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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: npiazza91 on January 19, 2020, 09:35:36 AM
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I always see it as a hated DT song around these parts, but I think it’s great and it even makes my top 50. Yeah it’s a bit on the simple side, but the main riff is badass and the chorus, especially the vocal melody is fantastic. The chorus here is almost on BITS level. The solo isn’t bad either. Overall it’s a very well constructed prog metal song that fun to listen to. It’s better than half the album to me, and I love ADTOE.
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I like it quite a bit, but it just feels kind of run-of-the-mill and nu-metalish. They also have way more interesting songs so it's natural that the straightforward ones will fall behind the others.
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I don't think it's hated.
At least I don't hate it, I'd rank it among other - let's say - simpler structured DT songs like Forsaken, Never Enough, A Rite Of Passage. And I'd rate it a lot higher than Paralyzed (which for me falls into that category but is a lot weaker because it just doesn't have a chorus).
I think it's good but it falls short a little because it's surrounded by a shitload of even better songs. Preceded by On The Backs, followed by Lost Not Forgotten. Of those three, it is definitely the weakest.
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I don't think it's hated.
At least I don't hate it, I'd rank it among other - let's say - simpler structured DT songs like Forsaken, Never Enough, A Rite Of Passage. And I'd rate it a lot higher than Paralyzed (which for me falls into that category but is a lot weaker because it just doesn't have a chorus).
I think it's good but it falls short a little because it's surrounded by a shitload of even better songs. Preceded by On The Backs, followed by Lost Not Forgotten. Of those three, it is definitely the weakest.
Hot take, but I think it’s way better than LNF tbh. I find LNF to be dry and boring, and it feels so much longer than it actually is. UAGM does the same thing soooo much better. I don’t dislike the song, but I do think it’s the weakest link on the album.
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I have to agree, Build Me Up, Break Me Down is definitely one of the most underrated DT songs imo.
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I like it. For being what it is it still has plenty of DT instrumental stamps on it. Good arrangement. Nice chorus. A solid tune.
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JLB shrieks on it. That's never good.
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Except that the shrieks are among the song's highlights.
But then again, there is also a pounding riff, refreshing electronic samples, thoughtful lyrics, anthemic chorus, glorious unison and a sinister outro. There's plenty to love about the song. I just think it was overshadowed by the remaining songs on the album that featured the classic Dream Theater sound and became classics.
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And I'd rate it a lot higher than Paralyzed (which for me falls into that category but is a lot weaker because it just doesn't have a chorus).
Something I'm wondering about: Why exactly wouldn't you call the a heart that feels no pain... part a chorus? Because it doesn't fell like one?
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I love BMUBMD!! Great work out tune. :metal
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I like the breakdown in the middle of it. I don’t think the song fits the production of ADTOE, BMUBMD would benefit from more bass, louder guitars and booming drums, but I thought it worked better live.
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Except that the shrieks are among the song's highlights.
But then again, there is also a pounding riff, refreshing electronic samples, thoughtful lyrics, anthemic chorus, glorious unison and a sinister outro. There's plenty to love about the song. I just think it was overshadowed by the remaining songs on the album that featured the classic Dream Theater sound and became classics.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
I also love the screams.
And when ever it comes on in a playlist, I turn that volume UP! :metal
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I really dislike it because it strikes me as DT at its most generic & uninteresting. That's really not a term I throw around lightly (as I do enjoy some of DT's more "formulaic" songs), but this is the only song in their discography that I can't see as anything but a group of cliches.
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I've been doing a full DT discography listen for the last couple weeks and I just finished ADTOE today, so the album and this song are fresh in my mind right now.
In my case, it's not that I don't like it, but it's surrounded by top quality DT songs, so it's the "least good" of the bunch. Yes, it's a "formulaic" and more "mainstream metal" song, but I'd take it any day over songs like Never Enough, Prophets of War, A Rite of Passage, half of FII... the list goes on. However, there's something about that song that just doesn't connect with me as some others, it just doesn't flow too well to me.
But then again, there is also a pounding riff, refreshing electronic samples, thoughtful lyrics, anthemic chorus, glorious unison and a sinister outro. There's plenty to love about the song. I just think it was overshadowed by the remaining songs on the album that featured the classic Dream Theater sound and became classics.
This is a great description, imo. The song does have all those things, but for whatever reason it falls short compared to the others. I also bolded the amthemic chorus part because, while listening to the album today, I noticed that most (if not all) songs on ADTOE have that amazing anthemic element in their choruses that just makes them sound super epic. Jordan's sound choiches and playing really highlight this too :metal
And just to add, I hadn't listened to ADTOE in a while, but man has it aged well. I consider this song and FFH to be the weak links of the album (not bad tho), but the rest of the songs are wonderful classic DT.
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BMUBMD is really good but I don't like those awful shrieks
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BMUBMD is really good but I don't like those awful shrieks
You mean the BUILD - ME - UP!!! parts? I completely removed them playing around with a sound editor and the songs works just fine without them.
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I am surprised so many people are having issues with the screaming section. In eight and a half years that the song has been discussed, I do not remember a single person complaining about the vocals. It was quite the opposite when the song came out, actually.
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I mean I never minded them so much when the album first came out but 9 years later I hear it and I'm like why did they choose to include that
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I liked it when it when the album first came out but it's aged terribly for me. Composition-wise it's just very underwhelming, and the album's weak production lessens its heaviness and makes that chunky main riff hit far less hard than it should.
