchestral middle movement.

[Ben_Jamin]

Hopefully they're not going to kill it with a 3-5 minute orchestral section in the middle.

Man, this times infinity.   

It's likely they use that orchestrated part to catch their breath. The rest of the song is absolutely BRUTAL for all members.

I could see that. Arranging it to give them that nice break before the onslaught of Live, Die, Kill. Also to give JLB the necessary break to belt out those vocals live.

No, The Pursuit Of Truth. Live Die Kill appears before the orchestral middle movement.

Oh yeah. I always get those two mixed up.

[IDontNotDoThings]

I'd support an ambient section in the epic as long as it flows well. TCOT & Octavarium both have ambient sections that work fine in the context of the song. IT is more of an exception in that regard, & I just hope it's not one they repeat.

[geeeemo]

What do we think the chances are for an ambient section?? I say 75%

[Sebastián Pratesi]

Interesting song lengths:

TA 09:32: The Apple
ATC 07:35: All The Carrots
IM 06:02: Imaginary Mango
SG 10:05: Space Garlic
TT 6:25: Tremendous Taco
ATM 9:47: About That Mango
AVFTTOTW 20:24: A Very Fine Tomato to overthrow The Watermelon.

Relevant: https://youtu.be/uXGQnc_y-10

[darkshade]

I used to be excited to hear a new epic piece was going to be on a new DT album.

Now I worry.

[noxon]

It would be pretty relentless if a song went on for 20 minutes with the same energy, or ever increasing energy throughout. All of the DT epics have breaks in them throughout the songs that lead into new sections, some earlier, some later... Don't get why this is something to freak out over...

[Bertie_Wooster]

They should have gotten Jon Anderson to sing something during the ambient part.
Of "Illumination theory"

[wolfking]

I love IT as it is, but I'd love a 20 minute balls out assault.

[geeeemo]

I love the Temple of Circadia...something akin to that...

[Raise the Drum]

A Change of Seasons is pretty much balls out all of the 23 mins of length that it has.
it has a quiet part but doesn't ever need ambient.
i feel like the ambient card is a little overused in the last epics.

I can't help to think to myself, "if you need a whole section to recharge your batteries, why make the song so long then?"

[Lax]

Imagine it's a 7 minutes song with 12 minutes of silence and then 1 minute of noodling to end the album

[CodyWanKenobi]

I wonder if this is the order the songs will be sequenced in or if that'll actually be different. Starting the album out with a 9.5 minute long track would be a pretty sweet change from the last few albums.

[Dedalus]

Imagine it's a 7 minutes song with 12 minutes of silence and then 1 minute of noodling to end the album

[ReaPsTA]

my body is ready

[MirrorMask]

I wonder if this is the order the songs will be sequenced in or if that'll actually be different. Starting the album out with a 9.5 minute long track would be a pretty sweet change from the last few albums.

I think it is the proper order, but, speaking generally, they never really had the bigass epic as the centerpiece of the album. Something like Lines in the Sand if Trial of Tears didn't exist on FII, or Home on SFAM if Finally Free didn't exist.

It's not that they didn't have long songs in the middle of the album, but the "epic closer" has always been a thing. It would be something new if the big epic would be in the middle of the record and the final track would be something mellow and calmer, a là Beneath the Surface.

[Peter Mc]

It would be pretty relentless if a song went on for 20 minutes with the same energy, or ever increasing energy throughout. All of the DT epics have breaks in them throughout the songs that lead into new sections, some earlier, some later... Don't get why this is something to freak out over...

I agree that the song should ebb and flow, not looking for 20 min of shredding, but I don't want a point like in IT and, to a lesser extent, TCOT where it pretty much comes to a juddering halt for a significantly long period.  Where you're sat there twiddling your thumbs waiting for the song to come back.

[Seppe76]

Hi guys! My first post, from Itlay

TA 09:32
ATC 07:35
IM 06:02
SG 10:05
TT 6:25
ATM 9:47
AVFTTOTW 20:24

Reminds me the structure of Six Degrees...

