DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[evilasiojr]

I wish they make a walkthrough/tour around the studio so we can meet their new HQ! I'm really curious about it.

[gzarruk]

How about a double album in the vain of 6DOIT?  One disk with a massive epic (this satisfies us who would like another long epic), and a disc with shorter more concise tunes like DOT?

I'm in

[pg1067]

How about a double album in the vain of 6DOIT?  One disk with a massive epic (this satisfies us who would like another long epic), and a disc with shorter more concise tunes like DOT?

Sure.  If it's good.

How about a double album in the vein of Tales from Topographic Oceans with four songs that are roughly 20 minutes long each?

Sure.  If it's good.

How about an album with nothing but four minute hit singles?

Sure.  If it's good.

[MoraWintersoul]

Just to clarify...when you refer to "the KM songs" and "his songs," you're talking about SDV (written entirely by KM) and what else?  He wrote lyrics for 6:00 and Lie, but the music for those songs was composed by the band as a whole.

In the Awake liner notes MP says 6:00 was 80% Kevin's. Lie is more of a whole band thing, but his newer (at the time) influences are pretty visible in it, since he worked on the vocal melodies alone.

[Kram]

How about a double album in the vain of 6DOIT?  One disk with a massive epic (this satisfies us who would like another long epic), and a disc with shorter more concise tunes like DOT?

How about a double album in the vein

Good catch!

[Kotowboy]

Sure.  If it's good.

How about a double album in the vein of Tales from Topographic Oceans with four songs that are roughly 20 minutes long each?

Sure.  If it's good.

How about an album with nothing but four minute hit singles?

Sure.  If it's good.

Right. I Love Octavarium . But I did sigh a little when I first read that Black Clouds & Silver Linings was only 6 tracks long.

I'm glad they stopped doing massive songs for the most part from A Dramatic Turn of Events onwards ( bar the odd 13 min song and Illumination Theory )...

If they ever did an album which was literally four 20 min epics - i'd hope that they had skippable sections within.

Say like 4 mini sections in each Six Degrees style. So 16 tracks in total so you can skip to your fave part.

[pg1067]

In the Awake liner notes MP says 6:00 was 80% Kevin's.

My Awake CD booklet contains no such notes.

[TAC]

I am in full support of everything Scotty posted.

I am in full support of everything Chris posted.

[Cool Chris]

But I did sigh a little when I first read that Black Clouds & Silver Linings was only 6 tracks long.

Likewise. The comparisons MP laid out didn't help.

Funny that you bring this up - specifically about IaW. Because originally Surrounded, AD and especially PMU didn't exist originally. It was only because Derek Oliver encouraged them to write some new songs while things were getting sorted out...

Huh, I never knew that! Did they just think they had enough material?

[TAC]

Well, they had A Change Of Seasons, and that took up 20 minutes.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Funny that you bring this up - specifically about IaW. Because originally Surrounded, AD and especially PMU didn't exist originally. It was only because Derek Oliver encouraged them to write some new songs while things were getting sorted out...

Huh, I never knew that! Did they just think they had enough material?

They had Don't Look Past Me, To Live Forever, & A Change Of Seasons in place of the songs Scotty mentioned (plus Wait For Sleep).

[Cool Chris]

I knew about TLF, but did not realize ACoS was at a point where they considered it 'album ready.'

[Setlist Scotty]

Funny that you bring this up - specifically about IaW. Because originally Surrounded, AD and especially PMU didn't exist originally. It was only because Derek Oliver encouraged them to write some new songs while things were getting sorted out...

Huh, I never knew that! Did they just think they had enough material?

They had Don't Look Past Me, To Live Forever, & A Change Of Seasons in place of the songs Scotty mentioned (plus Wait For Sleep).

Although WFS was added later too. So initially, the tracks that they were going to record were (in no specific order):
Metropolis
Don't Look Past Me
To Live Forever
Take the Time
Under a Glass Moon
Learning to Live
A Change of Seasons

I know I've posted about this before, but for those who may have missed it: another interesting thing of note is that originally Metropolis was supposed to open the album, and PMU was to be the first track on "side 2". But the label wanted PMU as the opening track and for the album to be named "Dream Theater" instead of IaW. Ultimately the band and label compromised - the band got the album title they wanted, and the label got the running order that they wanted.

I knew about TLF, but did not realize ACoS was at a point where they considered it 'album ready.'

It was - but in it's original form. I take it you haven't read the Lifting Shadows biography, because the topic of how the band weren't permitted to record ACoS for IaW is mentioned in there. IIRC, they were told on the first day of recording that they wouldn't be permitted to record it, so the sessions started on a down note.

[Cool Chris]

That is still one kickass album!

I have not read Lifting Shadows and do not know much about the band's early history so I am sorry if I am ignorant about stuff most hardcore fans know.