Also, the parallels to Red's Feed The Machine that were brought up a while back didn't help the song's case for me, either. Structure and sound-wise they're just so similar that it's hard for me to ignore. It'd be one thing if the song was an improvement over the Red one, but while I don't think either song is particularly great, I'd probably say Feed The Machine's at least a little bit better.
Interestingly, I quite like Paralyzed, which mostly just feels like a second attempt at the same type of song. It's much chunkier, the main riff is better, and the vocal melodies are a big improvement, if you ask me.
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Also, the parallels to Red's Feed The Machine that were brought up a while back didn't help the song's case for me, either. Structure and sound-wise they're just so similar that it's hard for me to ignore.
It's so ironic that it was Mike Portnoy who pointed this out at first, when he did it way worse with Never Enough / Stockholm Syndrome :lol
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And I'd rate it a lot higher than Paralyzed (which for me falls into that category but is a lot weaker because it just doesn't have a chorus).
Something I'm wondering about: Why exactly wouldn't you call the a heart that feels no pain... part a chorus? Because it doesn't fell like one?
That's definitely a pre-chorus for me.
The tension from the verses is just starting to be released and when you think "yes, explode into some anthemic chorus!", the intro riff just comes back.
Imagine if the chorus of Forsaken would follow this section. A chorus like that would have made the song a lot better.
By the way, for the same reason I think that Coming Home by Sons Of Apollo is an absolutely superfluous song. Nobody would miss this bunch of senseless, melodyless riffs. Now, if instead of the main riff a nice soaring chorus would have followed that "is it me, is it you"-part, Coming Home would have at least been a cool, memorable rocker a la Elevate (Windery Dogs).
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I have never not liked this song. :2metal:
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Not listened to BMUBMD in a while but have no recollection of it having an anthemic chorus unless I’m mistaken as to what anthemic is. From memory, it’s a shouty chorus with little or no melody to speak of. When I think of anthemic choruses, I’m thinking Livin On A Prayer or something of that ilk, huge singalong melodic chorus.
I don’t hate it but would never make any kind of DT playlist for me, it’s not remotely a favourite.
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I have never not liked this song. :2metal:
This. I have always thought it was actually pretty great.
But to happily jump on another bandwagon point I've seen raised a couple of times in this thread, I think it's an easy song to overlook or downplay because it is surrounded by so many other songs that are just better. And that isn't necessary a negative at all. Not to sound like a broken record, but I'll go back to what I always say about this album: It is by far DT's most consistent album ever, IMO. There are so many strong songs that even the "weakest" are still very good.
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Not listened to BMUBMD in a while but have no recollection of it having an anthemic chorus unless I’m mistaken as to what anthemic is. From memory, it’s a shouty chorus with little or no melody to speak of. When I think of anthemic choruses, I’m thinking Livin On A Prayer or something of that ilk, huge singalong melodic chorus.
I don’t hate it but would never make any kind of DT playlist for me, it’s not remotely a favourite.
This is objectively incorrect. It has a noticeable melody - a stronger melody than in the verses - and the contour of the song takes a noticeable upward spike when the chorus kicks in. The only 'shouty' part is the 'BUILD! ME! UP!' part at the end, but "You build me up, you break me down and leave me fallen to pieces" is melodic af.
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The drumming.
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The drumming.
I'm a huge Mangini fan, but I would agree that this isn't one of his best drumming performances on ADTOE (or DT overall). There's a couple amazing fills in there, tho.
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For me, the issue lies with the production. It wants to sound like an aggressive heavy song, but the production makes it wimpy. I personally like the structure and the shrieks and the electronics that JR used. The live version on the Live at Luna Park release is pretty kick ass though.
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The song's all right. I only listen to it when I'm listening to the full album.
The whole thing with the Christian rock band was kind of embarrassing though.
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Definitely bottom of the barrel DT.
-Generic electronic sample #5 intro
-Nondescript Nu-Metal riff that would have fit right in on a Limp Bizkit album circa 2000
-Weird effects slathered all over LaBrie’s vocals
-Overbearing keys/synths that honestly don’t even need to be there
-BUUUIIILD MEEEEEH AAAAAHP BRRRREEEAAAAK MEEEH DAAAAAAWN!!!!
-Uplifting “anthemic” chorus which is a jarring transition to the rest of the song
-Even the usually reliable Petrucci lays down an unimaginative solo which sounds more like an arpeggio exercise more than anything
As a DT fan I don’t personally find it offensively bad, it’s just not good, and I can see plenty of reasons why it might turn someone off to the band. It’s the sort of thing I feel like the band could (and probably did) churn out in a few hours.
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I'm always glad when people like DT songs.... however, to me BMUBMD is by far the worst song on by far the worst album by DT.
It is probably top 3 worst DT songs IMO. It actually makes me cringe thinking of the chorus right now.
Sorry!
Listen to Learning to Live or About to Crash and then ask yourself why might a DT fan not like BMUBMD?
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Listen to Learning to Live or About to Crash and then ask yourself why might a DT fan not like BMUBMD?
Okay, done!
So...why might a DT fan not like a fantastic song like BMUBMD?
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Listen to Learning to Live or About to Crash and then ask yourself why might a DT fan not like BMUBMD?
Okay, done!
So...why might a DT fan not like a fantastic song like BMUBMD?
Um...he said ask yourself! ;D
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It's an OK song, on its own.
However, I have also heard the Red song which it inspired it, and it's a little too close for my tastes.
Also, kind of like bosky said, every other song on the album is better than BMUBMD. So, yeah.
