JLB's vocals in DT moving forward

[erwinrafael]

After doing my LaBrie sampler and seeing how many TA songs I put in there, I think that DT should ditch the 1990s soaring vocals after the Images, Words and Beyond tour and focus on exploiting the range of emotions and styles that JLB showed in TA for their future studio records. He's not getting any younger and he has so much more vocal arsenal other than hitting  high notes. Given how well he did Awake songs in the AFTR tour, maybe they can still do angry vocals. But I hope there would be less belting I&W style in the future.

[JiM-Xtreme]

I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.

[Adami]

Or get Matt Guilory in there to help write/produce vocal melodies. Dude knows Jame's range/strengths/weaknesses perfectly.

[King Postwhore]

Correct me if I'm wrong but since MP left James has done his vocals in Canada.  JP gives him latitude

[SeRoX]

True, in a certain limit James has his touch on vocal melodies but JP/JR duo write exact vocal melodies.

To OP discussion, I think I&W operatic/high register vocal style (which James still use on live) is like James' vocal performance signature. People expect him to hit high notes in both studio and live. The band seems to consider this fact.

[Stewie]

I've beaten this topic to death recently in other threads, so I won't rehash what I feel about it. I'll just say there are some very good points mentioned so far in this thread 

[pcs90]

I thought the vocals on TA were amazing.
I'm just honestly not a fan of him live. His voice almost always seems to sound a lot different (not talking about missing notes, I mean the tone quality of it.)
It'd definitely be better for the band to write less high vocal melodies for him though.

[gm5k]

Or get Matt Guilory in there to help write/produce vocal melodies. Dude knows Jame's range/strengths/weaknesses perfectly.

Actually a really interesting idea.  Would be really cool to see the stuff Matt, JP, JR, and JLB would come up with if they worked together on vocal melodies.

[CB]

I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.

I agree. I guess that for his solo albums he's writing the vocal melodies (at least most of them), and the results are (imo) very good.

[Serah Farron]

Yep, agreed!

James in The Astonishing was AWESOME! He portrayed each and every character well.

[Adami]

I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.

I agree. I guess that for his solo albums he's writing the vocal melodies (at least most of them), and the results are (imo) very good.

I have no idea about most of his albums since the writing credits aren't very clear, but on the last JLB album, he is only credited for co-writing 5 of the 12 songs. So at least 7 songs he had no input in. And of those, it's still likely that a good amount of the vocal melodies were written by Matt Guilory.

[Madman Shepherd]

I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.

I agree. I guess that for his solo albums he's writing the vocal melodies (at least most of them), and the results are (imo) very good.

I have no idea about most of his albums since the writing credits aren't very clear, but on the last JLB album, he is only credited for co-writing 5 of the 12 songs. So at least 7 songs he had no input in. And of those, it's still likely that a good amount of the vocal melodies were written by Matt Guilory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsJ2kO6GqRY

After the last one, James was really open about how Matt was the main songwriter.  Matt even posted on this forum (I think) and someone (maybe me) asked him about that and he said it was always that way.  There was a good Q&A for a while with him.  I wonder if someone can dig it up?

Anyway, he started posting some of the original demos with him on vocals so you can see how complete the song was before James got involved which for a lot of songs was something like 98%.

[erwinrafael]

I thought the vocals on TA were amazing.
I'm just honestly not a fan of him live. His voice almost always seems to sound a lot different (not talking about missing notes, I mean the tone quality of it.)

So he's like the Jon Bon Jovi of prog. 

[CB]

I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.

I agree. I guess that for his solo albums he's writing the vocal melodies (at least most of them), and the results are (imo) very good.

I have no idea about most of his albums since the writing credits aren't very clear, but on the last JLB album, he is only credited for co-writing 5 of the 12 songs. So at least 7 songs he had no input in. And of those, it's still likely that a good amount of the vocal melodies were written by Matt Guilory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsJ2kO6GqRY

After the last one, James was really open about how Matt was the main songwriter.  Matt even posted on this forum (I think) and someone (maybe me) asked him about that and he said it was always that way.  There was a good Q&A for a while with him.  I wonder if someone can dig it up?

Anyway, he started posting some of the original demos with him on vocals so you can see how complete the song was before James got involved which for a lot of songs was something like 98%.

