- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, EIGHT YEARS On.

[svisser]

Hilarious how "DT fans" call this album "unlistenable" when the performance and production is on par with the best of their catalogue.

What they really mean is TOO MUCH PIANO NOT ENOUGH METAL = SHIT

For me, the problem is not that there are so many ballads, it's the story. I am a theatre nerd and I am well aware of what the music has to do at points to serve the story. The problem is that the story was bad and the lyrics were easily the worst on that album.

[TAC]

I don't know. I feel like some people take that shit way too seriously. Why is this story so bad, yet Scenes is so revered?

[Kotowboy]

It's corny in places but worse than "ITS A BLESSING NO-ONE DIED !!! BY THE GRACE OF GOD ABOVE EVERYONE SURVIVED HHHOOOAAARRGRGGHHHH" ??

Or

" LET ME INTRODUCE MY BROTHA DISTINGUISHED ACCENT...ALLTHE FINEST WINES...IMPROVE WITH AGE!!! "

or

" LIKE A RECURRING NIGHTMARE HAUNTING MY DREAMS!!! "



Yeah TAC i don't think Astonishing is supposed to be 100% po-faced serious.

[Kyo]

Though one would have to admit that "Then unexpectedly, I'm taken by surprise" was not JP's greatest moment as a lyricist.

[svisser]

It's corny in places but worse than "ITS A BLESSING NO-ONE DIED !!! BY THE GRACE OF GOD ABOVE EVERYONE SURVIVED HHHOOOAAARRGRGGHHHH" ??

Or

" LET ME INTRODUCE MY BROTHA DISTINGUISHED ACCENT...ALLTHE FINEST WINES...IMPROVE WITH AGE!!! "

or

" LIKE A RECURRING NIGHTMARE HAUNTING MY DREAMS!!! "



Yeah TAC i don't think Astonishing is supposed to be 100% po-faced serious.

But at least those were not 2 1/2 hours long.

Plus, you can pull way way more than a few lines out of the TA compared to The Count Of Tuscany or Nightmare.

[TAC]

It's totally cool if you (understood) don't dig The Astonishing.

[bosk1]

I'm not sure why anyone would have any problem with the lyrics discussed above (or any in The Astonishing).

[Ben_Jamin]

Hilarious how "DT fans" call this album "unlistenable" when the performance and production is on par with the best of their catalogue.

What they really mean is TOO MUCH PIANO NOT ENOUGH METAL = SHIT

For me, the problem is not that there are so many ballads, it's the story. I am a theatre nerd and I am well aware of what the music has to do at points to serve the story. The problem is that the story was bad and the lyrics were easily the worst on that album.

I would like to know why you think the story is bad?

The lyrics I can forgive because JP is not a poet, he is not a man good with words. But he can paint a picture and present a story with his lyrics.

Though one would have to admit that "Then unexpectedly, I'm taken by surprise" was not JP's greatest moment as a lyricist.

Remember, it's not JP speaking...It's Faythe. The lyrics that are on The Astonishing are not causal lyrics, they are dialogue. Those lyrics are exactly what I would hear a young female say, and it's also supposed to be her saying it to herself. We are getting a glimpse into Faythes thoughts.

Think of it like Wizard of Oz when they're in Oz getting freshened up and how those worker characters use the dialogue and word choice...like "pack that here. Pack that there, add a couple of brand new straw."


I was not expecting some grand ol opera type of musical structure or even thinking of it reaching those heights. Because JP is not one of these musical theater types. Doesn't mean he can't try and write one himself.

I would really, really, wish he could be able to work with a musical theater producer to come up with a musical of The Astonishing. Everything is there for it. It would only need minor tweaks and additions. But the hindrance is the music is quite complex as well.

[bosk1]

Though one would have to admit that "Then unexpectedly, I'm taken by surprise" was not JP's greatest moment as a lyricist.

Remember, it's not JP speaking...It's Faythe. The lyrics that are on The Astonishing are not causal lyrics, they are dialogue. Those lyrics are exactly what I would hear a young female say, and it's also supposed to be her saying it to herself. We are getting a glimpse into Faythes thoughts.

I believe that is Gabriel's line, actually.  But otherwise, your point still stands.

[Kotowboy]

Does anyone else get " You're The Voice " by John Farnham vibes from Our New World ?


I don't know why I do - but something about Our New World reminds me of that song.

[Dedalus]

The story is super cheesy (and reminds me a lot of the librettos of some operas, which are also super cheesy).

But we live in a world where Avengers and Star Wars are big hits. We can forgive JP for the extravagance.   

[Ben_Jamin]

Though one would have to admit that "Then unexpectedly, I'm taken by surprise" was not JP's greatest moment as a lyricist.

Remember, it's not JP speaking...It's Faythe. The lyrics that are on The Astonishing are not causal lyrics, they are dialogue. Those lyrics are exactly what I would hear a young female say, and it's also supposed to be her saying it to herself. We are getting a glimpse into Faythes thoughts.

I believe that is Gabriel's line, actually.  But otherwise, your point still stands.

You're completely right.