[Setlist Scotty]

I have not read Lifting Shadows and do not know much about the band's early history so I am sorry if I am ignorant about stuff most hardcore fans know.

No apology necessary Chris. But you should pick up a copy of the biography. It's a great read and I'm sure you'll find a lot of interesting tidbits that you didn't know about, just like this. 

[Max Kuehnau]

I have not read Lifting Shadows and do not know much about the band's early history so I am sorry if I am ignorant about stuff most hardcore fans know.

No apology necessary Chris. But you should pick up a copy of the biography. It's a great read and I'm sure you'll find a lot of interesting tidbits that you didn't know about, just like this. 

yes, it's a worthwhile read. As I always say, reading Lifting Shadows is as exciting as DT's music. Seriously.

[MoraWintersoul]

In the Awake liner notes MP says 6:00 was 80% Kevin's.

My Awake CD booklet contains no such notes.

I'm sorry, it's the Awake *demos* liner notes. I don't have the physical release, but on the youtube video that has all the demos, someone uploaded scans of the thing, that's where I read that.

So initially, the tracks that they were going to record were (in no specific order):
Metropolis
Don't Look Past Me
To Live Forever
Take the Time
Under a Glass Moon
Learning to Live
A Change of Seasons

This is still a fantastic album. But it's not as iconic as the one we ended up with. And the version of ACoS that would have ended up on this album doesn't beat the version we would have gotten later. When you listen to ACoS '95, you kind of hear it all, all the circumstances, all the frustrations, Derek is out to prove himself, the lyrics are sharp as fuck.

[pg1067]

Funny that you bring this up - specifically about IaW. Because originally Surrounded, AD and especially PMU didn't exist originally. It was only because Derek Oliver encouraged them to write some new songs while things were getting sorted out...

Huh, I never knew that! Did they just think they had enough material?

According to the FAQ at MP's website:  "While the band waited for the deal with Atco to be finalized in the middle of 1991, their A&R man, Derek Oliver encouraged them to continue writing songs.
This resulted in them writing Pull Me Under, Surrounded, Another Day and Wait for Sleep.  Having two new 'commercial' songs (Surrounded and Another Day) they opted to use them in exchange for the older songs (To Live Forever and Don't Look Past Me).  Derek Oliver expressed concern that including A Change of Seasons would take the album 'too far.'  After much arguing, the band agreed to leave the song off the album, as long as they could record it later as an EP."

Swapping out TLF and DLPM for Surrounded and Another Day obviously improved the album monumentally, and not having the breakout song PMU (originally titled "Oliver's Twist") would have had a huge impact.

I knew about TLF, but did not realize ACoS was at a point where they considered it 'album ready.'

Have you heard the live version from the March 4, 1993 NYC show?  If not, I highly recommend it.  There are many significant differences from the version that was released two years later.  I acquired a cassette copy of that show via *Prodigy sometime in late 1993 and was blown away by the song.  Then, when they released it in 1995, I went back and revisited it and was quite interested to hear how much it had changed.  There are a few things I wish they had left, but most of the changes improved the song (especially lyrically).

But you should pick up a copy of the biography. It's a great read and I'm sure you'll find a lot of interesting tidbits that you didn't know about, just like this. 

Completely agree (and this reminds me that I still haven't read the updated version).

I'm sorry, it's the Awake *demos* liner notes.

[faizoff]

I've been meaning to get the Lifting Shadows book, not sure why I haven't yet. So many sales came and went, I'll have to hunt the updated version.

[ZirconBlue]

I've been meaning to get the Lifting Shadows book, not sure why I haven't yet. So many sales came and went, I'll have to hunt the updated version.

Apparently, you can get it on Amazon, now.

[Cool Chris]

Have you heard the live version from the March 4, 1993 NYC show?  If not, I highly recommend it.  There are many significant differences from the version that was released two years later.  I acquired a cassette copy of that show via *Prodigy sometime in late 1993 and was blown away by the song.  Then, when they released it in 1995, I went back and revisited it and was quite interested to hear how much it had changed. 

Dang... I remember Prodigy. My rich kid friend (did everyone have that one friend growing up who was part of a wealthy family?) had Prodigy circa '93. My family didn't even have a computer. He met a girl in South (or was in North) Dakota via Prodigy. They fell in love. It was weird. All his friends couldn't understand how he 1) fell in love with with someone he a) never met in person, and b) lived 1,000 miles away, and 2) did it via a computer. 

Anyway... I heard that version once years ago. I have never been in to bootlegs, even DT's official bootlegs, so I didn't really connect with it. I had the EP version, and the Live Scenes version, so I had everything I needed.

I also don't know why I never picked up the book. I don't read many bios, maybe I felt content knowing what I knew about the band, which was mostly via this forum.

[TAC]

I've never even heard of Prodigy.