If I'm playing the whole album, I usually listen to it. Otherwise, I never listen to it.
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-Generic electronic sample #5 intro
-Nondescript Nu-Metal riff that would have fit right in on a Limp Bizkit album circa 2000
-Weird effects slathered all over LaBrie’s vocals
-. . .
-BUUUIIILD MEEEEEH AAAAAHP BRRRREEEAAAAK MEEEH DAAAAAAWN!!!!
-Uplifting “anthemic” chorus which is a jarring transition to the rest of the song
-. . .
As a DT fan I don’t personally find it offensively bad, it’s just not good. . . .
I can't really disagree with all of this (although the "jarring" nature of the chorus compared to the rest of the song isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't even know if I'd say it's "not good," and I don't think I'd say I don't like it. It's certainly better than stuff like Repentance and Disappear, but it's definitely a bottom third DT song.
The whole thing with the Christian rock band was kind of embarrassing though.
Huh?
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The whole thing with the Christian rock band was kind of embarrassing though.
Huh?
"Feed the Machine" by Red
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The whole thing with the Christian rock band was kind of embarrassing though.
Huh?
"Feed the Machine" by Red
I couldn't tolerate that for more than about 75 seconds. Is there more to it than that both songs have 16th note riffs pedaling off a down-tuned 6th string (something that about 537 songs other songs also have in common)?
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I kind of lost track of Red after Release the Panic. Great band. Wonder what they're up to...
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The whole thing with the Christian rock band was kind of embarrassing though.
Huh?
"Feed the Machine" by Red
I couldn't tolerate that for more than about 75 seconds. Is there more to it than that both songs have 16th note riffs pedaling off a down-tuned 6th string (something that about 537 songs other songs also have in common)?
The Red song came first, and JP talked fairly openly about listening to it and being inspired by it during the writing of the album. Like I said, it's a little too close for me.
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I'm always glad when people like DT songs.... however, to me BMUBMD is by far the worst song on by far the worst album by DT.
:omg: have to disagree with that. ADTOE is my #2 after Scenes. And I dig BMUBMD and am a huge fan. Have seen them 6 times in 4 years - going to London for my 7th next month! :metal
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-Even the usually reliable Petrucci lays down an unimaginative solo which sounds more like an arpeggio exercise more than anything.
But it isn't a solo, it's a guitar/keyboard line, like they've done in a lot other songs (Never Enough, Untethered Angel, etc.). It's a completely different thing.
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I think that part of BMUBMD rules personally. I wish DT would double down on the guitar-keyboard dual melodies like in that part and Untethered Angel etc.
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The whole thing with the Christian rock band was kind of embarrassing though.
Huh?
"Feed the Machine" by Red
I couldn't tolerate that for more than about 75 seconds. Is there more to it than that both songs have 16th note riffs pedaling off a down-tuned 6th string (something that about 537 songs other songs also have in common)?
The Red song came first, and JP talked fairly openly about listening to it and being inspired by it during the writing of the album. Like I said, it's a little too close for me.
So I just listened to both songs back to back. I can see an influence in BMUBMD from Feed the Machine, but, at least to my ears, it's not a large one. It certainly doesn't sound like a copy/knock off. I think I could pretty easily enjoy both songs independently of each other. Just my thoughts though.
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I'm always glad when people like DT songs.... however, to me BMUBMD is by far the worst song on by far the worst album by DT.
It is probably top 3 worst DT songs IMO. It actually makes me cringe thinking of the chorus right now.
Sorry!
Listen to Learning to Live or About to Crash and then ask yourself why might a DT fan not like BMUBMD?
No need to apologize. If it makes you cringe, that's really no one else's problem or concern. Also, your comparison of LTL and ATC to BMUBMD is not valid because it's possible for any DT fan to like all three, not like all three or any combination in between. :biggrin:
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The whole thing with the Christian rock band was kind of embarrassing though.
Huh?
"Feed the Machine" by Red
I couldn't tolerate that for more than about 75 seconds. Is there more to it than that both songs have 16th note riffs pedaling off a down-tuned 6th string (something that about 537 songs other songs also have in common)?
The Red song came first, and JP talked fairly openly about listening to it and being inspired by it during the writing of the album. Like I said, it's a little too close for me.
So I just listened to both songs back to back. I can see an influence in BMUBMD from Feed the Machine, but, at least to my ears, it's not a large one. It certainly doesn't sound like a copy/knock off. I think I could pretty easily enjoy both songs independently of each other. Just my thoughts though.
Influence being the operative word. Musicians have been doing this FOR A LONG TIME - influenced by other artists. Hell - even Star Wars isn't original and don't get me started over the Blues genre.
Do they sound similar? Sure. Are they good songs? Yes. Do I care? No.
I will say that I really like DT's lyrics better. More concise and succinct.
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The whole thing with the Christian rock band was kind of embarrassing though.
Huh?
"Feed the Machine" by Red
I couldn't tolerate that for more than about 75 seconds. Is there more to it than that both songs have 16th note riffs pedaling off a down-tuned 6th string (something that about 537 songs other songs also have in common)?
The Red song came first, and JP talked fairly openly about listening to it and being inspired by it during the writing of the album. Like I said, it's a little too close for me.
So I just listened to both songs back to back. I can see an influence in BMUBMD from Feed the Machine, but, at least to my ears, it's not a large one. It certainly doesn't sound like a copy/knock off. I think I could pretty easily enjoy both songs independently of each other. Just my thoughts though.