[IDontNotDoThings]

Welcome!

I think it reminds me more of Train Of Thought, because of the consistency of the 9-10 minute songs (like TOT's consistently 10-11 minute songs), with the 5th track being shorter & the final track being the longest. The main difference being the length of the epic & the average length of the other songs coming down a bit to balance it out.

Could also just be that it's the other 7 song album that's around 69 minutes though.

[KevShmev]

Hopefully they're not going to kill it with a 3-5 minute orchestral section in the middle.

That's the best thing about that song, for me at least. I love it when DT does things like that. I'd gladly take that beautiful string interlude over an 20+ minute progressive onslaught with a predictable form/structure, as that has been done so many times by so many bands.

Agreed.  I gave Illumination Theory a fresh listen recently, and the orchestral section is still one of my favorite parts of it.  I still like the song overall quite a bit, but I found that some of the moments have aged a bit awkwardly.  But hey, not every long epic is gonna be like A Change of Seasons where everything sticks to landing. 

[noxon]

Plus, consider the fact that ACOS had the chance to mature over 5 years of development, with sections cut and sections added throughout to make it what it is now...

[Buddyhunter1]

NO SAPPY 3-4 MINUTE BALLAD AS THE 2ND-TO-LAST SONG

...Hopefully that doesn't mean we're getting a 9 minute sappy ballad as the 2nd-to-last song.

[Ben_Jamin]

Plus, consider the fact that ACOS had the chance to mature over 5 years of development, with sections cut and sections added throughout to make it what it is now...

Yup, listen to the live in NY Ytsejam bootleg and you will hear how the song would have sounded like it it was released on Images and Words.

It does not sound the same at all. Even the lyrics have changed dramatically.

[LordJordan]

First post for me too, and from Italy too as Seppe76!

I have various thoughts:
1) speaking of orchestra parts, there's a version of Illumination Theory called Theory of Illumination, you can find it on the tube: basically, the orchestration is put at the beginning of the song and yes, it's a strange kind of progressive metal (stranger than having in the middle, for sure) but it works...
2) I hope that AVFTTOTW will have 20 minutes of real music: it kinda disappointed me when I discovered how much silence was there in the 22 minutes of IT
3) I still think there will be another song or two at the end of the album but I will be happy even with this 69 minutes of music
4) that terrible intro and vocal melody from the old A Change of Seasons (soure: the Images and Words demos)...

[Mark Levinson Jr.]

Epic.

A Very Fine Time To Open The Window.

Between this and Maiden, I'm excited.

Post-COVID19

Also, new Blind Guardian.

[kirksnosehair]

It would be pretty relentless if a song went on for 20 minutes with the same energy, or ever increasing energy throughout. All of the DT epics have breaks in them throughout the songs that lead into new sections, some earlier, some later... Don't get why this is something to freak out over...

I think we all recognize that most epics have ebbs and flows in the energy of the song.  That's not the problem with Illumination Theory.  The problem with Illumination Theory is one of context, or more precisely an utter and complete lack of context.  Allow me to explain: If you listen to The Count of Tuscany, the low ambient section with the guitar volume swell melodies is actually a well-crafted ambient break in the song that references melodic ideas from earlier in the piece.  In that context it works rather fluidly and feels very organic. 


Illumination Theory's ambient break is completely detached from the song they stuck it in.  I find no melodic, rhythmic or any other musical reference to anything.  It's completely out of context.  There is nothing wrong with the part itself.  In fact, it's quite beautiful.  But jamming into the middle of that song?  Bad idea because it's completely out of context.   

[Enigmachine]

Illumination Theory's ambient break is completely detached from the song they stuck it in.  I find no melodic, rhythmic or any other musical reference to anything.  It's completely out of context.  There is nothing wrong with the part itself.  In fact, it's quite beautiful.  But jamming into the middle of that song?  Bad idea because it's completely out of context.

...Other than a direct reference to the very first melody in the song? That is, if you're including the orchestral part here, too.