Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album

[PetFish]

Good point. If it had been released sounding like the demo versions, I would have discarded it as inane, over-bloated garbage.

How do you go from it being the "last truly great DT album" as it was released to the complete opposite if it was released as initially planned?

[Super Dude]

Because as the songs were initially written, they were a mess. Shockingly, sometimes outside input is actually important to creating a quality work.

[MirrorMask]

Because as the songs were initially written, they were a mess. Shockingly, sometimes outside input is actually important to creating a quality work.

This. I agree with basically all the decisions made during the process.

I agree that Burning My Soul flows better as a standard rocking song without the need to derail it for a couple of minutes. Also, unintended good consequences - by creating Hell's Kitchen, they wrote the best part of the song, the ending, to make it connect to Lines in the Sand.

I agree that Hollow Years flows better with the bridge shortened and streamlined.

I agree that, if you really have to have a catchy song, You Not Me is catchier than You Or Me.

I agree that it didn't need to be a double album, especially knowing now that we would have gotten Scenes from a Memory after.

[Super Dude]

I will admit I have a slight preference for You Or Me, but You Not Me is not the great abomination to art and music everyone acts like it is.

[Cool Chris]

Indeed. It's biggest failing is that it didn't sound like DT. And for fans at the time, coming off of I&W and Awake, if you are going to diverge from the sound that has built you up in to one of the genre's flagship bands, you damn well better write something better than You Not Me.

That being said, at the time, when I listened to FII, I only ever listened to YNM-PS-HY and AL-ToT.

[Super Dude]

No love for Just Let Me Breathe or Take Away My Pain?

[Adami]

No love for Just Let Me Breathe or Take Away My Pain?

They're cool. The Once in a Livetime version of Take Away my Pain is excellent though.

[Ben_Jamin]

I will admit I have a slight preference for You Or Me, but You Not Me is not the great abomination to art and music everyone acts like it is.

Keep the awesome keyboard section of You Or Me and keep the chorus of You Not Me.

Derek has some great keyboard moments that are on the non album demos and sections they cut for the songs that made it on the album. They show more of his different keyboard sounds.

[Samsara]

Because as the songs were initially written, they were a mess. Shockingly, sometimes outside input is actually important to creating a quality work.

THANK YOU. I see all the time all this crap about artists having control over their own stuff, and while I support that to a degree, I am of the opinion DT absolutely needed (and still does) a full-on producer suggesting thing and bringing a fresh perspective. I for one think the changes made to FII are exactly what the album needed. I would love to have had a double album, as I love the other tracks written for FII, but the songs on the album as it stands were not as good as demos. The changes made to them IMPROVE things (for example, lifting Hell's Kitchen out of Burning My Soul -- that was EXACTLY what was needed, at least to my ear).

I will admit I have a slight preference for You Or Me, but You Not Me is not the great abomination to art and music everyone acts like it is.

I am a fan of You Not Me. It did very well on radio, and was a nice blend of commercial hard rock/prog. It isn't my top-3 on the record, but I really think it gets a bad rap. I actually think it is much better than You Or Me. That tune needed work, and it got it with the changes made.

No love for Just Let Me Breathe or Take Away My Pain?

They are what they are. I am not a big fan of JLMB, but I am very much looking forward to seeing it played live again with Sons of Apollo. I like the sentiment behind Take Away My Pain for sure, and respect what JP was going through. But it isn't one of my favorites from that record.

[MirrorMask]

THANK YOU. I see all the time all this crap about artists having control over their own stuff, and while I support that to a degree, I am of the opinion DT absolutely needed (and still does) a full-on producer suggesting thing and bringing a fresh perspective.

Indeed, for example, while we know MP offered three solutions to the dilemma, it was a producer job to sort out the issues with the "Day after day" infamous section of A Nightmare to Remember. I'm not sure what *I* would have came up with, but an external producer would have suggested something.

[IDontNotDoThings]

THANK YOU. I see all the time all this crap about artists having control over their own stuff, and while I support that to a degree, I am of the opinion DT absolutely needed (and still does) a full-on producer suggesting thing and bringing a fresh perspective.

Indeed, for example, while we know MP offered three solutions to the dilemma, it was a producer job to sort out the issues with the "Day after day" infamous section of A Nightmare to Remember. I'm not sure what *I* would have came up with, but an external producer would have suggested something.

I don't know why the Michael Akerfeldt(?) feature was denied. I mean, I get the argument that they couldn't do it live if they did that, but it's not like it'd destroy the song by having a sample. By that logic, Home should've never been played live unless they got the actors who did the sex sound effects to do them live.





(not that I would've complained or anything )

[soheil]

I would go with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Hell, I would even go with ADTOE if there wasn't a track called "Build me up Break Me Down" on that CD.

[Cool Chris]

Indeed, for example, while we know MP offered three solutions to the dilemma, it was a producer job to sort out the issues with the "Day after day" infamous section of A Nightmare to Remember. I'm not sure what *I* would have came up with, but an external producer would have suggested something.

