DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[erwinrafael]

I don't get how an album with gems like At Wit's End, Barstool Warrior, and S2n can be considered an undercooked album.

[RandalGraves]

I don't get how an album with gems like At Wit's End, Barstool Warrior, and S2n can be considered an undercooked album.

I think those are amazing tracks - some of their best in the Mangini era - but I don't think D/T is their best either. Undercooked is definitely not the right term, as no amount of time is going to equate to how good or bad a track is. There was definitely a way to word it better than the other user, hahah. For me personally, their first three tracks are a bore (They've had much better singles than Untethered Angel, Paralyzed is a lesser BMU, BMD, and Fall into the Light does nothing for me). The album really picks up for me with Barstool Warrior through At Wit's End. Those tracks are fresh, they're fun and they really deliver. The rest of the album after...is just okay. Out of Reach is an okay ballad. I'll never switch over to it, but if it's end I let it play out. Pale Blue Dot has a killer opening riff, but I don't think the rest of the track lives up to your typical epic closer. Viper King is a fun bonus track, but I consider it exactly that; a bonus.

So with that all that, D/T is an album for me that is some insanely solid tracks surrounded by some filler. And my most controversial opinion...is that I think the production is kinda trash. The guitars and drums are all the way up, and the keys and vocals are buried in the mix (not to mention I don't care for some of the effects).

But whatever. It's okay to have different opinions about an album. DT has been doing it's thing for a while and I'd argue none of it is surprising at this point. Maybe a few new elements here and there, but they pretty consistently deliver what they're known for. And I'll always be there first day to enjoy a good portion of it.

[geeeemo]

I don't get how an album with gems like At Wit's End, Barstool Warrior, and S2n can be considered an undercooked album.

I think those are amazing tracks - some of their best in the Mangini era - but I don't think D/T is their best either. Undercooked is definitely not the right term, as no amount of time is going to equate to how good or bad a track is. There was definitely a way to word it better than the other user, hahah. For me personally, their first three tracks are a bore (They've had much better singles than Untethered Angel, Paralyzed is a lesser BMU, BMD, and Fall into the Light does nothing for me). The album really picks up for me with Barstool Warrior through At Wit's End. Those tracks are fresh, they're fun and they really deliver. The rest of the album after...is just okay. Out of Reach is an okay ballad. I'll never switch over to it, but if it's end I let it play out. Pale Blue Dot has a killer opening riff, but I don't think the rest of the track lives up to your typical epic closer. Viper King is a fun bonus track, but I consider it exactly that; a bonus.

So with that all that, D/T is an album for me that is some insanely solid tracks surrounded by some filler. And my most controversial opinion...is that I think the production is kinda trash. The guitars and drums are all the way up, and the keys and vocals are buried in the mix (not to mention I don't care for some of the effects).

But whatever. It's okay to have different opinions about an album. DT has been doing it's thing for a while and I'd argue none of it is surprising at this point. Maybe a few new elements here and there, but they pretty consistently deliver what they're known for. And I'll always be there first day to enjoy a good portion of it.

This is an excellent take.

[Max Kuehnau]

I finally got around to listening to that Mistress Carrie podcast to confirm that MM actually said it'd be out in September. If anyone else wants to do the same, it's in the last 5 minutes of a 2 hour podcast, so it might save you some time to know that.

I think the thing that struck me about it was his certainty of it. He didn't say "around September"; he directly said "the plan is to release it in September (paraphrasing)", & I think the album's too early in development to give that kind of precise estimation. My theory is that September is the deadline that the label gave to the band. If that's the case, the label's probably planned their release schedule around that (for reasons others have discussed above), so I imagine that's when they'll release it, even if it's finished earlier than expected.

This is just speculation, & idk if it adds anything to the discussion, but I wanted to share my thoughts.

I just added the podcast interview link into the timeline. Thanks very much. Sorry it took so long.

[kirksnosehair]

I don't get how an album with gems like At Wit's End, Barstool Warrior, and S2n can be considered an undercooked album.

I think those are amazing tracks - some of their best in the Mangini era - but I don't think D/T is their best either. Undercooked is definitely not the right term, as no amount of time is going to equate to how good or bad a track is.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.  I think the original criticism here is a valid one.  "Undercooked" might be an odd way of putting it, but there is definitely a correlation between the amount of time spent working on something and its relative quality.  It is literally impossible to produce a high quality full album recording (45 minutes or more) in the studio in 3 days.  But if you take your time with it, say, 30 days instead of 3, and you spend that time fully developing all of the ideas that make the final cut I would venture to say that you will be producing a superior product to that of a project rushed through recording and post-production in a shorter amount of time. 


