2017 Jan. 30 - Rome, Italy -- SPOILERS

[Ben_Jamin]

Nice...Take The Time, still sounds weird to me down a step but James sounds way better this time.

[pcs90]

I honestly don't hear the huge improvement on TTT from James that you guys are hearing. He still sounds really flat on many notes, sometimes not even in the same key. Maybe I'm just being too critical, I'm not about to say that's an easy song to sing. Especially not at his age.

[The Letter M]

I've been reading along for the last few days, and I listened to some of the clips from the show that someone posted the full ACOS from, and I've gotta say, I'm kind of unimpressed by Mike's drumming, especially on ACOS. I had expected him to do Portnoy's parts in the Crimson Sunrise, where he had the overdubbed octobans over the hi-hats and what not, but he changed it up. Mangini just doesn't have the same flare with the early material as Portnoy did, and it feels stiff and cold to me. Yes, he's very technically proficient, and very fast, but without the sense of groove and intricate cymbal work that Portnoy put into his parts, Mangini just sounds machine-like to my drummer's ears. Maybe I'm just more used to hearing the older songs with Portnoy playing...

Either way, I've avoided listening to "Hell's Kitchen" given all of the comments posted here about it. I'd rather not have any memory of that beautiful instrumental be tainted by lackluster drumming.

-Marc.

[erwinrafael]

Holy shit this version is Take the Time is so much better than the Rome version.

Also, ACOS sounded incredible. As Adami pointed out, there is some incredible Portnoy cymbal work that wasn't done by Mangini, but hey I'll give the guy a break. He has literally played the song with the band live 4 times and he hasn't screwed up anything. That's one big feat.

And he had to learn it and TTT over the short Christmas break. And transcribe the songs while on the tour bus.

Maybe if Mangini is replaced by somebody who will not be able to do the polyrhythms in Illumination Theory, we can also call that drummer lackluster.

[jsbru]

Actually ACOS sounds great half a step lower. Sounds heavy!

Agree.  That song takes really well to being down-tuned a half step.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I honestly don't hear the huge improvement on TTT from James that you guys are hearing. He still sounds really flat on many notes, sometimes not even in the same key. Maybe I'm just being too critical, I'm not about to say that's an easy song to sing. Especially not at his age.

His performance in Rome was not very good, so there you go lol.

[Prog Snob]

I honestly don't hear the huge improvement on TTT from James that you guys are hearing. He still sounds really flat on many notes, sometimes not even in the same key. Maybe I'm just being too critical, I'm not about to say that's an easy song to sing. Especially not at his age.

His performance in Rome was not very good, so there you go lol.

It's just beyond his comfort zone. I'm not going to slight the guy though. He's in his 50s now. Not many singers can still tour as much as they do and have powerful pipes without blemish. It was inevitable. It's kind of sad in a way. I almost feel bad hearing him try to hit those notes in TTT.

[erwinrafael]

Take The Time, like Innocence Faded and Another Day, is not composed well vocally because of the successive very high notes. Even JLB at his prime would have a hard time doing that on a regular basis. Now he just compensates with a well hit belting note at the end.

On another note, while everybody's talking about the TTT outro, how about that LtL outro? Have they done that JR - JP faceoff before? Myung also seems to be genuinely enjoying jamming with Mangini.

[jsbru]

I already commented on what a short amount of time MM had to learn a 23-minute song, an 8-minute song (TTT), and HK, especially with the holidays thrown in.

Definitely not mad that he hasn't yet perfectly replicated some hi-hat patterns in such a long stretch of complex music, full of odd time and everything. 

Oh, also, with definitely no rehearsals, either, since JP and JR spent the week previous to this tour at NAMM.

[ToT-147]

I already commented on what a short amount of time MM had to learn a 23-minute song, an 8-minute song (TTT), and HK, especially with the holidays thrown in.

Definitely not mad that he hasn't yet perfectly replicated some hi-hat patterns in such a long stretch of complex music, full of odd time and everything. 

Oh, also, with definitely no rehearsals, either, since JP and JR spent the week previous to this tour at NAMM.

This..

Also, if he doesn't do all those MP's parts maybe it's because... he is not MP after all... Or is he?..

[Ben_Jamin]

I didn't see anything wrong with MM at all. Him keeping it not as flashy made the focus more towards JPs awesome solo in Hell's Kitchen.

I'm more sad that JR didn't play the awesome Tubular Bells at the end, it made the ending more majestic.

[dodido253]

I'm more sad that JR didn't play the awesome Tubular Bells at the end, it made the ending more majestic.

Exactly.
It was epic in Live at Budokan

[RoadTrain_of Thought]

I like that James sang "Seasons change and so can I" the way it is on the studio version.  I guess I don't need much to be happy : )

[CharlesPL]

ACoS full version from Padova :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVWCBtDm4i8

[KevShmev]

Holy shit this version is Take the Time is so much better than the Rome version.