:tup
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BMUBMD's chorus belongs on a JLB solo album for me, and it would have probably been ranked somewhere in the middle of all choruses on all three of them. That's one problem, the other problem is surrounding it with so much, well, Dream Theater stuff. I was glad when they started writing songs that are a liiiittle more to-the-point. I love 6+ minute songs, obviously, hell, I love 10+ minute songs, 20+ minute songs too. But this song, TDEN, some others, outstay their welcome just a bit.
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Not listened to BMUBMD in a while but have no recollection of it having an anthemic chorus unless I’m mistaken as to what anthemic is. From memory, it’s a shouty chorus with little or no melody to speak of. When I think of anthemic choruses, I’m thinking Livin On A Prayer or something of that ilk, huge singalong melodic chorus.
I don’t hate it but would never make any kind of DT playlist for me, it’s not remotely a favourite.
This is objectively incorrect. It has a noticeable melody - a stronger melody than in the verses - and the contour of the song takes a noticeable upward spike when the chorus kicks in. The only 'shouty' part is the 'BUILD! ME! UP!' part at the end, but "You build me up, you break me down and leave me fallen to pieces" is melodic af.
You’re quite right, like I said I haven’t listened to it in a while and I could only remember the shouty bit at the end, I was thinking that this was the chorus. Apologies, ignore me and carry on!
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BMUBMD's chorus belongs on a JLB solo album for me, and it would have probably been ranked somewhere in the middle of all choruses on all three of them. That's one problem, the other problem is surrounding it with so much, well, Dream Theater stuff. I was glad when they started writing songs that are a liiiittle more to-the-point. I love 6+ minute songs, obviously, hell, I love 10+ minute songs, 20+ minute songs too. But this song, TDEN, some others, outstay their welcome just a bit.
Agreed here. I think if it were 4 minutes long instead of 6 it would be an improvement. If I were to wear my producer hat, I’d turn Petrucci up, unplug Jordan, let Mangini go full on “Annihilator-mode” and lose the LaBrie shrieks. There’s a kick ass song in there somewhere.
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I'm always glad when people like DT songs.... however, to me BMUBMD is by far the worst song on by far the worst album by DT.
It is probably top 3 worst DT songs IMO. It actually makes me cringe thinking of the chorus right now.
Sorry!
Listen to Learning to Live or About to Crash and then ask yourself why might a DT fan not like BMUBMD?
No need to apologize. If it makes you cringe, that's really no one else's problem or concern. Also, your comparison of LTL and ATC to BMUBMD is not valid because it's possible for any DT fan to like all three, not like all three or any combination in between. :biggrin:
Yeah I knew that comment was weak when I wrote it but my point is that many people fell in love with a proggy DT with bright notes and soaring vocals. BMUBMD is just so different than that in every way imo. It’s a sluggish NU metal song.
Also... I know people like ADTOE and I actually did also when it first came out. I just think it’s aged terribly and outside of breaking all illusions I find very few reasons to go back to it. It’s generic modern DT at its worst.
I will say the Epic Novel part in Lost Not Forgotten is awesome but very short lived.
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I just went back and listened to it... I just can’t do it. The vocals are just the opposite of what I like in Labrie. His vocal performances on the last 3 albums make me wonder if it’s even the same singer on BMUBMD as he’s been fantastic lately.
As you can probably tell... I don’t like when he rasps. It was ok on awake because of how powerful his voice was but now as he’s gotten older the raspy sinister vocal just doesn’t work for me.
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One of the things I really love about DT is that the fanbase is so varied in what they like from the band. I think that is really cool. There are certainly stand out tracks that I think most of the fanbase would agree on, but I think that number is fairly small.
On ther other hand it seems you can pick almost any DT song and you'll find a group that loves it, a group that thinks it's so so and a group that doesn't like it at all. I think this thread showcases that pretty well.
I'm not sure we get that kind of variety form too many other bands. I could be wrong though, I haven't done any deep research or anything.
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On ther other hand it seems you can pick almost any DT song and you'll find a group that loves it, a group that thinks it's so so and a group that doesn't like it at all. I think this thread showcases that pretty well.
Someone should start the "why don't people like The Great Debate?" thread!
But yeah, I think you're spot on, although there are some songs at the top of the list that are almost universally loved. I don't think I've ever heard any DT fan say, "Learning to Live is trash!"
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BMUBMD is really good but I don't like those awful shrieks
You mean the BUILD - ME - UP!!! parts? I completely removed them playing around with a sound editor and the songs works just fine without them.
That's awesome. I would love to remove the stupid news clips from The Great Debate.
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For me, I like all the Dream Theater songs as they are. Like a painting - art - it is what they created. And as far as samples, growling, different vocal styles, "noodling", that all makes Dream Theater, Dream Theater. They have texture and variety. I am never bored - which happens with other bands I like.
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For me, I like all the Dream Theater songs as they are. Like a painting - art - it is what they created. And as far as samples, growling, different vocal styles, "noodling", that all makes Dream Theater, Dream Theater. They have texture and variety. I am never bored - which happens with other bands I like.
:tup Well said. I've come to appreciate just about everything they've done (on some level at least). Some of their music I absolutely love. Other songs are just sort of there, but I always find something interesting to latch onto when I listen back.
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I do like the song though.
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For me, I like all the Dream Theater songs as they are. Like a painting - art - it is what they created. And as far as samples, growling, different vocal styles, "noodling", that all makes Dream Theater, Dream Theater. They have texture and variety. I am never bored - which happens with other bands I like.
