Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album

[gzarruk]

Raise The Knife was the only loss, the Score version shows how great the song could have sounded, if they had recorded a studio version.

Raise the Knife and Speak to Me, the rest are just meh (like most of FII, anyway).

[pg1067]

ToT sounds like a hodgepodge of jams that don't make coherent songs.

You're kidding, right?

[Super Dude]

ToT sounds like a hodgepodge of jams that don't make coherent songs.

You're kidding, right?

I'm serious, and don't call me Kidding.

Raise The Knife was the only loss, the Score version shows how great the song could have sounded, if they had recorded a studio version.

Raise the Knife and Speak to Me, the rest are just meh (like most of FII, anyway).

Raise the Knife could've been good, yeah. I'm not a fan of Speak to Me, but I feel like a reworked Cover My Eyes might've had promise. Another grungy single.

Take Away My Pain was just terrible until it basically underwent a total rewrite

John Petrucci's draft of Take Away My Pain is not good. It certainly didn't make me feel anything, which I assumed was his intent.

[KevShmev]

The electric version of Cover My Eyes is pretty generic. It was like 74 times better played acoustically.

[Cool Chris]

More like 74 million. Wasn't Cover My Eyes one of the songs JP wrote when the record label asked for more material? It totally sounds like someone who was of the mindset of "Well, I just wrote a bunch of material, I don't have any new ideas right now.... here's a song." 

[Pettor]

Almost forgot that Raise The Knife was scrapped for FII. Has anyone said why? Not sure how well The Score version represents the version they wrote for FII but if it's the same I can't understand why songs like You Not Me, Take Away My Pain, Burning My Soul, Anna Lee etc. was preferred. It has a catchy sound and I think fans would have loved it! I think it has "harmonies" as well 

[Evai]

Yeah, Cover My Eyes does sound like a song that was written in 20 minutes. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just that the 'quickie' nature of it doesn't really fit anywhere in DT's discography 

[DTA]

I guess I'm in the minority when I say that I think RtK is one of their worst 10+ minute songs. Musically it is ok, but the vocal melodies are beyond awful and really ruin the song for me. It's literally my least favorite song from the entire FII sessions and doesn't hold a candle to LiTS or ToT.

[Samsara]

To my ears, Raise the Knife had potential, but it is clearly a demo. It needed a lot more work.

Cover My Eyes is a crossover song. Simplistic, meant for radio, it would and could have worked. Speak to Me is a great track, and honestly should have been on the record.

[rumborak]

One thing that I feel is never mentioned about FII is, they added a lot of tiny things in the background. E.g. 2:13 in New Millennium, Derek is scraping over piano wires.

[Super Dude]

To my ears, Raise the Knife had potential, but it is clearly a demo. It needed a lot more work.

Cover My Eyes is a crossover song. Simplistic, meant for radio, it would and could have worked. Speak to Me is a great track, and honestly should have been on the record.

All of this except for the part about Speak to Me. I don't hate it I guess, it just doesn't add anything.

[pg1067]

All this stuff about how the track list for FII should have been different makes me wonder even more how FII could have been a "truly great DT album."  Of course, that term still hasn't been clearly defined.  Nor has it been explained why none of the nine subsequent albums qualify as "truly great" (other than the comments that those nine albums contain "wankery" that wasn't present (to the same degree) on FII, but which has been part of DT's sound since the very beginning).

[Cool Chris]

Cover My Eyes is a crossover song. Simplistic, meant for radio, it would and could have worked.

Then don't you have that thing happen where someone buys the album based on that one song on they heard on the radio, then they get pissed off when the rest of the album sounds nothing like that one song? Bands don't always complain about more people buying their albums and going to their concerts, though some do. It's just questionable whether or not that is a good long term strategy.

[Samsara]

Cover My Eyes is a crossover song. Simplistic, meant for radio, it would and could have worked.

Then don't you have that thing happen where someone buys the album based on that one song on they heard on the radio, then they get pissed off when the rest of the album sounds nothing like that one song? Bands don't always complain about more people buying their albums and going to their concerts, though some do. It's just questionable whether or not that is a good long term strategy.