Also, ACOS sounded incredible. As Adami pointed out, there is some incredible Portnoy cymbal work that wasn't done by Mangini, but hey I'll give the guy a break. He has literally played the song with the band live 4 times and he hasn't screwed up anything. That's one big feat.

And he had to learn it and TTT over the short Christmas break. And transcribe the songs while on the tour bus.

Maybe if Mangini is replaced by somebody who will not be able to do the polyrhythms in Illumination Theory, we can also call that drummer lackluster.

Who called Magnini lackluster? 

[ToT-147]

Holy shit this version is Take the Time is so much better than the Rome version.

Also, ACOS sounded incredible. As Adami pointed out, there is some incredible Portnoy cymbal work that wasn't done by Mangini, but hey I'll give the guy a break. He has literally played the song with the band live 4 times and he hasn't screwed up anything. That's one big feat.

And he had to learn it and TTT over the short Christmas break. And transcribe the songs while on the tour bus.

Maybe if Mangini is replaced by somebody who will not be able to do the polyrhythms in Illumination Theory, we can also call that drummer lackluster.

Who called Magnini lackluster?

Him?.. No one.. His drumming was called that way.. This is the comment he is referring to:

I've been reading along for the last few days, and I listened to some of the clips from the show that someone posted the full ACOS from, and I've gotta say, I'm kind of unimpressed by Mike's drumming, especially on ACOS. I had expected him to do Portnoy's parts in the Crimson Sunrise, where he had the overdubbed octobans over the hi-hats and what not, but he changed it up. Mangini just doesn't have the same flare with the early material as Portnoy did, and it feels stiff and cold to me. Yes, he's very technically proficient, and very fast, but without the sense of groove and intricate cymbal work that Portnoy put into his parts, Mangini just sounds machine-like to my drummer's ears. Maybe I'm just more used to hearing the older songs with Portnoy playing...

Either way, I've avoided listening to "Hell's Kitchen" given all of the comments posted here about it. I'd rather not have any memory of that beautiful instrumental be tainted by lackluster drumming.

-Marc.

[Adami]

His drumming, and only in specific songs/specific contexts.

But apparently no one is allowed to say anything about MM other than praise.

[ToT-147]

On another note, while everybody's talking about the TTT outro, how about that LtL outro? Have they done that JR - JP faceoff before? Myung also seems to be genuinely enjoying jamming with Mangini.

Yeah.. That's awesome!.. I think they have, but very few times afaik..

[gzarruk]

His drumming, and only in specific songs/specific contexts.

But apparently no one is allowed to say anything about MM other than praise.

I don't think that's the case and that shouldn't be anyway. Everybody's got an opinion and it's ok to express it as long as it is respectful to the guys. Having said that, I see a double standard here on DTF when it comes to this. On the other threads, some people (myself included) expressed how we think James's been struggling with the DT material for a while now, and what kind of comments we get? "we can't judge the man for only one show. he usually sings so much better. you can't judge by a youtube video...", but then, the version of HK is uploaded and, all of the sudden, it's ok to make comments about how poorly Mangini performed (in their opinion) the songs (songs which, btw, he's never performed live vs James who has been in the band for more years than MM, JR and even MP and supposedly knows the material well enough to know his limitations). What happened to the "we can't judge based on one show" comments?

The real issue here, imo, is that MM is not playing the songs like MP, and that's fine considering he's not MP. Can he improve on some of the songs? Of course, but that doesn't mean he sucks at playing the songs or anything like that.
Jordan changes most of the important parts by KM and DS and doesn't get as half criticism as MM does.

Ok, rant over, sorry for the long post 

[TAC]

From what I've seen, I thought MM has been excellent.

[erwinrafael]

Actually, I get defensive with the negative comments about MM's drumming is when the descriptions used are lackluster, does not know how to play the cymbals, etc. which I think is a bit too much for somebody who nailed ACOS, TTT and HK except the hi-hats.

[Adami]

Actually, I get defensive with the negative comments about MM's drumming is when the descriptions used are lackluster, does not know how to play the cymbals, etc. which I think is a bit too much for somebody who nailed ACOS, TTT and HK except the hi-hats.

How about this, I don't enjoy or appreciate his artistic decisions in those situations.

That cool?

[SeRoX]

From Milan;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLI4fREpMGc

I think this one is absolutely great.

[erciccio]

A few comments on my side, haveing seen them both in Rome (second night) and Padova.

Both performances were absoultey amazing, on all perspectives.

Audio quality was better in Padova (too loud in Rome), but in Rome there was much more energy from the crowd (e.g. many people standing for the last songs..)

I think they decided to skip ALLB and TSCO just because the show was too long...in Rome in was almost 3h and 30, and it was definitely too much for them and also slightly "boring" also for the crows. Bots songs were loved by the crowd, there was a could dancing during TSCO all around the venue!!