That’s true, but like any great art it’s ALSO fun to pick it apart and rip it to shreds ;) :angel:
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like any great art it’s ALSO fun to pick it apart and rip it to shreds
What a bizarre and unhealthy way of appreciating art.
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For me, I like all the Dream Theater songs as they are. Like a painting - art - it is what they created. And as far as samples, growling, different vocal styles, "noodling", that all makes Dream Theater, Dream Theater. They have texture and variety. I am never bored - which happens with other bands I like.
For DT, this is my take. Even when there's some songs I don't like as much as others, there's always something to enjoy about them.
... not all can be favorites, though ;)
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like any great art it’s ALSO fun to pick it apart and rip it to shreds
What a bizarre and unhealthy way of appreciating art.
It’s called “criticism” ; the discussion on the value and aesthetics of art and it has a tradition probably going as far back as when our ancestors painted on caves. Going beyond appreciation and making judgements is neither unhealthy and certainly not bizarre.
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I've always loved BMUBMD and was surprised when I perceived alot of dislike for it from others when it came out.
But I dig it. Dig the shrieks, dig the keyboard/guitar unison, dig the chorus.
A great song!
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I find myself asking this, not just with BMUBMD, but with almost every single Dream Theater has released, from Systematic Chaos to The Astonishing. They're all widely disliked by fans, but I cannot understand why.
The best example I can give is The Enemy Inside; amazing song, easily within my Top 30 DT songs, but it seems like barely anyone else likes it, and I have no idea why. Same goes for A Rite of Passage; I like it even better than TEI, but it feels like nobody else enjoys it.
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I find myself asking this, not just with BMUBMD, but with almost every single Dream Theater has released, from Systematic Chaos to The Astonishing. They're all widely disliked by fans, but I cannot understand why.
The best example I can give is The Enemy Inside; amazing song, easily within my Top 30 DT songs, but it seems like barely anyone else likes it, and I have no idea why. Same goes for A Rite of Passage; I like it even better than TEI, but it feels like nobody else enjoys it.
Agree on everything except AROP :P
The only interesting part of the song is the instrumental section and it feels like it was lifted from somewhere else and put there just because. The rest of the song just doesn't do it for me, specially Mike's vocals and the Bebot solo.
The guitar solo is :metal :metal :metal tho.
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I find myself asking this, not just with BMUBMD, but with almost every single Dream Theater has released, from Systematic Chaos to The Astonishing. They're all widely disliked by fans, but I cannot understand why.
The best example I can give is The Enemy Inside; amazing song, easily within my Top 30 DT songs, but it seems like barely anyone else likes it, and I have no idea why. Same goes for A Rite of Passage; I like it even better than TEI, but it feels like nobody else enjoys it.
I don't know where you're getting your information to support the two highlighted comments. I think it is true that the "singles" have ultimately proven not to be the consensus favorite songs on the various albums, but I think saying they're "all widely disliked" is untrue (except as it pertains to AROP).
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I find myself asking this, not just with BMUBMD, but with almost every single Dream Theater has released, from Systematic Chaos to The Astonishing. They're all widely disliked by fans, but I cannot understand why.
The best example I can give is The Enemy Inside; amazing song, easily within my Top 30 DT songs, but it seems like barely anyone else likes it, and I have no idea why. Same goes for A Rite of Passage; I like it even better than TEI, but it feels like nobody else enjoys it.
I don't know where you're getting your information to support the two highlighted comments. I think it is true that the "singles" have ultimately proven not to be the consensus favorite songs on the various albums, but I think saying they're "all widely disliked" is untrue (except as it pertains to AROP).
This. Thanks.
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I find myself asking this, not just with BMUBMD, but with almost every single Dream Theater has released, from Systematic Chaos to The Astonishing. They're all widely disliked by fans, but I cannot understand why.
The best example I can give is The Enemy Inside; amazing song, easily within my Top 30 DT songs, but it seems like barely anyone else likes it, and I have no idea why. Same goes for A Rite of Passage; I like it even better than TEI, but it feels like nobody else enjoys it.
I don't know where you're getting your information to support the two highlighted comments. I think it is true that the "singles" have ultimately proven not to be the consensus favorite songs on the various albums, but I think saying they're "all widely disliked" is untrue (except as it pertains to AROP).
Well, it did always seem to me like On the Backs of Angels & The Enemy Inside were a bit underrated, as in reduced to something like a "good single which features all of DT's trademarks" instead of the excellent microcosms of atmospheric chord progressions, strong lyrics, lots of emotional power and just overall profoundness that they are. Ofc, this is all subjective, but that's how I experience those songs. Untethered Angel would fall into a similar category if the vocals wouldn't sound so overprocessed.
To BMUBMD: I always really enjoyed it, but I can see how the more concise, structured songs kind of fall out of the pattern that DT usually follows and thus don't appeal to some of the fans in the same way.
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Dream Theater 's influences have a changed a lot over the years. When they first started they were into Yes, Marillion, Genesis, Rush combined with a heavier sound like Metallica. That is what made people fall in love with them back in the 90's.
Over the years their influences have expanded to included several bands that are quite different.
A song like BMUBMD does not sound like any of the bands I listed above. A song like the Enemy Inside is basically just a straight up metal song.
I personally don't like BMUBMD or TEI because they don't resemble the reason I got into DT in the first place. Does't mean they are bad, just could explain the confusion as to why some people, myself included, don't enjoy those types of songs by DT.
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Dream Theater 's influences have a changed a lot over the years. When they first started they were into Yes, Marillion, Genesis, Rush combined with a heavier sound like Metallica. That is what made people fall in love with them back in the 90's.