Matt postet on this forum? I'd love to read that!
I know that Impermanent Resonance was more Matts than JLBs work (JLB said in an interview that though he had influence Matt was the main composer) but I also remember from older interviews that they collaborated 50/50, Matt sending recorded music to JLB and JLB sending vocal melodies back.
Anyway, with a composer like Matt who is able to write perfect vocal lines for JLBs voice, JLB probably doesn't need to change melodies. In DT it would help to give him more influence, he knows his voice better than JP and JR. To me it seems they are so focused on composing for their instruments that they sometimes neglect the vocals a bit.

[gzarruk]

I think the idea of having Matt Guillory's input on vocal melodies for the next DT albums is great! I just don't see the DT guys being too open about external influence on their music at this point, sadly. It's the same case as with having external producer, guests, etc.

Not saying that's bad at all, seems like they want to stay true to themselves and write albums thar are 100% DT, and I like that way of thinking. However, having some extra input here and there on certain aspects can actually benefit them a lot if done right, and Matt's work would definitely help the vocal melodies a lot.

On a side note, since we're talking about JLB's vocals in DT for the future, do you see James staying in the band untill they decide to stop or do you think he'll eventually leave to focus more on other aspects of his career and, most importantly, give his voice a well deserved break after years and years of heavy touring?

Now, please don't misunderstand what I just said, by no means I'm saying he should leave, be replaced or anything like that. I'm just curious to see what some of you think about this. Someone else posted, on the MM interview thread, I think, that he doesn't see Jordan staying with DT untill the end, mainly because of his age compared to the other guys, and I think that's likely to happen in a few years. So, could the same happen to James?

[Madman Shepherd]

I think the idea of having Matt Guillory's input on vocal melodies for the next DT albums is great! I just don't see the DT guys being too open about external influence on their music at this point, sadly. It's the same case as with having external producer, guests, etc.

Not saying that's bad at all, seems like they want to stay true to themselves and write albums thar are 100% DT, and I like that way of thinking. However, having some extra input here and there on certain aspects can actually benefit them a lot if done right, and Matt's work would definitely help the vocal melodies a lot.

On a side note, since we're talking about JLB's vocals in DT for the future, do you see James staying in the band untill they decide to stop or do you think he'll eventually leave to focus more on other aspects of his career and, most importantly, give his voice a well deserved break after years and years of heavy touring?

Now, please don't misunderstand what I just said, by no means I'm saying he should leave, be replaced or anything like that. I'm just curious to see what some of you think about this. Someone else posted, on the MM interview thread, I think, that he doesn't see Jordan staying with DT untill the end, mainly because of his age compared to the other guys, and I think that's likely to happen in a few years. So, could the same happen to James?

James is definitely in it until the end.  Don't forget, this isn't a band that sells a million albums and has more money than they know what to do with.  I think they know they are lucky to live this comfortably.  I think James and Mike probably make the least from publishing but still have a low six figure salary.  Not chump change but not like they can afford to quit.  Hopefully they have good retirement plans. 

I think JR and JP make the most but even they still aren't in the 1%. Despite various speculations, I think this is the lineup that sees DT into their twilight but even that probably won't be for another 10 years with maybe 3 more albums. 

[gzarruk]

I think the idea of having Matt Guillory's input on vocal melodies for the next DT albums is great! I just don't see the DT guys being too open about external influence on their music at this point, sadly. It's the same case as with having external producer, guests, etc.

Not saying that's bad at all, seems like they want to stay true to themselves and write albums thar are 100% DT, and I like that way of thinking. However, having some extra input here and there on certain aspects can actually benefit them a lot if done right, and Matt's work would definitely help the vocal melodies a lot.

On a side note, since we're talking about JLB's vocals in DT for the future, do you see James staying in the band untill they decide to stop or do you think he'll eventually leave to focus more on other aspects of his career and, most importantly, give his voice a well deserved break after years and years of heavy touring?

Now, please don't misunderstand what I just said, by no means I'm saying he should leave, be replaced or anything like that. I'm just curious to see what some of you think about this. Someone else posted, on the MM interview thread, I think, that he doesn't see Jordan staying with DT untill the end, mainly because of his age compared to the other guys, and I think that's likely to happen in a few years. So, could the same happen to James?