If the song gets you in front of a lot more people, that's a good thing. Hugely successful bands have had that issue, and done just fine. Metallica immediately comes to mind with Nothing Else Matters, Kansas with Dust in the Wind, Queensryche with Silent Lucidity, even DT with Solitary Shell (which they stupidly refused to play on live TV which to this day I think was a really bad mistake).

Sure, there are some risks you take, but hey, back in 1997, if impulse buying off of one song pushed your record from 250,000 to gold, or from 600,000 to platinum, you take that every single time, and deal with the consequences later.

[Ben_Jamin]

Take Away My Pain was just terrible until it basically underwent a total rewrite

Yeah and even at that it still wasn't fully awesome until they played it live. Thats when the song became an amazing emotional song about JP's dad.

[Super Dude]

All this stuff about how the track list for FII should have been different makes me wonder even more how FII could have been a "truly great DT album."  Of course, that term still hasn't been clearly defined.  Nor has it been explained why none of the nine subsequent albums qualify as "truly great" (other than the comments that those nine albums contain "wankery" that wasn't present (to the same degree) on FII, but which has been part of DT's sound since the very beginning).

Truly great doesn't have to mean the most perfect thing to ever exist. FII as released is a great, solid album that could've been made better if some of the b-sided had been fine-tuned for final release. But it's still a great album in its own right.

[Ben_Jamin]

To my ears, Raise the Knife had potential, but it is clearly a demo. It needed a lot more work.

Cover My Eyes is a crossover song. Simplistic, meant for radio, it would and could have worked. Speak to Me is a great track, and honestly should have been on the record.

Now I'm starting to wonder how different the Demos would be if those songs got worked on to be on the album. One song that would've been way different is Where Are You Now? I love that demo as is but I'm sure that Keys/Guitar solo melody would appear only one time.

[pg1067]

Truly great doesn't have to mean the most perfect thing to ever exist. FII as released is a great, solid album that could've been made better if some of the b-sided had been fine-tuned for final release. But it's still a great album in its own right.

Ok, but I still don't understand the original premise of this thread.  What does "truly great" mean (other than that it means something less than perfect), and why does FII meet that definition but none of the subsequent albums do.

If you're just saying that you subjectively prefer FII to anything DT has done since, then I'll leave it at that, except to say that I obviously have a different subjective opinion.

[bosk1]

...and why does FII meet that definition but none of the subsequent albums do.

I prefer to just recognize this is just another instance of how people like to post the most benign subjective opinions online, but presented in the most edgy controversial ways possible because it somehow feels good to post opinions in a way that appears to belittle the opinions of anyone who doesn't agree.

If you're just saying that you subjectively prefer FII to anything DT has done since, then I'll leave it at that, except to say that I obviously have a different subjective opinion.

Pretty much.

[Super Dude]

...and why does FII meet that definition but none of the subsequent albums do.

I prefer to just recognize this is just another instance of how people like to post the most benign subjective opinions online, but presented in the most edgy controversial ways possible because it somehow feels good to post opinions in a way that appears to belittle the opinions of anyone who doesn't agree.

If you're just saying that you subjectively prefer FII to anything DT has done since, then I'll leave it at that, except to say that I obviously have a different subjective opinion.

Pretty much.

Oh you.

Heck, I'm just glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

[cramx3]

To each their own with their opinions on FII but to me, TA blows it out of the water so I personally disagree with the OP

[pg1067]

...and why does FII meet that definition but none of the subsequent albums do.

I prefer to just recognize this is just another instance of how people like to post the most benign subjective opinions online, but presented in the most edgy controversial ways possible because it somehow feels good to post opinions in a way that appears to belittle the opinions of anyone who doesn't agree.

If you're just saying that you subjectively prefer FII to anything DT has done since, then I'll leave it at that, except to say that I obviously have a different subjective opinion.

Pretty much.

So...basically, this thread should have been titled, "I love FII and don't like DT's subsequent releases (or don't like them as much as FII)."   

[El Barto]

First off, most of the threads in the DT side are merely excuses to splooge DT related Smiles all over people's monitors. Let's not pretend that SJ's thread is unique here.