James performance was great both nights, he only struggles a lot in TTT during the "if there's a pensive fear" section..and he still has to find a "back-up" solution for that. All the rest, he nailed down perfectly!
(the complains are maybe for the 1st roman performance, I was not there)

MM was great, and the drum solo is just amazing..(that single handed roll while he hi-hats with the other hand...!!)

I will probably see them again in May!

[gzarruk]

A few comments on my side, haveing seen them both in Rome (second night) and Padova.

Both performances were absoultey amazing, on all perspectives.

Audio quality was better in Padova (too loud in Rome), but in Rome there was much more energy from the crowd (e.g. many people standing for the last songs..)

I think they decided to skip ALLB and TSCO just because the show was too long...in Rome in was almost 3h and 30, and it was definitely too much for them and also slightly "boring" also for the crows. Bots songs were loved by the crowd, there was a could dancing during TSCO all around the venue!!

James performance was great both nights, he only struggles a lot in TTT during the "if there's a pensive fear" section..and he still has to find a "back-up" solution for that. All the rest, he nailed down perfectly!
(the complains are maybe for the 1st roman performance, I was not there)

MM was great, and the drum solo is just amazing..(that single handed roll while he hi-hats with the other hand...!!)

I will probably see them again in May!

That's great to hear! So cool you could make it to two shows. 

About ALLB and TSCO not being in the set anymore, I think is the same reason as you say, the show was way too long with the extra solos, improvs and all that stuff. I kinda wish they replaced AIA with These Walls or Panic Attack, though, but I don't see that happening for this leg of the tour, as JP would need a baritone guitar for either one and I doubt he took one with him for these shows.

[erwinrafael]

Actually, I get defensive with the negative comments about MM's drumming is when the descriptions used are lackluster, does not know how to play the cymbals, etc. which I think is a bit too much for somebody who nailed ACOS, TTT and HK except the hi-hats.

How about this, I don't enjoy or appreciate his artistic decisions in those situations.

That cool?

No prob with that.

I think though that not playing the hi-hats is not really an artistic decision per se, because these songs are learned just recently. As some of the vids have shown, MM played the hi-hats in songs where he did not play the hi-hats much during the first tour he played those songs in (Another Day, Surrounded, As I Am). It could be more of just getting the basic muscle memory first.

[bosk1]

Oh, also, with definitely no rehearsals, either, since JP and JR spent the week previous to this tour at NAMM.

Not sure where you got that information, but it is totally false.  They booked a rehearsal studio and did rehearse the set before going out on tour.  Get your facts straight.

[erwinrafael]

Well, this is what MM said:

"Show #1 is done. I feel like everything hurts. I can't practice like this at home. Y'all drummers know the drill. So you know, we never rehearsed the show through. Welcome to my life. I hit my hair in the intro of Take the Time and miss hit."

So maybe what MM means is that they did not do a full show rehearsal that follows the sequence of songs?

[bosk1]

So maybe what MM means is that they did not do a full show rehearsal that follows the sequence of songs?

Probably.  I couldn't tell you specifically how they rehearsed.  I just know they booked the rehearsal hall.  But, yes, it would not surprise me if they did not do a full playthrough of the entire set in order and that that is what he is referring to.

[jsbru]

Well, this is what MM said:

"Show #1 is done. I feel like everything hurts. I can't practice like this at home. Y'all drummers know the drill. So you know, we never rehearsed the show through. Welcome to my life. I hit my hair in the intro of Take the Time and miss hit."

So maybe what MM means is that they did not do a full show rehearsal that follows the sequence of songs?

FWIW, that's where I got the information.

[bosk1]

Fair enough.  I didn't know he posted that, so I can see where people might have read that and inferred that they didn't rehearse at all. 

[jsbru]

And I can see where I ignored the word "through," so maybe they only rehearsed a select number of songs.  With the limited time they had, they could have skipped the TA songs, AIA, PMU, and TSCO because they were just playing them.  And maybe BAI because they've played that many times already.

It seems partially believable though, because I just re-watched the drum auditions video, and before even really knowing the guy, MM came and played the songs so perfectly that JP commented, "we literally could have played a show tonight and went on stage with him without rehearsing."  Now that he's been with the band for 6 years, they're probably even more comfortable with him.

[aprilethereal]

From Milan;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLI4fREpMGc

I think this one is absolutely great.

It really is, fantastic performance

[MirrorMask]

As cheesy as it was, seeing all the lights in the venue really did it for the atmosphere! 

[jakepriest]

I loved the little jams they did at the end of Take The Time and Learning To Live. A friend talked me into going to see them live today and it was totally worth it. Amazing performance by everyone (James did really well apart from a few flat moments). Also, seeing ACOS live finally made me appreciate the song. So there's that. 

I don't know if Mangini's drums are mic'd weirdly but sometimes I couldn't hear his hi-hats and cymbals at all unless he was going full power. HK and a few of the softer songs sounded really weird because of that.