Now obviously I wasn't in the studio with Dream Theater when they recorded Distance over Time but to me quite a bit of the material feels underdeveloped, particularly Pale Blue Dot, which I think was a huge missed opportunity.  I'm also not fond of some of the production choices that were made, but that's a pretty minor gripe.  But to say that "no amount of time is going to equate to how good or bad a track is" well, with all due respect, you're wrong.  Time in the studio matters.  Time spent developing a composition matters.  Sure, at some point you're just going to be needlessly tinkering, but I know every song I've ever written has benefitted from more time spent in the refinement process and the quality of my recorded output is always better when I spend more time paying attention to details.     

[gzarruk]

I don't get how an album with gems like At Wit's End, Barstool Warrior, and S2n can be considered an undercooked album.

I think those are amazing tracks - some of their best in the Mangini era - but I don't think D/T is their best either. Undercooked is definitely not the right term, as no amount of time is going to equate to how good or bad a track is.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.  I think the original criticism here is a valid one.  "Undercooked" might be an odd way of putting it, but there is definitely a correlation between the amount of time spent working on something and its relative quality.  It is literally impossible to produce a high quality full album recording (45 minutes or more) in the studio in 3 days.  But if you take your time with it, say, 30 days instead of 3, and you spend that time fully developing all of the ideas that make the final cut I would venture to say that you will be producing a superior product to that of a project rushed through recording and post-production in a shorter amount of time. 


Now obviously I wasn't in the studio with Dream Theater when they recorded Distance over Time but to me quite a bit of the material feels underdeveloped, particularly Pale Blue Dot, which I think was a huge missed opportunity.  I'm also not fond of some of the production choices that were made, but that's a pretty minor gripe.  But to say that "no amount of time is going to equate to how good or bad a track is" well, with all due respect, you're wrong.  Time in the studio matters.  Time spent developing a composition matters.  Sure, at some point you're just going to be needlessly tinkering, but I know every song I've ever written has benefitted from more time spent in the refinement process and the quality of my recorded output is always better when I spend more time paying attention to details.   

... unless it's Chinese Democracy

Joking aside, I agree with most of your post, it's important to let music (or art in general) breathe and get developed more as time passes. Usually, it helps to let the ideas rest for some time and get back to them with a fresh mind to be more objective about it, as not everything is as good (or as bad) as it originally sounds.

Speaking about D/T, though, they wanted to continue with the shorter/concise songrwriting approach, so they clearly didn't want to make stuff longer or more developed than it originally was. At least that's the product THEY wanted to make and were/are happy with it being that way, vs having someone else dictate what you should/shouldn't do (like FII, for example).

[Kotowboy]

Maaaaan. how many Dream theater albums were released in the time between Use Your Illusion II and Chinese Democracy ?

9 ? 10 ?

UYI was when ? 91 ? 

So in the gap between Use Your Illusion II and Chinese Democracy - Dream Theater released

• Images And Words
• Awake
• Falling into Infinity
• Metropolis part II : Scenes From A Memory
• Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
• Train Of Thought
• Octavarium
• Systematic Chaos

[kirksnosehair]

I don't get how an album with gems like At Wit's End, Barstool Warrior, and S2n can be considered an undercooked album.

I think those are amazing tracks - some of their best in the Mangini era - but I don't think D/T is their best either. Undercooked is definitely not the right term, as no amount of time is going to equate to how good or bad a track is.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.  I think the original criticism here is a valid one.  "Undercooked" might be an odd way of putting it, but there is definitely a correlation between the amount of time spent working on something and its relative quality.  It is literally impossible to produce a high quality full album recording (45 minutes or more) in the studio in 3 days.  But if you take your time with it, say, 30 days instead of 3, and you spend that time fully developing all of the ideas that make the final cut I would venture to say that you will be producing a superior product to that of a project rushed through recording and post-production in a shorter amount of time. 


Now obviously I wasn't in the studio with Dream Theater when they recorded Distance over Time but to me quite a bit of the material feels underdeveloped, particularly Pale Blue Dot, which I think was a huge missed opportunity.  I'm also not fond of some of the production choices that were made, but that's a pretty minor gripe.  But to say that "no amount of time is going to equate to how good or bad a track is" well, with all due respect, you're wrong.  Time in the studio matters.  Time spent developing a composition matters.  Sure, at some point you're just going to be needlessly tinkering, but I know every song I've ever written has benefitted from more time spent in the refinement process and the quality of my recorded output is always better when I spend more time paying attention to details.   