James is definitely in it until the end.  Don't forget, this isn't a band that sells a million albums and has more money than they know what to do with.  I think they know they are lucky to live this comfortably.  I think James and Mike probably make the least from publishing but still have a low six figure salary.  Not chump change but not like they can afford to quit.  Hopefully they have good retirement plans. 

I think JR and JP make the most but even they still aren't in the 1%. Despite various speculations, I think this is the lineup that sees DT into their twilight but even that probably won't be for another 10 years with maybe 3 more albums.

Really hope that's the case with James! And, like others said here, hope they start taking his voice into more consideration while on such long tours.

About this being the last lineup, it could be, but I still think JR would be the first one to retire, since he will be in his mid to late 60's after a couple more album/tour cycles. That's complete speculation, btw, but that's what I think is likely to happen 

[Madman Shepherd]

Yes, but while playing keyboards is physically demanding, it's not so much so that a person in their 60s can't do it. 

I don't want to start the speculation again but I think the only one that would really consider quitting would be Mangini and even I don't think he would quit. 

I also don't think JP would really want to try to find a new keyboardist or vocalist or drummer so if any of them had issues in five years with the amount of touring, I'm sure he would probably looks at scaling back touring.  I think starting about 10-15 years ago they started making GOOD money and have been smart about it.  So another 5-10 years and they can really afford to take a year or two break and start looking at how they want to wrap thing up or maybe just tour every other year.

[Stewie]

While there are undoubtedly many vocalists who could rise to the challenge, I've personally always felt that James is the least replaceable member. I know many disagree with this, and that's okay. He's just been in the band since as far back as it counts, and his voice is so one-of-a-kind. The human voice is such a unique, personal thing, down to the smallest little nuance. Having different instrumentalists swapped out can certainly affect the songwriting, stylistically, sure - but a different human voice over the music...that's like changing the human element that you identify with for another. I can't really imagine any other vocalist singing DT and it sounding "right". Obviously many out there could pull it off and sound technically great, but it just wouldn't translate the same. I suppose it's similar to how some fans (presumably drummers) feel about MP's departure, and MM taking his place. Anyway, I genuinely hope James is in it until the end. I just love the sound of his voice; he's definitely one of my all-time favorite vocalists. Plus, in more ways than one, the band really owes a lot to him. Had he not come along at the right time the way he did, who knows what would've happened. His joining the band certainly gave them the launch they needed.

[MirrorMask]

Basically all that Stewie said.

JLB is such an integral and unique part of DT's music that no other singer, whle technically skilled to belt out the tunes, would "sound DT". Kinda like when Ripper replaced Halford in Judas Priest - he could scream like a banshee but Halford has been there since 1973 until 1993 and no way it would have sounded right with anybody else, even though Ripper was impressive live.

"Plus, in more ways than one, the band really owes a lot to him. Had he not come along at the right time the way he did, who knows what would've happened."

Isn't MP on record stating that the band was about to give up the search for the singer and go on as an instrumental act? which would have doomed them in the long run, no way they would have been half this famous after 30 years.

About the original question, I hope in future recordings they'll find the right balance between knowing each other's limits, while not turning all the songs into low-key stuff. The vast range of emotions conveyed by James' voice have to be there, just like they were on The Astonishing where he did a wonderful job.

[DreamerTV]

I remember Marco Sfogli commenting on fb about JLB contribution on solo albums being just his name on it.

[Stewie]

Isn't MP on record stating that the band was about to give up the search for the singer and go on as an instrumental act? which would have doomed them in the long run, no way they would have been half this famous after 30 years.

Something along those lines, I believe. I thought they were basically about to call it quits, but not sure. I know I read about it in the Lifting Shadows book, but it's been a few years so I'm a little fuzzy on the exact details.

[TAC]

After doing my LaBrie sampler and seeing how many TA songs I put in there, I think that DT should ditch the 1990s soaring vocals after the Images, Words and Beyond tour and focus on exploiting the range of emotions and styles that JLB showed in TA for their future studio records. He's not getting any younger and he has so much more vocal arsenal other than hitting  high notes. Given how well he did Awake songs in the AFTR tour, maybe they can still do angry vocals. But I hope there would be less belting I&W style in the future.