More importantly, we've discussed several different distinctions as to why FII is quite different from what came after. Obviously the switch from DS to JR was a fundamental change in DT's sound. There are several others that are similarly important. I think these are pretty interesting things to discuss; hence my uncommon participation in a DT thread.

[mikeyd23]

First off, most of the threads in the DT side are merely excuses to splooge DT related Smiles all over people's monitors. Let's not pretend that SJ's thread is unique here.

More importantly, we've discussed several different distinctions as to why FII is quite different from what came after. Obviously the switch from DS to JR was a fundamental change in DT's sound. There are several others that are similarly important. I think these are pretty interesting things to discuss; hence my uncommon participation in a DT thread.

And it's extremely welcome participation, that's for sure.

FII is very different. Like you said, the switch from DS to JR was the obvious shift, but one can't help but notice just how much JP's guitar work also shifted from FII onward. FII is not my favorite DT record by a long shot, but it does contain jazzy, bluesy, fusion elements in JP's guitar playing that he has touched on since, but not nearly to the degree that he did on this record.

Kinda begs the question as to whether the change in keys player affected JP's stylistic shift (albeit slight) or if he was heading that way no matter what and JR simply reinforced it.

[Samsara]

FII is very different. Like you said, the switch from DS to JR was the obvious shift, but one can't help but notice just how much JP's guitar work also shifted from FII onward. FII is not my favorite DT record by a long shot, but it does contain jazzy, bluesy, fusion elements in JP's guitar playing that he has touched on since, but not nearly to the degree that he did on this record.

Kinda begs the question as to whether the change in keys player affected JP's stylistic shift (albeit slight) or if he was heading that way no matter what and JR simply reinforced it.

The guitar work observation is spot-on, and is one of the reasons I love FII. I think JP played with a lot more touch and feel back then. It was obvious to me that he was expanding his boundaries a bit, and looking for a way to marry his style with what both the record company wanted for crossover appeal, Derek's more blues-based playing, and his own diverse musical interests.

As we all know, after the FII era, a lot of that jazzy, bluesy, fusion stuff went away for a more standard progressive metal sound. In combination with JR's style, DT just evolved a different way.

For me personally, I was really disappointed, and don't like DT nearly as much as I did in the FII days. But still a great band.

[Super Dude]

FII is very different. Like you said, the switch from DS to JR was the obvious shift, but one can't help but notice just how much JP's guitar work also shifted from FII onward. FII is not my favorite DT record by a long shot, but it does contain jazzy, bluesy, fusion elements in JP's guitar playing that he has touched on since, but not nearly to the degree that he did on this record.

Kinda begs the question as to whether the change in keys player affected JP's stylistic shift (albeit slight) or if he was heading that way no matter what and JR simply reinforced it.

The guitar work observation is spot-on, and is one of the reasons I love FII. I think JP played with a lot more touch and feel back then. It was obvious to me that he was expanding his boundaries a bit, and looking for a way to marry his style with what both the record company wanted for crossover appeal, Derek's more blues-based playing, and his own diverse musical interests.

As we all know, after the FII era, a lot of that jazzy, bluesy, fusion stuff went away for a more standard progressive metal sound. In combination with JR's style, DT just evolved a different way.

For me personally, I was really disappointed, and don't like DT nearly as much as I did in the FII days. But still a great band.

Yes, you've seized on it! What makes FII the last truly great DT album is that experimentation with different styles and crossover of styles. On Awake too, they really tried to capture the grunge sound and sort of make it their own. The Beatles did this too, first with rockability and rock 'n' roll, then with folk rock, then psychedelia, and finally Zeppelin-esque blues rock. Since then, that sort of diversity has basically flatlined in favor of generic prog metal.

See I did have a point...I just couldn't properly articulate it.

[gzarruk]

FII is very different. Like you said, the switch from DS to JR was the obvious shift, but one can't help but notice just how much JP's guitar work also shifted from FII onward. FII is not my favorite DT record by a long shot, but it does contain jazzy, bluesy, fusion elements in JP's guitar playing that he has touched on since, but not nearly to the degree that he did on this record.

