Such differing opinions on Awake....

[robwebster]

Personally, I love James' growling high vocals.  On the Live in Tokyo and the New York '93 discs, it's SO SWEET when he launches into his high register.  Love it.

I have never liked the music in Scarred and the radical transitions it has makes me hate it!

Also, I never understand these comments about Scarred.  Do you all even LISTEN to Dream Theater?  They're all about rough, radical transitions that VERY OFTEN never work well.  They've done this throughout their entire career, BC&SL included (RoP).  Why the hell does it bother everyone so much in Scarred?  Do you dislike Metropolis for the same reasons??  I'm just so sick of hearing this excuse...

Part of it is that the feel of the music in Scarred doesn't lend itself to the type of radical changes. Other things are that there's so many of them, and it's between lyrical sections of the song as opposed to instrumental passages.

That's only a bit of it, though - a lot of it is just to do with personal response to the music, and so its far trickier to quantify. They just "don't work" to my ears, which is pretty rare for a Dream Theater song. It sounds like the verses that are jammed together should be from two separate songs to an extent, which again is a personal response but there's a lot of ways that it doesn't hang together for me, almost uniquely for DT actually now I think of it. There are very, very few that I don't like, and this is one of that handful. Transitions probably have as much to do with that as anything else.

[KevShmev]

Jarring transitions have pretty much been a staple of the band from Day One, and it seems to me that how much you like the song determines whether or not you like the transitions in that particular song.  If you like the song as a whole, you don't mind the rough transitions; if you do not like the song as a whole, you point to the rough transitions as being one of the things that makes the song not very good.  I have seen it many times over the years and it is pretty much the way it almost always goes.

[BlobVanDam]

Scarred is one of the only songs by Dream Theater where the transitions make absolutely no sense to me - I don't understand how it's apparently more "mature" (or how writing a really good nineteen-minute long prog metal song is immature, for that matter - it's a really lazy criticism which is thrown around far too much).

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't really have a problem with the transitions in Scarred. I can't ever recall listening to it and thinking "wow that was a weird transition". If you can find one in Scarred as terrible as the Beautiful Agony -> blues type solo section in Nightmare be my guest.

I consider Scarred mature in how tastefully composed the sections and solos are. The techniques used meld together very nicely and aren't overpowering at all. It's also a great showcase on how creative JP used to be. Aside from maybe Lines In The Sand I haven't heard much of any of that in the newer stuff. To answer about The Count, it's immature mainly in lyrics but aside from the fantastic intro and last 5 or so minutes the music is not that great of quality.

2:10, 3:16, 4:35, 7:02. 9:32. You're welcome. (I didn't repeat sections where it had the same transition, or lack thereof). Some of those are out of nowhere like a bullet from the night. The one is ANTR isn't that bad at all. In fact, it flows nicely, unlike the randomness of Scarred.

LSOAD is a pretty standard ballady type song.

Listen again.  It's the least "standard" "ballad" I've ever heard.

Upon listening to the song again, you're right. Unlike Scarred and SDV I realized I haven't given this song a recent chance at all. It's actually not bad. I think it's just the initial U2 vibe that puts me off. But once you get past that, it's much better. I'll upgrade that song from unlistenable to ok.

[orcus116]

The one is ANTR isn't that bad at all. In fact, it flows nicely, unlike the randomness of Scarred.

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

[BlobVanDam]

The one is ANTR isn't that bad at all. In fact, it flows nicely, unlike the randomness of Scarred.

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

No. I'm not. There are some abrupt transitions in TCOT, TSF and AROP, but I think ANTR flows very well.

[Perpetual Change]

With a little help from food poisoning.

He was having bad nights before the incident, and plenty of bootlegs from the later legs of the I&W tours and before the incident show him as much less of a monster than we assume from the overdubbed Live at the Marquee. Sometimes, I genuinely wonder if the food poisoning had as much to do with James' inconsistent singing from 95-02 as simply not taking care of himself and screaming through songs like "Surrounded" did.

The one is ANTR isn't that bad at all. In fact, it flows nicely, unlike the randomness of Scarred.

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

No. I'm not. There are some abrupt transitions in TCOT, TSF and AROP, but I think ANTR flows very well.

Agreed. It's one of the least cut & paste sounding epics DT have done ever. It all flows very nicely, except for when it comes out of Beautiful Agony.

[orcus116]

Which is the part I'm talking about.

[robwebster]

The one is ANTR isn't that bad at all. In fact, it flows nicely, unlike the randomness of Scarred.

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

Not particlarly polite, but it's pretty smooth I'd say! No drastic change in tempo or time signature (I don't think! I'd need to listen again to be certain), and it mirrors the opening of that section pretty well. I quite like it.