... unless it's Chinese Democracy

Joking aside, I agree with most of your post, it's important to let music (or art in general) breathe and get developed more as time passes. Usually, it helps to let the ideas rest for some time and get back to them with a fresh mind to be more objective about it, as not everything is as good (or as bad) as it originally sounds.

Speaking about D/T, though, they wanted to continue with the shorter/concise songrwriting approach, so they clearly didn't want to make stuff longer or more developed than it originally was. At least that's the product THEY wanted to make and were/are happy with it being that way, vs having someone else dictate what you should/shouldn't do (like FII, for example).

I get what you're saying but you might be misunderstanding me a little bit.  I am not saying more time spent on the songs = longer songs, nor am I saying that spending more time developing songs and ideas is going to equal longer songs.  That's NOT what I'm saying at all.  I'm talking purely about the relative quality of the songs.  I mean, I get the point that was being made and in many ways I agree that time isn't everything and some songs are just not good, regardless of how much time is spent working on them.  But I will say this:  I spent about 6 weeks on the songs for my group's debut album and looking back I really wish I had spent more like 6 months at a minimum because on the next one that we're working on now, I've been working on these songs now for about 2 years and without exception everyone who has heard the demos has commented on the significant increase in quality across the board.  Better songs, better hooks, better choruses, better riffs, better melodies, more interesting arrangements, less bloat, no head-scratching moments, no tracks or sections or solos that I wish I'd done differently. 

Every single one of those improvements is 100% a function of the time I spent working on the material, refining things, making little changes that improved how a solo or riff came across, etc. 


Chinese Democracy is a perfect example of going overboard with refinements, but I am sure there is a high degree of Axel-generated delay in there too, not just him working on the songs constantly for more than a decade, but him being a drunken idiot who couldn't get out of his own way was probably a bigger factor than anything else.  I mean look at him.  Dude has never met a beer he didn't drink 30 of.

[MirrorMask]

Well, we all know how much time they had to develop A Change of Seasons, and we know how the song started and how it ended up on the 1995 EP; can't say the more time working on the song hurt it, or ruined it with too much overthinking on the musical side of it.

And also, we've gotten some actual lyrics for the ending rather than just a repetition of "please don't go".

Of course every piece of art is not dictated by strict and precise mathematical rules and it's not a law that the more you work on a song, the better it becomes, but from the early days of the band I don't see we have a single song where we can say "eh, the time waiting for James LaBrie to show up hurt this song, it was better as a demo".

[jonny108]

Jordan is now tracking his keys according to Patreon. 

[Max Kuehnau]

Jordan is now tracking his keys according to Patreon.

added in, thanks very much

[illusionist]

Jordan is now tracking his keys according to Patreon.

That's the most relevant post in this topic in the last few pages.
Thanks for sharing this.

[Bertielee]

Jordan is now tracking his keys according to Patreon.

That's the most relevant post in this topic in the last few pages.
Thanks for sharing this.

[Max Kuehnau]

Speaking of relevant posts, as more of a side note: Since Mike mentioned his solo album in the beginning of last year as well (in conjunction with DT15), some may be interested to know that said solo album is apparently well under way as well. It apparently will even include him singing (oddly enough), see here: https://www.facebook.com/MikeMangini/posts/260248032131338
"-Solo Album: Music was finished in 2020. Vox addressed ASAP."

and btw, I've again changed the thread title to reflect the current state of affairs.

[lucasembarbosa]

Speaking of relevant posts, as more of a side note: Since Mike mentioned his solo album in the beginning of last year as well (in conjunction with DT15), some may be interested to know that said solo album is apparently well under way as well. It apparently will even include him singing (oddly enough), see here: https://www.facebook.com/MikeMangini/posts/260248032131338
"-Solo Album: Music was finished in 2020. Vox addressed ASAP."

and btw, I've again changed the thread title to reflect the current state of affairs.

Could be a sample of him teaching astrophysics or reading an essay about Fibonacci sequence, not necessarily singing...

[gzarruk]

Jordan is now tracking his keys according to Patreon.

That's the most relevant post in this topic in the last few pages.
Thanks for sharing this.

The sad thing is that the album is being released in 6-7 months from now, so there's not much "real" stuff to discuss anyway

Speaking of relevant posts, as more of a side note: Since Mike mentioned his solo album in the beginning of last year as well (in conjunction with DT15), some may be interested to know that said solo album is apparently well under way as well. It apparently will even include him singing (oddly enough), see here: https://www.facebook.com/MikeMangini/posts/260248032131338
"-Solo Album: Music was finished in 2020. Vox addressed ASAP."

and btw, I've again changed the thread title to reflect the current state of affairs.