Over the years their influences have expanded to included several bands that are quite different.
A song like BMUBMD does not sound like any of the bands I listed above. A song like the Enemy Inside is basically just a straight up metal song.
I personally don't like BMUBMD or TEI because they don't resemble the reason I got into DT in the first place. Does't mean they are bad, just could explain the confusion as to why some people, myself included, don't enjoy those types of songs by DT.
However, the Mangini era has been much more "classic DT" than the albums from TOT to BC&SL. ADTOE was a huge return to form for them.
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I think it's quite a nice song! It's not the best on the album but it is very unique and sounds cool at high volumes! :hat
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Thanks to this thread, I got on a bit of a Red kick last week, and have had a couple of their songs stuck in my head the last couple of days. :lol
Anyway, this thread was a nice reminder (as if I needed one) that some of the band's more recent "short," concise songs like BMU/BMD and Forsaken, are just REALLY top notch, well-written, fun songs.
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I think Forsaken is excellently written.
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I think Forsaken is excellently written.
If I were to do an ultimate DT prog metal mix tape (hmmm...not a bad idea for a title for their next "greatest hits" package, if they were to do one), Forsaken would likely be on it.
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Forsaken is awesome. Concise, catchy chorus, the melody changes differently in the verses... in an ideal world it would have been a smash crossover hit with people enjoying this on the radio.
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Forsaken :metal
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Herrick likes Forsaken as well.
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Forsaken is awesome. Concise, catchy chorus, the melody changes differently in the verses... in an ideal world it would have been a smash crossover hit with people enjoying this on the radio.
Most definitely!
"Our New World" would be another good one, plus a few more from TA.
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I always thought “These Walls” could have been a minor metal radio hit. It’s just a tiny bit too long for that format unfortunately.
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I love Forsaken. And it's one of the best videos they've done as well, imho.
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Forsaken is one of their biggest disappointments to me ever. Cool piano lead, nice vibe, and a great JP solo, and all for naught thanks to a bland chorus that somehow misses the mark.
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Many of the singles they've released in the past 15 years are among my favorite DT songs, especially Forsaken and A Rite of Passage. I assume it has a lot to do with my background as a more traditional metal listener, not so much a prog fan. I can see why those songs are disliked by the other half of the fan base though.
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Many of the singles they've released in the past 15 years are among my favorite DT songs, especially Forsaken and A Rite of Passage. I assume it has a lot to do with my background as a more traditional metal listener, not so much a prog fan. I can see why those songs are disliked by the other half of the fan base though.
Love Forsaken, but I'm not a fan of A Rite of Passage. To me, Forsaken is a greatly crafted song, AROP isn't.
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Many of the singles they've released in the past 15 years are among my favorite DT songs, especially Forsaken and A Rite of Passage. I assume it has a lot to do with my background as a more traditional metal listener, not so much a prog fan. I can see why those songs are disliked by the other half of the fan base though.
I'm with you. I was also originally a more traditional metal fan before I discovered DT. I really like most of the singles they've released over the past few decades. And, since discovering DT, they have become my favorite band.
Here's a list of singles that I like since Systematic Chaos:
Forsaken
TDEN
ARoP
Wither
OtBoA
BMUBMD
TEI
AFtR
TGoM
MoB
ONW
UA
FitL
These are the ones I think are just OK:
CM
TLG
Paralized
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Forsaken is OK, I guess. Hard to point out specific things wrong with the song itself.
It just doesn't hold my interest. It doesn't sound specifically DT to me. *shrugs*
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Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.
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Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.
Agreed. Choruses are hard. It’s the fatal “You Not Me” Paradox
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I like YNM too, but not as much as Forsaken.
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I think that both You Not Me, and especially Forsaken have great choruses. BMUBMD has a really good one too.
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Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.
Agreed. Choruses are hard. It’s the fatal “You Not Me” Paradox
I moved past this when it was first posted a couple weeks ago, but now I'm too curious. What the heck is the "'You Not Me' Paradox"?
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Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.
Agreed. Choruses are hard. It’s the fatal “You Not Me” Paradox
I moved past this when it was first posted a couple weeks ago, but now I'm too curious. What the heck is the "'You Not Me' Paradox"?
You Not Me...cool song up until the Desmond Child chorus. The worst chorus in DT’s history, and maybe one of the worst choruses in rock and roll history. A chorus that would have completely derailed a lessor band’s career. (I’m being dramatic but you get the point).
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Of course everyone's tastes and personal perceptions are valid, but.... really? what's wrong with the anthemic and bombastic chorus of FORSAKEEEEEEEN I HAVE COME FOR YOU TONIIIIIGHT? it's awesome!
And You Not Me's chorus is catchier and easier to remember than You Or Me's.
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It really just boils down to preference. It's not something that everyone is going to agree on...and as well we shouldn't. For me I think it's the cheesy keyboard stuff going on in the chorus that ruins it for me in Forsaken. It just sounds so lame and flaccid on a chorus that's already somewhat bland (or mediocre). There are times when I dig the hell out of that same fake string sound. The Underground Railroad's "Through And Through" has a moment near the end of that tune (16+ minute-ish?) which is a perfect example. Kurt Rongey's use of that patch rules there. Love it! However, I absolutely loathe that same sounding patch in the Forsaken chorus for some reason. It's odd that. Horses for courses I suppose.
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Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.