I consider Scarred mature in how tastefully composed the sections and solos are. The techniques used meld together very nicely and aren't overpowering at all. It's also a great showcase on how creative JP used to be. Aside from maybe Lines In The Sand I haven't heard much of any of that in the newer stuff. To answer about The Count, it's immature mainly in lyrics but aside from the fantastic intro and last 5 or so minutes the music is not that great of quality.

I'd disagree on the melding together very nicely, which I guess is again purely personal response. I think it seems a bit mad to say that Scarred fits together well, you think it seems a bit mad to say ANTR is pretty seamless, so that's probably gotta rest at a stalemate!

I'd agree that it's not overpowering, but I don't think there's anything immature about making powerful, bombastic music. Small and subtle isn't necessarily more mature than big and soaring. I'm kinda curious to how you'd weigh in on that.

[Perpetual Change]

Which is the part I'm talking about.

Which isn't a big deal or out of the ordinary considering the transitions in any of the other songs of similar length. Hell, as much as I love "Learning to Live," it has to be one of the most cut & paste style songs DT have ever written.

[BlobVanDam]

Which is the part I'm talking about.

I think that part flows nicely. It is a short buildup of only a bar or two, but it's definitely not what I'd call abrupt. There are much better examples on BCASL of sudden transitions, and I think some of the transitions in Scarred are just as sudden as anything they have done recently. An abrupt transition usually involves a sudden change of tempo and/or key. The section of ANTR doesn't do either of those.
Now of course your point in general was about complaining about Scarred while DT do similar transitions now. I've always acknowledged when DT have done equally abrupt ones recently, such as TCOT, AROP, and there are one or two in TSF that interrupt the flow too. The difference is that people don't fellate those songs and pretend the transitions are perfectly faultless.
But from thinking of recent examples, abrupt isn't always bad, but whether it works or not is subjective. To argue that the ones in Scarred or good or bad isn't a very fruitful discussion, but all I'm trying to say is that it does have some very abrupt transitions.
Some work, some don't. I think the quick transition of TCOT works well, while the ones in AROP and some of the ones in TSF don't. And I personally don't think the ones in Scarred work well. That's just my opinion.

[ariich]

I'd say FII is a lot more mixed, and the newer ones like ToT and Octavarium. Awake usually ranks top 3 for a lot of people here, but I see a lot more variety in opinions for the other albums I've mentioned, ranking from favourite to least favourite, and everything inbetween.

Yeah I think ToT and Octavarium have far more split fan opinions than Awake.

[ariich]

Which is the part I'm talking about.

That bit is less abrupt than a number of moments in Scarred. But it's not all that relevant anyway, abrupt transitions =/= bad song by itself, plenty of great songs have sudden transitions or lots of sections.

For me, the problem with Scarred is the combination of that and too many of the sections just not being very interesting. I think Awake is a great album, but Scarred is definitely DT's most overrated song IMO.

[wasp2020]

Yeah, it's a cool album.

[PixelDream]

Awake.

Classic DT, amazing follow up to Images & Words. I don't know how they did it, but I guess with I&W and Awake DT made the blueprint for their musical style. I can hear the styles of both albums coming back, time and time again.

I don't think Awake is better than I&W, or vice versa. Let's attempt an album list for old times' sake:

1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - Dream Theater, but with a new found drift to experiment with sounds and songs.
2. Images & Words / Awake - Dream Theater, majestic and sentimental (these albums make me feel sentimental). Songwriting-wise and atmospherically speaking, these are the albums that make this band unique.
3. Scenes From a Memory - A DT classic for sure, no words can do this album justice. The perfect concept album, and definately a new kind of musical high for the band.
4. Black Clouds and Silver Linings - A perfection of the 'modern' DT sound. This record is convincing, even though we've kind of heard it before.
5. Falling Into Infinity - A more commercial record, but the grooves they got going on Lines in the Sand, New Millennium and Trial of Tears are kind of ground breaking for the band. The record has IMO the best sound production of all DT records, but maybe not the most suitable sound.
6. Octavarium - A refined focus on songwriting here. Great record but Never Enough doesn't rock hard enough. Of course, the title track is among the band's best.
7. Train of Thought - Monolithic and heavy. Maybe this deserves to be higher, because it scores serious points with its consistency and focus throughout. I'm glad this album exists, it's great to have a DT record with a full-on metal approach.
8. Systematic Chaos - I appreciate the effort, but DT didn't really grab me with this one.
9. When Dream and Day Unite - Great start of a great band, but DT without JLB isn't DT for me.