I still stand by that (Faythes internal dialogue gets an entire song), because he is speaking internally. Which is a moment in the scene, where if done in a musical, that would be a breaking the fourth wall moment of Gabriel singing to the audience. As he reveals his inner thoughts of his first reaction to seeing Faythe pop up from behind her father, where they lock eyes, and he continues on to perform his song, not only to The Royal Family, but specifically looking in Faythe's eyes as he performs. This is what Nefaryus notices when he is performing, he sees how Gabriels music is making Faythe infatuated with him. I could see Faythe standing there twirling her hair while he is performing his song, or looking how those girls look when seeing a pop star like David Bowie or Prince, or any one of those male singers that draw mostly all female crowds. 

I actually think Faythe is the main character of the album, and Gabriel is the supporting character. Because without Faythe there can be no peace (of mind).     

[erciccio]

After the disappointment of AVFTTOTW I've come back to Gabriel and Faythe's world...and I've realized how much I missed them!

It's such a great album, full of interesting melodies and ideas...and it's VERY PROG!

I know it's full of flaws and areas for improvements (I agree 99% with Bosk's analysis above), but - unlike the latest releases-, still it contains ALL of the elements I love of the band, including the "metal" side!

For example, I've just heard "The path that divides", and that riff...with the chorus as a "reinforcement"...wow...

I wish they will move again to these territories in the future, but my impression looking at the latest 2 album is that they were so shocked by the negative reactions that they will continue to sail in safe "metal" waters for some time...

[Kotowboy]

Not sure what's disappointing about A View From The Top... It's like a Best of Dream Theater on one album.

[ErHaO]

I still enjoy The Astonishing. Disc one is really great, disc two is less exciting to me. I still wish they would've gotten a female vocalist for all the female parts though (despite James doing a great job overall).

[bosk1]

I actually think Faythe is the main character of the album, and Gabriel is the supporting character.

Not sure if I ever mentioned this, but I remember talking to JP about the album, and I was geeking out over Savior in the Square.  I pointed out that I loved the double meaning in the title, about how Gabriel is the obvious "savior" because that is how people refer to him, but that that title is itself a double meaning because, in literary terms, Faythe becomes a "Christ figure" by dying and resurrecting, and in doing so, brings the two divided factions together.  John laughed and said, "Man, I really wish I had thought of something that cool, but that was actually not intended at all." 

[Ben_Jamin]

I actually think Faythe is the main character of the album, and Gabriel is the supporting character.

Not sure if I ever mentioned this, but I remember talking to JP about the album, and I was geeking out over Savior in the Square.  I pointed out that I loved the double meaning in the title, about how Gabriel is the obvious "savior" because that is how people refer to him, but that that title is itself a double meaning because, in literary terms, Faythe becomes a "Christ figure" by dying and resurrecting, and in doing so, brings the two divided factions together.  John laughed and said, "Man, I really wish I had thought of something that cool, but that was actually not intended at all." 

 

[gzarruk]

The only moment where the lyrics distract/annoy me in the album is the "my music player" section, and I wouldn't really say it's a problem with the lyrics themselves, but rather the execution of them.

[Trav]

The only moment where the lyrics distract/annoy me in the album is the "my music player" section, and I wouldn't really say it's a problem with the lyrics themselves, but rather the execution of them.

I laughed at this the first few times I heard it as well. But then I thought "what is she suppose to say? What else would she call it?" Maybe he could have figured a way around it but...I got past it.

[TAC]

Yeah,"my music player" is definitely goofy.

[Ben_Jamin]

What's goofy about "Music Player"?

This is the part where I imagine a Disney princess, like Ariel singing about her gadgets she collected. Which in that song is Ariels' character song and what she desires, in other terms her "Path That Divides" scenario.

The "Music Player" is how Faythe discovered the Gift of Music, which is why she became so infatuated with a man who can actually play the music that is similar to the songs she hears on her music player.

Also, what else is there to call the device that plays music?

[gzarruk]

That's why I said my problem is the execution. It's just sang in a pretty weird/goofy way

[Shooters1221]

Still LOVE this album from start to finish and listen to it that way. The only part I never liked was the crying in Losing Faythe. It just sounds like 2 bad actors fake crying to me, but everything else is superb.

[NoFred]

Considering IRL we've coalesced on "device" but yes may have been better to orient it albums or record player, even if it is an anachronism

[ThatOneGuy2112]

.

[ReaPsTA]

A big part of the reason this album doesn't do it for me is indeed the story. And I have no problem with cheesy corniness either. I like a lot of Ayreon's albums quite a bit. I watch shounen anime for fucks sake. But TA isn't corny in a way that even really entertains me. The bloated runtime doesn't really help things.

Because TA never knows if it wants to be corny on purpose or not. The Gift of Music and Lord Nafaryus are absurd and kind of fun to listen to. But they exist on the same album as Begin Again and My Last Farewell.

[Architeuthis]

Another really cool thing about this album is it's hard rock and heavy side.  Moment of Betrayal is a stand alone track that could be on a standard/traditional DT album. 