Hopefully he would have suggested something along the lines of "Let's have the singer handle the vocals."

[Super Dude]

By that logic, Home should've never been played live unless they got the actors who did the sex sound effects to do them live.

It's cool, they just had James do it instead.

[gzarruk]

Indeed, for example, while we know MP offered three solutions to the dilemma, it was a producer job to sort out the issues with the "Day after day" infamous section of A Nightmare to Remember. I'm not sure what *I* would have came up with, but an external producer would have suggested something.

Hopefully he would have suggested something along the lines of "Let's have the singer handle the vocals."

So much truth in such a short post

[The Curious Orange]

I think SFAM is DT's greatest album, but it is a bit one-dimensional, so I can see why people might not agree. 6DOIT is great, but that title track is just too long, it bores me before I get to the end. 8VM is also brilliant, but there are some duff moments.

I love FII. If you like that more mellow, atmospheric side of the band (I do), they've never really done anything like it since. I can see why the OP would argue that FII is the band's last great album, but for me it has moments of weakness.

So, in conclusion, the last truly great DT album was - Awake.

[Super Dude]

I think SFAM is DT's greatest album, but it is a bit one-dimensional, so I can see why people might not agree. 6DOIT is great, but that title track is just too long, it bores me before I get to the end. 8VM is also brilliant, but there are some duff moments.

I love FII. If you like that more mellow, atmospheric side of the band (I do), they've never really done anything like it since. I can see why the OP would argue that FII is the band's last great album, but for me it has moments of weakness.

So, in conclusion, the last truly great DT album was - Awake.

Well played.

[El Barto]

FII had a musicality that the latter albums lacked. I find it generally more listenable. I always thought that once they brought JR aboard their music became colder, and focused more on chops than music. I'm not sure I agree with Super Jew, the next two albums absolutely qualify as great in my book, but he's certainly correct that it marked the end of an era. Their new direction started off very well but really set the course for a steady decline.

[Samsara]

FII had a musicality that the latter albums lacked. I find it generally more listenable. I always thought that once they brought JR aboard their music became colder, and focused more on chops than music. I'm not sure I agree with Super Jew, the next two albums absolutely qualify as great in my book, but he's certainly correct that it marked the end of an era. Their new direction started off very well but really set the course for a steady decline.

Spot-on. Very well said. I was still on board with SFAM and Six Degrees, but found my interest waning. ToT was good too, but I basically just checked out after that, despite seeing various tours. I bought all the albums, but rarely listen to anything post-FII (and Cleaning out the Closet) these days.

[DoctorAction]

6D was the last great for me. TOT's trying so hard to be heavy it sounds super-unconvincing. And they rarely shook elements of that off until MP left. 8VM was 2/3rds terrific but yeah. 6D.

[Pettor]

FII had a musicality that the latter albums lacked. I find it generally more listenable. I always thought that once they brought JR aboard their music became colder, and focused more on chops than music. I'm not sure I agree with Super Jew, the next two albums absolutely qualify as great in my book, but he's certainly correct that it marked the end of an era. Their new direction started off very well but really set the course for a steady decline.

It's strange that you use the word "colder". I realize how different people can see things because FII always represents a very "cold" album for me. The production lacks warmth as it sounds very clean and "cold" even if it's great. Except for some few great songs, most of them lack personality and any kind of heart for me. Scenes From a Memory and SDOIT are very warm and colorful when I think about them. FII really represents a clinically correct album and partly therefore sometimes joyless album for me, something that thankfully the next one was full of.

[Super Dude]

And it's funny because I hear just the opposite: FII was the last album before mindless wankery took over. It had harmonies, for God's sake, HARMONIES!

[Samsara]

And it's funny because I hear just the opposite: FII was the last album before mindless wankery took over. It had harmonies, for God's sake, HARMONIES!

YES! Fully agree with you.

[Pettor]

I actually really appreciate the topic. Saying FII is the last great album with Scenes being the sequel is unusual 

However back to subject. FII is just not a master at anything for me. Scenes IS a master even if it's not everyone's cup of tea. Not sure if the music on Scenes is "wankery" but if it is I certainly love DT with "wankery" more than DT with "harmonies" and restrictions. Even the opener Overture 1928 feels like a lion released from Zoo.

I also can't help to wonder how Trail of Tears can't be "wankery"? Half the song is pretty much instrument solo "wankery" IMO. I love that song and the absolute highlight of FII for me

[gzarruk]

I actually really appreciate the topic. Saying FII is the last great album with Scenes being the sequel is unusual 

However back to subject. FII is just not a master at anything for me. Scenes IS a master even if it's not everyone's cup of tea. Not sure if the music on Scenes is "wankery" but if it is I certainly love DT with "wankery" more than DT with "harmonies" and restrictions. Even the opener Overture 1928 feels like a lion released from Zoo.

I also can't help to wonder how Trail of Tears can't be "wankery"? Half the song is pretty much instrument solo "wankery" IMO. I love that song and the absolute highlight of FII for me

I literally agree with all of this

[RaiseTheKnife]

I know a few DT fans that would agree with this thread title.  I am one of them.