[The Awesome]

Awake is a great album. The only flaw I see is the inclusion of SDV. It feels like an afterthought when you compare it to the style of the other tracks, and the song is one of the weakest tracks in their catalog. Swapping out that song would have made it just about perfect.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Here's why Awake is a great album:

1) Obviously, because the songs are good.

2) On a more detailed level, because the songs are good in diverse ways. "6:00" and "Caught in a Web" are really groovy. "The Silent Man" and "Lifting Shadows off a Dream" are subtle and understated. "The Mirror" and "Space-Dye Vest" are borderline disturbing in the extremity of their pain. I appreciate these contrasts.

3) Leaning heavily towards ideology, because even though the songs are good in diverse ways, they are linked by a singular dark, moody atmosphere. Some have called KM's keyboard sounds circusy and silly; but, I disagree. I think his keyboards make the record.

4) The lyrics are outstanding. They're so dense you could argue they're dense for the sake of being dense (an argument I've debated countless times), but when one analyses them, he discovers nearly every line is relevant.

I interpret the lyrics as telling the stories of two characters. Maybe the stories of JP and KM themselves. And they're fascinating to read because although both begin their journey in the same place - one of despair - the JP character ends up "content" while the KM character ends worse than he started. Listening to the respective lyricists' words takes the record to a whole new level.

Overall, it's a terrific experience. And it's supremely emotional. And it's extremely relating. And I think Dream Theater should be infinitely proud of it because of how personal it is, and because of how courageous it had to be to be so personal in the first place. And even if you're of the belief it's not one of their better efforts, I think you can give them some props for that.

[Edan the Man]

Very well put, I had never thought about the album like that (two characters), very interesting way to look at it. I feel like listening to it now with that in mind.

Oh, and obligatory, OMG IS AWAKE CONCEPT ALBUM??

[petrucci07]

 Kevin Moore's sounds in the beginning of Caught in a Web are a fail

What?  That is pretty much THE definitive DT keyboard tone.  Kevin Moore used it all over the place, Derek Sherinian used it a little bit, and Jordan Rudess uses it pretty often, too.  I think the only difference is Moore played more of a lead with that tone in the beginning of "Caught in a Web," unlike most of their other songs, where that tone is usually used to play textural chords.

Even I love the intro to Caught in a Web (great fun to play on keyboard too, although tricky on the pitch bender). The basic octave strings sound would have to be one of the most commonly used DT sounds, although I can't think of any other instance where it is played with pitch bender, so I think you're right.

Chorus of Voices. (On the initial F chord)

[j]

Here's why Awake is a great album:

1) Obviously, because the songs are good.

2) On a more detailed level, because the songs are good in diverse ways. "6:00" and "Caught in a Web" are really groovy. "The Silent Man" and "Lifting Shadows off a Dream" are subtle and understated. "The Mirror" and "Space-Dye Vest" are borderline disturbing in the extremity of their pain. I appreciate these contrasts.

3) Leaning heavily towards ideology, because even though the songs are good in diverse ways, they are linked by a singular dark, moody atmosphere. Some have called KM's keyboard sounds circusy and silly; but, I disagree. I think his keyboards make the record.

4) The lyrics are outstanding. They're so dense you could argue they're dense for the sake of being dense (an argument I've debated countless times), but when one analyses them, he discovers nearly every line is relevant.

I interpret the lyrics as telling the stories of two characters. Maybe the stories of JP and KM themselves. And they're fascinating to read because although both begin their journey in the same place - one of despair - the JP character ends up "content" while the KM character ends worse than he started. Listening to the respective lyricists' words takes the record to a whole new level.

Overall, it's a terrific experience. And it's supremely emotional. And it's extremely relating. And I think Dream Theater should be infinitely proud of it because of how personal it is, and because of how courageous it had to be to be so personal in the first place. And even if you're of the belief it's not one of their better efforts, I think you can give them some props for that.

Very well-said, and I agree.  However, I have never heard anyone refer to Moore's keyboard sounds as "circusy and silly".   

-J

[ack44]

https://www.fiveeightforums.com/favorite-dream-theater-album-t86348/index.html?p=2210132#post2210132

[BlobVanDam]

You bumped an ancient thread for some useless BS from 5/8?

[ack44]

Yes.

[Dream Team]

Yes.

Congratulations, you contributed absolutely nothing to the thread, other than perhaps to stoke your massive ego. Go away.

[Dublagent66]

Yes, many opinions do vary on Awake, but that doesn't change the fact that it is one of their best albums.

[BlobVanDam]

Yes, many opinions do vary on Awake, but that doesn't change the fact that it is one of their best albums.

Obviously you don't know what opinion means if you think that's a fact.