Could be a sample of him teaching astrophysics or reading an essay about Fibonacci sequence, not necessarily singing...

I take it as the album having vocals, but not necessarily him recording them. He's said multiple times before that he's not a very good singer, even though apparently Nuno had him doing backup vocals on a few Extreme shows.

[Setlist Scotty]

Speaking of relevant posts, as more of a side note: Since Mike mentioned his solo album in the beginning of last year as well (in conjunction with DT15), some may be interested to know that said solo album is apparently well under way as well. It apparently will even include him singing (oddly enough), see here: https://www.facebook.com/MikeMangini/posts/260248032131338
"-Solo Album: Music was finished in 2020. Vox addressed ASAP."

and btw, I've again changed the thread title to reflect the current state of affairs.

Could be a sample of him teaching astrophysics or reading an essay about Fibonacci sequence, not necessarily singing...

I take it as the album having vocals, but not necessarily him recording them. He's said multiple times before that he's not a very good singer, even though apparently Nuno had him doing backup vocals on a few Extreme shows.

That was my thought as well - the post that's been cited gives no guarantees that MM's doing the vocals.

[devieira73]

MM seems to want to make this album a full instatement of him as musician, including composing and playing all the instruments (he already said somewhere he would be recording all of them by himself). My bet is that, if there's any vocals on his album, he will sing it.

[Max Kuehnau]

Speaking of relevant posts, as more of a side note: Since Mike mentioned his solo album in the beginning of last year as well (in conjunction with DT15), some may be interested to know that said solo album is apparently well under way as well. It apparently will even include him singing (oddly enough), see here: https://www.facebook.com/MikeMangini/posts/260248032131338
"-Solo Album: Music was finished in 2020. Vox addressed ASAP."

and btw, I've again changed the thread title to reflect the current state of affairs.

Could be a sample of him teaching astrophysics or reading an essay about Fibonacci sequence, not necessarily singing...

I take it as the album having vocals, but not necessarily him recording them. He's said multiple times before that he's not a very good singer, even though apparently Nuno had him doing backup vocals on a few Extreme shows.

That was my thought as well - the post that's been cited gives no guarantees that MM's doing the vocals.

then I made the mistake of paraphrasing it the way I did. Very sorry. (and honestly, it would have surprised me hearing him sing ) Nonetheless, I'm excited for Mike's solo album as much as for DT15.

[illusionist]

I am not excited for MM solo album.
That is not to say that i don't like,or appreciate him as a musician.
I just haven't heard anything of him,prior to DT,so i don't know his musical influences,
as well his melodic style (because he is a drummer obviously)
If i listen to it,and like it,then i may anticipate his next (if he ever releases another one)
I was waiting for JP album,because i have heard his entire discography,and love his music.
I love JR sounds and i will most probably listen to his album (not buy,listen) when it comes out.
And now i am looking forward to LTE and DT 15,since i love both bands.
But MM and JLB working on new solo albums is great news for DT fans regardless.
It reminds me of the times 20 years ago,where all of them were working on their side projects at the same time.
The Jelly Jam,Platypus,Gordian Knot,Explorers Club,LTE,Mullmuzzler,Transatlantic,Petrucci-Rudess acoustic etc.
That was a pretty inspired period with all these releases.
Ah,so many memories...

PS. I don't (almost noone does,except DT themselves) know neither how the new material sounds, nor how much time was needed to write it.
But i would have liked them to take their time with this one,because it won't be released till September,so it would be a great change to their routine
to try many many things before they end up with the final product.
It would be the time to experiment with sounds,demos,and many other things.
The more time they spend on the writing process,the better the album will be,in my opinion.
Anyways,hope they have come up with a killer new album,and the most promising thing i heard was MM saying about vintage DT melodies that weaved in the new material 🤟

[kirksnosehair]

MM seems to want to make this album a full instatement of him as musician, including composing and playing all the instruments (he already said somewhere he would be recording all of them by himself). My bet is that, if there's any vocals on his album, he will sing it.

I get why he wants to do it that way, but it's a terrible idea that he will most likely regret in the long run.