Kinda begs the question as to whether the change in keys player affected JP's stylistic shift (albeit slight) or if he was heading that way no matter what and JR simply reinforced it.

The guitar work observation is spot-on, and is one of the reasons I love FII. I think JP played with a lot more touch and feel back then. It was obvious to me that he was expanding his boundaries a bit, and looking for a way to marry his style with what both the record company wanted for crossover appeal, Derek's more blues-based playing, and his own diverse musical interests.

As we all know, after the FII era, a lot of that jazzy, bluesy, fusion stuff went away for a more standard progressive metal sound. In combination with JR's style, DT just evolved a different way.

For me personally, I was really disappointed, and don't like DT nearly as much as I did in the FII days. But still a great band.

Yes, you've seized on it! What makes FII the last truly great DT album is that experimentation with different styles and crossover of styles. On Awake too, they really tried to capture the grunge sound and sort of make it their own. The Beatles did this too, first with rockability and rock 'n' roll, then with folk rock, then psychedelia, and finally Zeppelin-esque blues rock. Since then, that sort of diversity has basically flatlined in favor of generic prog metal.

See I did have a point...I just couldn't properly articulate it.

But isn't that the genere/sound they created? We call it generic now because A LOT of bands have copied it, but that doesn't mean it's not original coming from them, it's the signature DT sound.

Also, all the jazzy/bluesy elements weren't present on the first three albums, so it's not like after FII they suddenly decided to completely shift the sound they had built before. FII was the big change in their sound, and not the other way around. SFAM has much more in common with IAW, stylistically, than with FII, and SDOIT was just the natural progression from Scenes.

I do agree on the thought that they got stuck in a similar mindset/sound from TOT to Black Clouds, but an album like TA, for example, is anything but "generic prog metal".

[Lethean]

I like Falling into Infinity, a lot.  I just like it less than a good portion of their other albums, some of which came before and some which came after.  I wouldn't call any of their albums generic though. There are those who don't like any of the albums from Train of Thought to Black Clouds, but I think more who like album X but not album Y, etc.  Those 4 albums are quite different from each other.

As to JP's guitar playing - I love his playing on old and new DT.  I lot of my favorite stuff has happened since FII.  If it's not bluesy enough for some that's cool.  But I think "feel" is a huge part of his playing and the emotion that goes into it is a large part of what sets him apart. If someone listens to him and all they get is "too fast and technical" so be it, but to my ears there's a lot more to it than that.

[Super Dude]

FII is very different. Like you said, the switch from DS to JR was the obvious shift, but one can't help but notice just how much JP's guitar work also shifted from FII onward. FII is not my favorite DT record by a long shot, but it does contain jazzy, bluesy, fusion elements in JP's guitar playing that he has touched on since, but not nearly to the degree that he did on this record.

Kinda begs the question as to whether the change in keys player affected JP's stylistic shift (albeit slight) or if he was heading that way no matter what and JR simply reinforced it.

The guitar work observation is spot-on, and is one of the reasons I love FII. I think JP played with a lot more touch and feel back then. It was obvious to me that he was expanding his boundaries a bit, and looking for a way to marry his style with what both the record company wanted for crossover appeal, Derek's more blues-based playing, and his own diverse musical interests.

As we all know, after the FII era, a lot of that jazzy, bluesy, fusion stuff went away for a more standard progressive metal sound. In combination with JR's style, DT just evolved a different way.

For me personally, I was really disappointed, and don't like DT nearly as much as I did in the FII days. But still a great band.

Yes, you've seized on it! What makes FII the last truly great DT album is that experimentation with different styles and crossover of styles. On Awake too, they really tried to capture the grunge sound and sort of make it their own. The Beatles did this too, first with rockability and rock 'n' roll, then with folk rock, then psychedelia, and finally Zeppelin-esque blues rock. Since then, that sort of diversity has basically flatlined in favor of generic prog metal.

See I did have a point...I just couldn't properly articulate it.

But isn't that the genere/sound they created? We call it generic now because A LOT of bands have copied it, but that doesn't mean it's not original coming from them, it's the signature DT sound.