[pg1067]

Dang... I remember Prodigy. My rich kid friend (did everyone have that one friend growing up who was part of a wealthy family?) had Prodigy circa '93. My family didn't even have a computer. He met a girl in South (or was in North) Dakota via Prodigy. They fell in love. It was weird. All his friends couldn't understand how he 1) fell in love with with someone he a) never met in person, and b) lived 1,000 miles away, and 2) did it via a computer. 

I can relate.  I posted in detail about this on another thread a couple months ago, but this is basically how I met my wife.  In 1992 or early 1993, the guitar player in my band bought a computer and had this thing called TSN (The Sierra Network).  It had chat rooms and games, including a D&D style game called Shadow of Yserbius.  I played it a few times at his place and decided to get my own computer.  I signed up for TSN, and my wife was also on TSN while she was in grad school in Boston.  We met in one of the chat rooms, eventually moved up to phone calls, and she came out to see me a few months later.  I flew out there a month later, and she moved out here the following year.  Before she actually moved out here, I got a lot of, "are you sure she's not a guy?" questions.

I've never even heard of Prodigy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSr16eZDC0I

[Cool Chris]

That is a great story!

Watching that commercial... was the DJIA really around 2700 in 1991?? *checks.... and yes it was!

[devieira73]

About ACoS:
I have heard ACoS for the first time on The Dance of Eternity bootleg, that is from that 93' NY show - the same recording of the official bootleg release years later. I was not aware of the circunstances that ACoS was composed for I&W, but didn't make the final cut. By listening to that bootleg, I immediately thouhgt the song was totally amazing and I also thought that it was composed after the release of I&W. So you can imagine my deception when I bought Awake and in the back cover I didn't saw ACoS listed there...

[Pettor]

I really hope they continue what ever they did with DoT. The sound and energy is great and they got Mangini onboard! Even the length is something I appreciated. SDOIT is ofc the best albums ever created, but I don't feel any band could ever produce two such masterpieces in their lifetime. POS Panther also reminds me of how awesome "shorter" albums with great flow that never feels "draggy" us! DoT nearly succeeded perfectly with this.

[Max Kuehnau]

I really hope they continue what ever they did with DoT. The sound and energy is great and they got Mangini onboard! Even the length is something I appreciated. SDOIT is ofc the best albums ever created, but I don't feel any band could ever produce two such masterpieces in their lifetime. POS Panther also reminds me of how awesome "shorter" albums with great flow that never feels "draggy" us! DoT nearly succeeded perfectly with this.

well, we will see how it will turn out, but it has always been DT's "rule" (as it were) to never make the same record twice. (and that's a good thing IMHO) Some people here (myself included in this case) mentioned longer pieces again, because it's been seven years since the last one (just saying)

[Setlist Scotty]

About ACoS:
I have heard ACoS for the first time on The Dance of Eternity bootleg, that is from that 93' NY show - the same recording of the official bootleg release years later. I was not aware of the circunstances that ACoS was composed for I&W, but didn't make the final cut. By listening to that bootleg, I immediately thouhgt the song was totally amazing and I also thought that it was composed after the release of I&W. So you can imagine my deception when I bought Awake and in the back cover I didn't saw ACoS listed there...

I can relate - I was in a similar boat. Long before Awake was released, I had TDoE bootleg too. Can't say that I was of the belief that ACoS was written after the fact, since I read an article/interview with Charlie and KevMo from 1989 and Charlie commented on a song they were currently working on then that was up to 18 minutes in length, which I assumed was ACoS. Nonetheless, I expected that it would be on Awake. But the manager of a music store that I happened to frequent by mid-94 had attended the Concrete Forums gig that JR played at, and she very specifically told me that ACoS would not be on it, much to my dismay.

[devieira73]

Cool story, Scotty, we are dinosaurs... Only now I realised that that JR show with DT was before Awake was released!

[Max Kuehnau]

Cool story, Scotty, we are dinosaurs... Only now I realised that that JR show with DT was before Awake was released!

a week before my fourth birthday too

[TAC]

Cool story, Scotty, we are dinosaurs... Only now I realised that that JR show with DT was before Awake was released!

a week before my fourth birthday too

Two weeks before my 26th.

[IDontNotDoThings]

I wasn't born yet

[jonny108]

John just mentioned on the live Q&A that there's a cameraman there with them at the studio filming the writing process. Hope this means we get a documentary. 

[hunnus2000]

OK - I think I missed the boat. Are DT in the studio writing??? 

[Ben_Jamin]

John just mentioned on the live Q&A that there's a cameraman there with them at the studio filming the writing process. Hope this means we get a documentary.

He did say they hope to have that included, so we can see how psychotic they are with writing. That was a great story about how many interpretations they all play with for 4 notes, and then come to an agreement and say, that's the one. 

It was also confirmed that we are getting this album earlier than expected, due to the pandemic pushing their schedule up.

Also, That was a great cameo there by Mangini...He just wants to play "DHARTS" (accent).