Agreed. Choruses are hard. It’s the fatal “You Not Me” Paradox
I moved past this when it was first posted a couple weeks ago, but now I'm too curious. What the heck is the "'You Not Me' Paradox"?
You Not Me...cool song up until the Desmond Child chorus. The worst chorus in DT’s history, and maybe one of the worst choruses in rock and roll history. A chorus that would have completely derailed a lessor band’s career. (I’m being dramatic but you get the point).
Ok. You like the song, except for the chorus.
What's the paradox?
And You Not Me's chorus is catchier and easier to remember than You Or Me's.
You Not Me is significantly better than You or Me.
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Forsaken is awesome. Concise, catchy chorus, the melody changes differently in the verses... in an ideal world it would have been a smash crossover hit with people enjoying this on the radio.
Most definitely!
"Our New World" would be another good one, plus a few more from TA.
Another short and concise song off of TA is My Last Farewell. This song defines what DT is all about in just 3:44.
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Regarding Forsaken. I pretty much feel see same as KevShmev. The chorus lets it down. Everything else about the tune is nice.
Agreed. Choruses are hard. It’s the fatal “You Not Me” Paradox
I moved past this when it was first posted a couple weeks ago, but now I'm too curious. What the heck is the "'You Not Me' Paradox"?
You Not Me...cool song up until the Desmond Child chorus. The worst chorus in DT’s history, and maybe one of the worst choruses in rock and roll history. A chorus that would have completely derailed a lessor band’s career. (I’m being dramatic but you get the point).
Ok. You like the song, except for the chorus.
What's the paradox?
And You Not Me's chorus is catchier and easier to remember than You Or Me's.
You Not Me is significantly better than You or Me.
Paradoxical in that it's a good song, terrible chorus. Okay so maybe its not a TRUE paradox...
The POINT is there have been times when DT struggled with choruses in otherwise good songs, You Not Me being a GREAT example of that.
Also, You or Me is miles better than You Not Me. The You Not Me chorus belongs on a 90s Motley Crue or Ratt album (go figure, it's Desmond Child). Its easily the worst thing DT have ever put on tape. Easily.
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A band making some artistic choices that you disagree with does not mean they "struggled" in that area. :lol
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You Not Me is NOT drastically better than You Or Me.
Both are pretty bad, and any difference either way is marginal at best.
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A band making some artistic choices that you disagree with does not mean they "struggled" in that area. :lol
To be fair, the band ultimately agreed to retool You or Me into You Not Me under label pressure. True, in the end the band did ultimately agree to it, so it could be argued that it was "their choice". But since outsider influence and label pressure was involved, I'm not sure you could say that it was the band's personal original intent in the "artistic choice" department.
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That is all true, but isn't really relevant to the point I was making.
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Just my 2 cents, but I also like You or Me more than You not Me. I really like the Collective Soulesque middle part in You or Me. I don't hate You not Me, I just like the other version better.
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A band making some artistic choices that you disagree with does not mean they "struggled" in that area. :lol
Fair enough, but in THIS case, you don’t bring in Desmond Child because the writing is going great.
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I'm sure the writing would've been fine without DC.
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I'm sure the writing would've been fine without DC.
"You Or Me" is the writing without DC.
Not great. But the problem with it isn't "a lack of Desmond Child".
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That's always been one of the great mysteries of DT's career. Desmond Child writes pretty fucking catchy choruses. But "You Not Me" is just... no.
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I'm sure the writing would've been fine without DC.
"You Or Me" is the writing without DC.
Not great. But the problem with it isn't "a lack of Desmond Child".
I don't remember saying anything about a problem.
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I'm sure the writing would've been fine without DC.
"You Or Me" is the writing without DC.
Not great. But the problem with it isn't "a lack of Desmond Child".
I don't remember saying anything about a problem.
True, which I guess means that you must like the song, for some reason.
Of course, you also said "I'm sure the writing would've been fine without DC" as if we don't actually know what it would have been without him. Which we do.
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Oh no, that’s not it at all. I don’t dislike YOM and YNM is better by some degree, but we all know that both aren’t that great. I never meant to imply otherwise. Maybe I should’ve used the word “could’ve”. If Kevin Shirley wanted the song re-written, he could’ve asked the band to do it. I think they were perfectly capable of refining the original composition without the help of DC. It could’ve been a better song. The outcome of that particular scenario is something we’ll never know. But, as it turned out, I like YNM better and I have no problem with it.
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Oh no, that’s not it at all. I don’t dislike YOM and YNM is better by some degree, but we all know that both aren’t that great. I never meant to imply otherwise. Maybe I should’ve used the word “could’ve”. If Kevin Shirley wanted the song re-written, he could’ve asked the band to do it. I think they were perfectly capable of refining the original composition without the help of DC. It could’ve been a better song. The outcome of that particular scenario is something we’ll never know. But, as it turned out, I like YNM better and I have no problem with it.
I consider YNM to be a great song. It's got a catchy chorus, a simple but effective main riff, tons of groove in the verses, a unique bridge, and it's over in under 5 minutes. What more does it need? I don't know how people dislike this song but love garbage like Constant Motion or A Rite Of Passage. A vast improvement over YOM also.
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I don't know how people dislike this song but love garbage like Constant Motion or A Rite Of Passage. A vast improvement over YOM also.
Those songs are fantastic.
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Oh no, that’s not it at all. I don’t dislike YOM and YNM is better by some degree, but we all know that both aren’t that great. I never meant to imply otherwise. Maybe I should’ve used the word “could’ve”. If Kevin Shirley wanted the song re-written, he could’ve asked the band to do it. I think they were perfectly capable of refining the original composition without the help of DC. It could’ve been a better song. The outcome of that particular scenario is something we’ll never know. But, as it turned out, I like YNM better and I have no problem with it.