Also, all the jazzy/bluesy elements weren't present on the first three albums, so it's not like after FII they suddenly decided to completely shift the sound they had built before. FII was the big change in their sound, and not the other way around. SFAM has much more in common with IAW, stylistically, than with FII, and SDOIT was just the natural progression from Scenes.

I do agree on the thought that they got stuck in a similar mindset/sound from TOT to Black Clouds, but an album like TA, for example, is anything but "generic prog metal".

If you think DT created that sound you must not have heard of Queensryche or Fatez Warning (just kidding).

And while there were no bluesy elements before, like I said, that sort of experimentation was present on Awake as well. It's somewhat disingenuous to assert that it wasn't happening in other ways just because it wasn't happening in literally the same way before.

Furthermore, what this and Awake represented for DT was them thinking outside the box, which they definitely don't do anymore. The last five or six albums have been the same thing in different packaging. Not exactly thinking outside the box.

[SjundeInseglet]

The last five or six albums have been the same thing in different packaging. Not exactly thinking outside the box.

I get it that you don't connect with DT the way you used to and that you prefer the stuff they were doing 20 years ago but this could not be further from the truth. Like it or not, "The Astonishing" isn't the same thing they've been doing in the last couple of years with different packaging. And there are sufficient stylistic differences between all the other albums that came before it to render your statement untrue.

[Setlist Scotty]

The last five or six albums have been the same thing in different packaging. Not exactly thinking outside the box.

I get it that you don't connect with DT the way you used to and that you prefer the stuff they were doing 20 years ago but this could not be further from the truth. Like it or not, "The Astonishing" isn't the same thing they've been doing in the last couple of years with different packaging. And there are sufficient stylistic differences between all the other albums that came before it to render your statement untrue.

Agreed. While I certainly do appreciate the ambition of TA, and I do like some parts of the album, I would probably rank it as my least favorite album of there's. BUT, that doesn't mean that I would say that it continues as "the same thing in different packaging" - far from it.

[Phoenix87x]

I think Scenes is pretty incredible. After that if fluctuates between good and bad, but it never quite got back to really extraordinary imo. (even though I LOVE TOT)

[Grappler]

I never owned this album until this past weekend.  I always wrote it off since so many people claimed that it was DT's worst record.  Over the years, I've enjoyed the live songs on Once in Livetime, and Burning My Soul (obviously... ), so I figured I should check the studio album out.

To me, it's where the line is drawn between the band's more "organic" sound (I've used this to describe Queensryche's Q2K record too - it's just a feeling I get when I hear the album and it seems like there was just a general consensus to write songs and let the music flow) and the more "manufactured" or "constructed" sound of Dream Theater afterwards.  And that's not a bad thing - I love some of the DT albums that followed, but it really is evident that this album is the dividing line between the two eras.

[Scottjf8]

What does Reddit have to do with this forum? Disclaimer, I don't know anything about Reddit.

Hmm... I would say ADToE is great, there is a noticeable drop-off with DT12, and I like TA quite a bit, but can't quite put it in the "great" category.

I apologize for being snarky. You came out with a strong opinion and I came back with mine unnecessarily strong.

Oh, Reddit is kind of like a huge forum so I focused most of my social media energy there. Anyway, no worries - this is DTF, we know drama.

Definitely agree that DT12 was a huge drop-off. It's because of that album that I no longer consider myself a fan per se.

That's kinda lame.

I hated TA but still love this band.

[Samsara]

I never owned this album until this past weekend.  I always wrote it off since so many people claimed that it was DT's worst record.  Over the years, I've enjoyed the live songs on Once in Livetime, and Burning My Soul (obviously... ), so I figured I should check the studio album out.

To me, it's where the line is drawn between the band's more "organic" sound (I've used this to describe Queensryche's Q2K record too - it's just a feeling I get when I hear the album and it seems like there was just a general consensus to write songs and let the music flow) and the more "manufactured" or "constructed" sound of Dream Theater afterwards.  And that's not a bad thing - I love some of the DT albums that followed, but it really is evident that this album is the dividing line between the two eras.

Still one of my favorite Dream Theater records. Absolutely more organic. I think the fact the band had to write so many songs for it to finally get the green light to record, really brought out something great in the band.