[goo-goo]

And it's funny because I hear just the opposite: FII was the last album before mindless wankery took over. It had harmonies, for God's sake, HARMONIES!

Amen to this!

[Samsara]

And it's funny because I hear just the opposite: FII was the last album before mindless wankery took over. It had harmonies, for God's sake, HARMONIES!

Amen to this!

We should start a "Falling into Infinity Fans only" thread. LOL.

[Evai]

I'm pretty confident that every DT album has harmonies. (I wasn't sure about WDADU, then decided to check using Afterlife and yep, they're there)

[TheCountOfNYC]

And it's funny because I hear just the opposite: FII was the last album before mindless wankery took over. It had harmonies, for God's sake, HARMONIES!

I don't understand the harmony comment. If you're talking vocal harmonies, Home, Forsaken, A Nightmare to Remember, and Our New World all have some of the band's best harmonies. If you're talking instruments, Beyond this Life, The Great Debate, Endless Sacrifice, Octavarium, In the Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, Breaking All Illusions, Illumination Theory, and A New Beginning all have plenty of harmonies in their instrumental sections. That's just a few songs of many and they all came out after FII.

[goo-goo]

I would say he meant more melodies (melodic) than wankery. The post MP albums have a much lower degree of wankery and have been more melodic compares to the last few MP albums.

[PetFish]

Because as the songs were initially written, they were a mess. Shockingly, sometimes outside input is actually important to creating a quality work.

I still don't understand how you go from "best thing ever" to "garbage".

If you said you prefer the final released album over a double-CD or other track choices cuz it's tighter and not bloated and such then I'd understand but to call a double-CD version "garbage" when you praise the actual version so highly doesn't make sense to me.  At the very least they're similar and could be considered "slightly" or "moderately" better than the other but to go from "heaven" to "hell" is extreme to say the least.

Personally, I think a single-CD but with different tracks would have been the way to go.  I'd leave off the "emo angst" tracks such as Just Let Me Breathe and Burning My Soul in favour of Where Are You Now and Raise The Knife and I really don't care much for New Millennium and would rather have had The Way It Used To Be and let's not forget about Speak To Me in place of Anna Lee.

The one thing I truly miss from the FII days are the demos and the crafting of the songs.

[Super Dude]

Because as the songs were initially written, they were a mess. Shockingly, sometimes outside input is actually important to creating a quality work.

I still don't understand how you go from "best thing ever" to "garbage".

If you said you prefer the final released album over a double-CD or other track choices cuz it's tighter and not bloated and such then I'd understand but to call a double-CD version "garbage" when you praise the actual version so highly doesn't make sense to me.  At the very least they're similar and could be considered "slightly" or "moderately" better than the other but to go from "heaven" to "hell" is extreme to say the least.

Personally, I think a single-CD but with different tracks would have been the way to go.  I'd leave off the "emo angst" tracks such as Just Let Me Breathe and Burning My Soul in favour of Where Are You Now and Raise The Knife and I really don't care much for New Millennium and would rather have had The Way It Used To Be and let's not forget about Speak To Me in place of Anna Lee.

The one thing I truly miss from the FII days are the demos and the crafting of the songs.

See above:

Because as the songs were initially written, they were a mess. Shockingly, sometimes outside input is actually important to creating a quality work.

This. I agree with basically all the decisions made during the process.

I agree that Burning My Soul flows better as a standard rocking song without the need to derail it for a couple of minutes. Also, unintended good consequences - by creating Hell's Kitchen, they wrote the best part of the song, the ending, to make it connect to Lines in the Sand.

I agree that Hollow Years flows better with the bridge shortened and streamlined.

I agree that, if you really have to have a catchy song, You Not Me is catchier than You Or Me.

I agree that it didn't need to be a double album, especially knowing now that we would have gotten Scenes from a Memory after.

Ditching input from the label/studio worked alright for SFAM and SDOIT, but it would have been a disaster for FII and has been a disaster for DT ever since ToT or so. The original Hollow Years pre-chorus was unnecessary, Hell's Kitchen had no business being inside BMS, Take Away My Pain was just terrible until it basically underwent a total rewrite, and the chorus of You Or Me was not as kicking as the one used in You Not Me (not to mention the cringey bridge). Also, the Metropolis Pt. II demo was not that good. I may not like SFAM all that much, but Metropolis was much better as a fleshed-out album than it would've been as a song.

And you can see evidence that it would've been a disaster for FII from the way ToT sounds like a hodgepodge of jams that don't make coherent songs. How every album since then has had the same guitar-keyboard tradeoff solos. The total lack of interesting vocals. The gradual increase of cheese. At least early DT balanced the cheese with some attempt to sound current.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Take Away My Pain was just terrible until it basically underwent a total rewrite

[Evai]

Raise The Knife was the only loss, the Score version shows how great the song could have sounded, if they had recorded a studio version.