Why don’t people like BMUBMD?

[bosk1]

Thanks to this thread, I got on a bit of a Red kick last week, and have had a couple of their songs stuck in my head the last couple of days. 

Anyway, this thread was a nice reminder (as if I needed one) that some of the band's more recent "short," concise songs like BMU/BMD and Forsaken, are just REALLY top notch, well-written, fun songs.

[TAC]

I think Forsaken is excellently written.

[bosk1]

I think Forsaken is excellently written.

If I were to do an ultimate DT prog metal mix tape (hmmm...not a bad idea for a title for their next "greatest hits" package, if they were to do one), Forsaken would likely be on it.

[MirrorMask]

Forsaken is awesome. Concise, catchy chorus, the melody changes differently in the verses... in an ideal world it would have been a smash crossover hit with people enjoying this on the radio.

[gzarruk]

Forsaken

[Herrick]

Herrick likes Forsaken as well.

[Architeuthis]

Forsaken is awesome. Concise, catchy chorus, the melody changes differently in the verses... in an ideal world it would have been a smash crossover hit with people enjoying this on the radio.

Most definitely! 
"Our New World" would be another good one, plus a few more from TA. 

[Volante99]

I always thought "These Walls" could have been a minor metal radio hit. It's just a tiny bit too long for that format unfortunately.

[Northern Lion]

I love Forsaken.  And it's one of the best videos they've done as well, imho.

[KevShmev]

Forsaken is one of their biggest disappointments to me ever.  Cool piano lead, nice vibe, and a great JP solo, and all for naught thanks to a bland chorus that somehow misses the mark.

[KidInTheDark666]

Many of the singles they've released in the past 15 years are among my favorite DT songs, especially Forsaken and A Rite of Passage. I assume it has a lot to do with my background as a more traditional metal listener, not so much a prog fan. I can see why those songs are disliked by the other half of the fan base though.

[gzarruk]

Many of the singles they've released in the past 15 years are among my favorite DT songs, especially Forsaken and A Rite of Passage. I assume it has a lot to do with my background as a more traditional metal listener, not so much a prog fan. I can see why those songs are disliked by the other half of the fan base though.

Love Forsaken, but I'm not a fan of A Rite of Passage. To me, Forsaken is a greatly crafted song, AROP isn't.

[Northern Lion]

Many of the singles they've released in the past 15 years are among my favorite DT songs, especially Forsaken and A Rite of Passage. I assume it has a lot to do with my background as a more traditional metal listener, not so much a prog fan. I can see why those songs are disliked by the other half of the fan base though.

I'm with you.  I was also originally a more traditional metal fan before I discovered DT.  I really like most of the singles they've released over the past few decades.  And, since discovering DT, they have become my favorite band.

Here's a list of singles that I like since Systematic Chaos:

Forsaken
TDEN
ARoP
Wither
OtBoA
BMUBMD
TEI
AFtR
TGoM
MoB
ONW
UA
FitL

These are the ones I think are just OK:

CM
TLG
Paralized

[hefdaddy42]

Forsaken is OK, I guess.  Hard to point out specific things wrong with the song itself. 

It just doesn't hold my interest.  It doesn't sound specifically DT to me.  *shrugs*

[Lupton]

Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.

[Volante99]

Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.

Agreed. Choruses are hard. It's the fatal "You Not Me" Paradox

[Dublagent66]

I like YNM too, but not as much as Forsaken.

[KidInTheDark666]

I think that both You Not Me, and especially Forsaken have great choruses. BMUBMD has a really good one too.

[pg1067]

Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.

Agreed. Choruses are hard. It's the fatal "You Not Me" Paradox

I moved past this when it was first posted a couple weeks ago, but now I'm too curious.  What the heck is the "'You Not Me' Paradox"?

[Volante99]

Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.

Agreed. Choruses are hard. It's the fatal "You Not Me" Paradox

I moved past this when it was first posted a couple weeks ago, but now I'm too curious.  What the heck is the "'You Not Me' Paradox"?

You Not Me...cool song up until the Desmond Child chorus. The worst chorus in DT's history, and maybe one of the worst choruses in rock and roll history. A chorus that would have completely derailed a lessor band's career. (I'm being dramatic but you get the point).

[MirrorMask]

Of course everyone's tastes and personal perceptions are valid, but.... really? what's wrong with the anthemic and bombastic chorus of FORSAKEEEEEEEN I HAVE COME FOR YOU TONIIIIIGHT? it's awesome!