ONW, ANB, Chosen, and TGOM could all be on traditional type DT albums too.
ONW has a huge Journey vibe going on. 

[Lupton]

Considering IRL we've coalesced on "device" but yes may have been better to orient it albums or record player, even if it is an anachronism

Maybe so. But the lyrics for Yes's Revealing Science of God finally make more sense: "set for our strange device.."   

[oceanic156]

Years later, I still enjoy quite a lot about TA despite its flaws. Despite being the band's most ambitious music statement, it seems destined to be forgotten after being panned by so many fans. I agree with the criticisms regarding the plotline and lyrics - it's hard to feel great about, even in the context of a more tongue-in-cheek 'musical theater' approach. I'm surprised they didn't hire an outside writer for the lyrics here; it would have prevented some of the backlash I think.

But I enjoy TA for what it is, and musically it's some of their most impressive and expressive work. I'd still put it in the top half of their discography.

[geeeemo]

Years later, I still enjoy quite a lot about TA despite its flaws. Despite being the band's most ambitious music statement, it seems destined to be forgotten after being panned by so many fans. I agree with the criticisms regarding the plotline and lyrics - it's hard to feel great about, even in the context of a more tongue-in-cheek 'musical theater' approach. I'm surprised they didn't hire an outside writer for the lyrics here; it would have prevented some of the backlash I think.

But I enjoy TA for what it is, and musically it's some of their most impressive and expressive work. I'd still put it in the top half of their discography.

I agree with this.

[Ben_Jamin]

Years later, I still enjoy quite a lot about TA despite its flaws. Despite being the band's most ambitious music statement, it seems destined to be forgotten after being panned by so many fans. I agree with the criticisms regarding the plotline and lyrics - it's hard to feel great about, even in the context of a more tongue-in-cheek 'musical theater' approach. I'm surprised they didn't hire an outside writer for the lyrics here; it would have prevented some of the backlash I think.

But I enjoy TA for what it is, and musically it's some of their most impressive and expressive work. I'd still put it in the top half of their discography.

JP did hire a writer for the book. If he had enough funds, he could hire an outside producer for a musical production of the story. If there was a production person who was willing to start a crowdfunding campaign for such a thing, I'd donate for it.

Maybe he should've let JM help him with some more poetic lyrics to fill in for some spots.

[ReaPsTA]

Talking about whether JM or an outside writer should have helped with the lyrics I think misses the point.

1. Think about the story. Not much really happens. Rebel town in evil empire without music. One guy is good at music. Bad guys show up to take a look. Princess falls in love with guy. Runs away. Prince blackmails singer's brother. Singer's brother decides to betray then doesn't. Prince gets pissed, kills brother. Accidently almost kills his sister. Loses his hearing. Because lots of people don't want the princes to die, she doesn't. The King decides he's been a huge asshole and lets the village have freedom.

If you want to do a more romantic story about good and evil, then have some sweeping battles. I'd listen to a Dream Theater song about a village fighting for its freedom. Or do a political intrigue story with more three dimensional characters and more intrigue. Perhaps even merge those two things.

I think the more fundamental issue is that the more romantic good vs. evil story is about the power of good to inspire strength against evil, and the more complex political intrigue story is about how humanity is moved by power and self-interest. I think JP wanted to write something about how the power of love conquers all. Yes love can be a motivating factor but I don't know what that amounts to without the will to make the hard decisions because they're the right ones. Topics that JP has written good lyrics about.

2. The tone. This is the biggest thing about TA that doesn't work that I read everyone talk about without actually saying it. Some of the songs on TA are corny, some are straight forward drama, some are very serious. Some of the songs are from a rock opera, some are from musicals, some are from more straight forward prog metal concept albums. It's not that these things can't be blended but this album ends up containing a lot of tone whiplash.

An easy example of this is to just look at the first three songs (Dystopian Overture, The Gift of Music, The Answer). All three sound like they're from different albums. DO is a combination of rock opera and standard prog metal instrumental. It's not "super duper serious" but it takes itself seriously/sincerely and moves through various dramatic themes. The Gift of Music is more straight forward prog rock, but then has the cheesy (and great!) "My Brother Gabriel" section that sounds like something from a fun Broadway show. The Answer sounds more like typical prog rock/musical music, and the lyrics/tone are actually kind of depressing because they present a character who's so isolated from any traditional sense of humanity.

[Dream Team]

Listened to a lot of it last night for the first time in ages, and still love it. MM is sneaky fantastic on this.

[The Letter M]

This is my first time posting in this thread, and my first time looking at it since Jan 2017, but I think I am finally coming around to really like this album. I've been spinning Mangini-Era albums a lot lately since AVFTTOTW came out, but this one hasn't gotten as many, mostly due to its length, but the more I listen to it, the more I am really getting into it (finally).

-Marc.

[Dublagent66]

After the disappointment of AVFTTOTW I've come back to Gabriel and Faythe's world...and I've realized how much I missed them!

Funny, cause DOT & AVFTTOTW are reminders of my disappointment in TA, but at the same time they help me to move on in a positive way.