[gzarruk]

Speaking of Mike's album, here's a little snippet of music made by him (he confirms it's his in the comments): https://www.instagram.com/p/CLXuBKvhBQt/?igshid=portly0mb98f

[Architeuthis]

I am not excited for MM solo album.
That is not to say that i don't like,or appreciate him as a musician.
I just haven't heard anything of him,prior to DT,so i don't know his musical influences,
as well his melodic style (because he is a drummer obviously)
If i listen to it,and like it,then i may anticipate his next (if he ever releases another one)

I would encourage you to listen and perhaps buy it if you like it. I'm sure it will have some good stuff, and I guarantee the drumming is good. 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

MM seems to want to make this album a full instatement of him as musician, including composing and playing all the instruments (he already said somewhere he would be recording all of them by himself). My bet is that, if there's any vocals on his album, he will sing it.

I get why he wants to do it that way, but it's a terrible idea that he will most likely regret in the long run.

I think I see it a bit differently than you. Writing a solo album where you actually do everything (or close to it) is a pretty remarkable achievement. Even if people hate it, he still went for it and did something not a lot of people have the gonads to do. He may regret it more if he never goes for it. More power to him, I say.

[Architeuthis]

MM seems to want to make this album a full instatement of him as musician, including composing and playing all the instruments (he already said somewhere he would be recording all of them by himself). My bet is that, if there's any vocals on his album, he will sing it.

I get why he wants to do it that way, but it's a terrible idea that he will most likely regret in the long run.

I think I see it a bit differently than you. Writing a solo album where you actually do everything (or close to it) is a pretty remarkable achievement. Even if people hate it, he still went for it and did something not a lot of people have the gonads to do. He may regret it more if he never goes for it. More power to him, I say.

Absolutely this! 

[CodyWanKenobi]

MM seems to want to make this album a full instatement of him as musician, including composing and playing all the instruments (he already said somewhere he would be recording all of them by himself). My bet is that, if there's any vocals on his album, he will sing it.

I get why he wants to do it that way, but it's a terrible idea that he will most likely regret in the long run.

Silly statement with no explanation as to why you think that way.

[geeeemo]

I would really like to hear an FII sound on this new record. It's groovy, bluesy and the atmosphere is just cool. Not sure why its  not a more popular record. 

[Fritzinger]

I would really like to hear an FII sound on this new record. It's groovy, bluesy and the atmosphere is just cool. Not sure why its  not a more popular record. 

I love Falling Into Infinity. In my opinion, it also the best sounding DT album of all. Transparent but forceful. Also, MP's drums have never sounded better for me (maybe only on Neal Morse's Sola Gratia and Sons Of Apollo's debut).

[hefdaddy42]

I would really like to hear an FII sound on this new record. It's groovy, bluesy and the atmosphere is just cool. Not sure why its  not a more popular record. 

I love Falling Into Infinity. In my opinion, it also the best sounding DT album of all. Transparent but forceful. Also, MP's drums have never sounded better for me (maybe only on Neal Morse's Sola Gratia and Sons Of Apollo's debut).

I agree that FII is the best sounding DT album.

[Kotowboy]

Some parts of Octavarium ( mainly These Walls ) sound like they were recorded outside


I'd love to try that as a production experiment. Set up a band in the middle of a field - and record them playing individually.

No reflections - no baffling or any of that stuff. Just to see how it sounds when you put it all together.

[Ben_Jamin]

Some parts of Octavarium ( mainly These Walls ) sound like they were recorded outside


I'd love to try that as a production experiment. Set up a band in the middle of a field - and record them playing individually.

No reflections - no baffling or any of that stuff. Just to see how it sounds when you put it all together.

It'll be hard due to the mics picking up the wind, and other sounds. I've been thinking about this too. It'd have to be somewhere nice and quiet, like in the mountains.

It would be cool to record by a stream.

I think if done right, it would sound fantastic.

[pg1067]

I agree that FII is [a] DT album.

Concur.

[Kotowboy]

I couldn't rank all 14 DT albums in terms or sonic production but

Octavarium and Falling Into Infinity are definitely up the top whilst Systematic Chaos and DT12 are near the bottom - for being too hot and dry and DT12 has THAT snare sound.

Distance Over Time sounds good to me - but still a little hot but not as bad as SC or DT12.



ADTOE is not bad but the drums are too low and not punchy enough. Astonishing is really nice as well actually !

I remember the first time I heard The Gift Of Music - I thought it sounded like "About To Crash".

[ZirconBlue]

It'll be hard due to the mics picking up the wind, and other sounds. I've been thinking about this too. It'd have to be somewhere nice and quiet, like in the mountains.

I can see the headline now:  "Local band killed in avalanche".

[Kotowboy]

That would definitely happen to Adrenaline Mob.