I consider YNM to be a great song. It's got a catchy chorus, a simple but effective main riff, tons of groove in the verses, a unique bridge, and it's over in under 5 minutes. What more does it need? I don't know how people dislike this song but love garbage like Constant Motion or A Rite Of Passage. A vast improvement over YOM also.
This is the great thing about Dream Theater. One fan’s trash is another fan’s treasure.
Seems like people are pretty split on You Not Me or You Or Me.
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Oh no, that’s not it at all. I don’t dislike YOM and YNM is better by some degree, but we all know that both aren’t that great. I never meant to imply otherwise. Maybe I should’ve used the word “could’ve”. If Kevin Shirley wanted the song re-written, he could’ve asked the band to do it. I think they were perfectly capable of refining the original composition without the help of DC. It could’ve been a better song. The outcome of that particular scenario is something we’ll never know. But, as it turned out, I like YNM better and I have no problem with it.
I consider YNM to be a great song. It's got a catchy chorus, a simple but effective main riff, tons of groove in the verses, a unique bridge, and it's over in under 5 minutes. What more does it need? I don't know how people dislike this song but love garbage like Constant Motion or A Rite Of Passage. A vast improvement over YOM also.
This is the great thing about Dream Theater. One fan’s trash is another fan’s treasure.
Seems like people are pretty split on You Not Me or You Or Me.
Truth. Instead of trying to convince people that their opinions should be different, or that my opinion is the "correct" one, I find it more interesting simply to just to find out what people think and maybe learn something in the process.
As far as You Not Me goes I can't really motivate myself to care one way or another. I don't think it's a "bad" song, but it doesn't do anything for me either...so I never listen to it. But then I find most of FII is that way. I can't think of a single tune on that record that I really want to listen to. You'd probably be surprised to know that I actually think "Anna Lee" is one of the stronger songs. It's a very interesting arrangement with lots of lovely chord changes and accompanying melody lines. It's almost like DT doing a Spock's Beard homage in spots. That "bridge" sounds like it's straight from the Neal Morse playbook. It's a nice, sweet little tune that has grown on me over the years. I can't really say that about anything else from that album.
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I think YNM is an awful song, forsaken is ok, ROP is not very good but at least it’s weird, and constant motion is textbook “boring modern DT”.
Of course those are all just my opinions.
If you’re looking for progressive metal none of those songs are going to help you find it.
YNM sounds like it could be on one of Alice Cooper’s terrible 90’s albums, and He’s a top 10 artist for me.
The fact that Trial of Tears and YNM are on the same album is pretty funny.
Anyways, just my two cents. I already stated my opinion BMUBMD which is not a good one.
Don’t mistake this as Dream Theater bashing as I have two #1 favorite bands and they are Dream Theater and The Kinks. Yes I know thats a strange top 2.
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I like the first three songs on that album, the rest fall flat with me.
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I think YNM is an awful song, forsaken is ok, ROP is not very good but at least it’s weird, and constant motion is textbook “boring modern DT”.
Of course those are all just my opinions.
If you’re looking for progressive metal none of those songs are going to help you find it.
YNM sounds like it could be on one of Alice Cooper’s terrible 90’s albums
Agree with everything here. It sounds like a lot of the bad 90s Metal that came from hair bands desperate to remain relevant (the chorus at least).
There are only a handful of DT songs I’d put in the awful category. YNM is one. Along for the Ride is another but I know it has its fans as well. Build Me Up Break Me Down is not good, but I wouldn’t go as far to say it’s awful either.
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You'd probably be surprised to know that I actually think "Anna Lee" is one of the stronger songs.
Totally. Always loved it. The key changes, arrangements, James - very touching.
BMUBMD has a very catchy chorus. I don't like the screams and synth hits. But i really like the main chorus. The lyrics fit well too.
ROP is DT at their most bar-band pointless to me. "Hey, let's do a song with that Eastern scale everyone does from time to time". Not what i want from DT at all. But I can't stand the SC and BCASL period as a whole so...
And, you know what, i really like You Not Me. Very well written. Another go-to track from FII for me.
I think DT mainly work for me as a heavy rock band with prog and all the other bits added on. The affecting song-writing is what i love. I love the playful bits of heavier metal too (i count things like TGP, R137, PBD as that). Whenever they veer towards "tough" metal styles with a straight face it sounds unnatural to me and turns me off. (Eg TOT, SC, BCASL)
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My problem was that the Kesha song Tik Tok was popular at that time, with a bridge that goes
'You build me up, you break me down
My heart, it pounds, yeah, you got me'
So it seemed to me that DT was turning to the top 40 charts for inspiration
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Love Anna Lee, one of their best ballads. It’s like Dream Theater does Elton John.
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Love Anna Lee, one of their best ballads. It’s like Dream Theater does Elton John.
When DS was there, it was almost like Elton John was a member. :angel: ;D
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I don't know how people dislike this song but love garbage like Constant Motion or A Rite Of Passage. A vast improvement over YOM also.
IMO they are all pretty bad.
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I don't know how people dislike this song but love garbage like Constant Motion or A Rite Of Passage. A vast improvement over YOM also.
IMO they are all pretty bad.
That’s ok Hef. We forgive you, cause you’re such a cool guy. :biggrin: :2metal:
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Thank you so much.