And You Not Me's chorus is catchier and easier to remember than You Or Me's.

[Lupton]

It really just boils down to preference. It's not something that everyone is going to agree on...and as well we shouldn't. For me I think it's the cheesy keyboard stuff going on in the chorus that ruins it for me in Forsaken. It just sounds so lame and flaccid on a chorus that's already somewhat bland (or mediocre). There are times when I dig the hell out of that same fake string sound. The Underground Railroad's "Through And Through" has a moment near the end of that tune (16+ minute-ish?) which is a perfect example. Kurt Rongey's use of that patch rules there. Love it!  However, I absolutely loathe that same sounding patch in the Forsaken chorus for some reason. It's odd that. Horses for courses I suppose.

[pg1067]

Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.

Agreed. Choruses are hard. It's the fatal "You Not Me" Paradox

I moved past this when it was first posted a couple weeks ago, but now I'm too curious.  What the heck is the "'You Not Me' Paradox"?

You Not Me...cool song up until the Desmond Child chorus. The worst chorus in DT's history, and maybe one of the worst choruses in rock and roll history. A chorus that would have completely derailed a lessor band's career. (I'm being dramatic but you get the point).

Ok.  You like the song, except for the chorus.

What's the paradox?

And You Not Me's chorus is catchier and easier to remember than You Or Me's.

You Not Me is significantly better than You or Me.

[hunnus2000]

Forsaken is awesome. Concise, catchy chorus, the melody changes differently in the verses... in an ideal world it would have been a smash crossover hit with people enjoying this on the radio.

Most definitely! 
"Our New World" would be another good one, plus a few more from TA.

Another short and concise song off of TA is My Last Farewell. This song defines what DT is all about in just 3:44.

[Volante99]

Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.

Agreed. Choruses are hard. It's the fatal "You Not Me" Paradox

I moved past this when it was first posted a couple weeks ago, but now I'm too curious.  What the heck is the "'You Not Me' Paradox"?

You Not Me...cool song up until the Desmond Child chorus. The worst chorus in DT's history, and maybe one of the worst choruses in rock and roll history. A chorus that would have completely derailed a lessor band's career. (I'm being dramatic but you get the point).

Ok.  You like the song, except for the chorus.

What's the paradox?

And You Not Me's chorus is catchier and easier to remember than You Or Me's.

You Not Me is significantly better than You or Me.

Paradoxical in that it's a good song, terrible chorus. Okay so maybe its not a TRUE paradox...

The POINT is there have been times when DT struggled with choruses in otherwise good songs, You Not Me being a GREAT example of that.

Also, You or Me is miles better than You Not Me. The You Not Me chorus belongs on a 90s Motley Crue or Ratt album (go figure, it's Desmond Child). Its easily the worst thing DT have ever put on tape. Easily. 

[bosk1]

A band making some artistic choices that you disagree with does not mean they "struggled" in that area.   

[hefdaddy42]

You Not Me is NOT drastically better than You Or Me.

Both are pretty bad, and any difference either way is marginal at best.

[jammindude]

A band making some artistic choices that you disagree with does not mean they "struggled" in that area. 

To be fair, the band ultimately agreed to retool You or Me into You Not Me under label pressure.   True, in the end the band did ultimately agree to it, so it could be argued that it was "their choice".   But since outsider influence and label pressure was involved, I'm not sure you could say that it was the band's personal original intent in the "artistic choice" department.

[bosk1]

That is all true, but isn't really relevant to the point I was making.

[Northern Lion]

Just my 2 cents, but I also like You or Me more than You not Me.  I really like the Collective Soulesque middle part in You or Me.  I don't hate You not Me, I just like the other version better.

[Volante99]

A band making some artistic choices that you disagree with does not mean they "struggled" in that area. 

Fair enough, but in THIS case, you don't bring in Desmond Child because the writing is going great.

[Dublagent66]

I'm sure the writing would've been fine without DC.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm sure the writing would've been fine without DC.

"You Or Me" is the writing without DC.

Not great.  But the problem with it isn't "a lack of Desmond Child".

[MoraWintersoul]

That's always been one of the great mysteries of DT's career. Desmond Child writes pretty fucking catchy choruses. But "You Not Me" is just... no.

[Dublagent66]

I'm sure the writing would've been fine without DC.

"You Or Me" is the writing without DC.

Not great.  But the problem with it isn't "a lack of Desmond Child".

I don't remember saying anything about a problem.