[ack44]

Congratulations, you contributed absolutely nothing to the thread

I was demonstrating that in a site with more diverse music discussion, Awake is top rated. It's probably not really the thing for prog nerds (ratings on progarchives are pretty low) but it seems like it's being more recognized with time.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Yes, many opinions do vary on Awake, but that doesn't change the fact that it is one of their best albums.

Obviously you don't know what opinion means if you think that's a fact.

Well, I would argue that if a majority (or at least a plurality, given the number of albums they have) of fans rate it in their top 3, then that would make it one of their best albums, as far as their fans are concerned

[robwebster]

Congratulations, you contributed absolutely nothing to the thread

I was demonstrating that in a site with more diverse music discussion, Awake is top rated. It's probably not really the thing for prog nerds (ratings on progarchives are pretty low) but it seems like it's being more recognized with time.

So, when searching for a site with more diverse music discussion, you decided that the best example would be the other message board that branched off from the Official Dream Theater Website, on which most of the posters are lapsed Dream Theater fans, many of whom lapsed specifically because they were disappointed with the current material.

I don't see how that could possibly be an unrepresentative sample. Crikey bollocks.

[AcidLameLTE]

I don't see how that could possibly be an unrepresentative sample.

It's easy when you're up your own ass (I know you were being sarcastic so this isn't directed at you).

[BlobVanDam]

Congratulations, you contributed absolutely nothing to the thread

I was demonstrating that in a site with more diverse music discussion, Awake is top rated. It's probably not really the thing for prog nerds (ratings on progarchives are pretty low) but it seems like it's being more recognized with time.

5/8 is not only NOT a DT related forum, but it's a forum that exists because they didn't like DT any more, and reading any DT thread there, it's just a pissing contest to see who can blatantly bash DT the most, and you'll see there is no actual discussion there. If anything, their opinion means less than anyone's due to their ridiculous biases, and bringing it here has no relevance, let alone bumping an ancient thread to do so.

edit: beaten by robwebster, and in style

[ack44]

So, when searching for a site with more diverse music discussion, you decided that the best example would be the other message board that branched off from the Official Dream Theater Website, on which most of the posters are lapsed Dream Theater fans, many of whom lapsed specifically because they were disappointed with the current material.

Lol good point. But when we're discussing 'best album' nothing beyond Six Degrees is in the equation anyways, and Six Degrees is long before before the fans got "lapsed" so the link is still relevant.

[robwebster]

But when we're discussing 'best album' nothing beyond Six Degrees is in the equation anyways.

I'm listening.

This had better be fucking impressive.

[bosk1]

Yes.

Congratulations, you contributed absolutely nothing to the thread, other than perhaps to stoke your massive ego. Go away.

Dream Team, that was absolutely uncalled for.  Ack44 did nothing wrong.  If you are that annoyed that he bumped an old thread, then don't waste your time reading it or our time replying in it.

Congratulations, you contributed absolutely nothing to the thread

I was demonstrating that in a site with more diverse music discussion, Awake is top rated. It's probably not really the thing for prog nerds (ratings on progarchives are pretty low) but it seems like it's being more recognized with time.

5/8 is not only NOT a DT related forum, but it's a forum that exists because they didn't like DT any more, and reading any DT thread there, it's just a pissing contest to see who can blatantly bash DT the most, and you'll see there is no actual discussion there. If anything, their opinion means less than anyone's due to their ridiculous biases, and bringing it here has no relevance, let alone bumping an ancient thread to do so.

edit: beaten by robwebster, and in style

Yeah, no offense, but Rob did a much better job of making the same point.

[BlobVanDam]

Congratulations, you contributed absolutely nothing to the thread

I was demonstrating that in a site with more diverse music discussion, Awake is top rated. It's probably not really the thing for prog nerds (ratings on progarchives are pretty low) but it seems like it's being more recognized with time.

5/8 is not only NOT a DT related forum, but it's a forum that exists because they didn't like DT any more, and reading any DT thread there, it's just a pissing contest to see who can blatantly bash DT the most, and you'll see there is no actual discussion there. If anything, their opinion means less than anyone's due to their ridiculous biases, and bringing it here has no relevance, let alone bumping an ancient thread to do so.

edit: beaten by robwebster, and in style

Yeah, no offense, but Rob did a much better job of making the same point.

No offense taken. Robwebster is the master, and I already acknowledged he did it better.

[ack44]

But when we're discussing 'best album' nothing beyond Six Degrees is in the equation anyways.

I'm listening.

This had better be fucking impressive.

Do listen, and be enlightened.

I just psycho-analyzed myself and realized the only reason I posted in this thread was to   while people got riled up about an undesirable link in their forum.