Huh.. I thought they used more of his range (re:higher end) on TA than they have in a long time. I've always maintained that James has been severely underutilized vocally for a long time. This is one of the reasons I like TA so much. James has sung albums like SC and BC&SL perfectly, but they didn't ask him to do very much.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

After doing my LaBrie sampler and seeing how many TA songs I put in there, I think that DT should ditch the 1990s soaring vocals after the Images, Words and Beyond tour and focus on exploiting the range of emotions and styles that JLB showed in TA for their future studio records. He's not getting any younger and he has so much more vocal arsenal other than hitting  high notes. Given how well he did Awake songs in the AFTR tour, maybe they can still do angry vocals. But I hope there would be less belting I&W style in the future.

I think that has been their approach for the past few albums. I think the only 'incredibly high' moment recorded by LaBrie recently has been Illumination Theory. Both JP and LaBrie are probably very aware of his age, his capabilities and his limitations.

[SeRoX]

I belive everyone in the band takes their limits into the consideration. I can't imagine conversation like this taking place while making albums: "hey James we know you can't pull this shit live due to your age but hey let's do it in the studio."

[CB]

I remember Marco Sfogli commenting on fb about JLB contribution on solo albums being just his name on it.

Well, writing lyrics for 6 songs on Static Impulse is hardly "just his name on it" ...

[CB]

I belive everyone in the band takes their limits into the consideration. I can't imagine conversation like this taking place while making albums: "hey James we know you can't pull this shit live due to your age but hey let's do it in the studio."

About conversations ...during the writing process for ADTOE is was like this (quote from JP from the tour book):
"Enter James ... determined to be an important part of the writing process, earnestly listening through headphones, eyes closed, rockin' out to the music all while belting out melodies, some of which would later become vocal parts or lines to be crafted into guitar passages or weaved into chord movements. I can only imagine what it must be like to be the vocalist in this band. It's nearly impossible to get a word in edgewise with all the notes and riffs flying around the room!"

[Madman Shepherd]

I belive everyone in the band takes their limits into the consideration. I can't imagine conversation like this taking place while making albums: "hey James we know you can't pull this shit live due to your age but hey let's do it in the studio."

About conversations ...during the writing process for ADTOE is was like this (quote from JP from the tour book):
"Enter James ... determined to be an important part of the writing process, earnestly listening through headphones, eyes closed, rockin' out to the music all while belting out melodies, some of which would later become vocal parts or lines to be crafted into guitar passages or weaved into chord movements. I can only imagine what it must be like to be the vocalist in this band. It's nearly impossible to get a word in edgewise with all the notes and riffs flying around the room!"

I think that is the most detailed comment about James's actual role in the writing process and I was never aware of it.  I never have read one of their tour books.  I guess I never figured they were worth much but that quote alone says more than I've read about LaBrie's input in the 5+ years since ADTOE's release than any other interview or book. 

Interesting!  Thanks for sharing.

[noxon]

I don't want DT to limit their musical output to just what they can do live. While i do agree that live performances is an integral part to how music can and should be experienced, i dont want the albums to suffer from a "lowest common denominator" effect. The studio albums are what live on for eternity for most listeners (yes, yes, i'm aware some people really like live albums - but they are strictly speaking not entirely live either).

I mean, it's not like JP is sticking to only stuff that he can recreate perfectly live - he's double-tracking guitars all the time, and playing backing guitar during guitar solos (i mean, JP is good, but he's not THAT good that he's able to shred and riff at the same time .

If James sounds good in studio, let them create music that sounds good, rather than limiting their output based on whether james can reliably perform it perfectly.

[erwinrafael]

Huh.. I thought they used more of his range (re:higher end) on TA than they have in a long time. I've always maintained that James has been severely underutilized vocally for a long time. This is one of the reasons I like TA so much. James has sung albums like SC and BC&SL perfectly, but they didn't ask him to do very much.

They did, but they were very well spaced and the use of the high range is mixed with a variety of vocal styles in just one song.

Example is A New Beginning. There is catchy poppy vocal melody, then there are well timed climactic high notes, there are aggressive raspy vocals, and a soft section. And then there's my favorite vocal line from James in the album: "you're the one who's blind"

If James sounds good in studio, let them create music that sounds good, rather than limiting their output based on whether james can reliably perform it perfectly.

For me, my original post was not really about whether James can pull the vocals off live or not. It's more of TA actually how much more vocal arsenal James has that maybe it's time they explore more rather than the belting that has been the staple vocal highlight.

[Stewie]

I don't want DT to limit their musical output to just what they can do live. While i do agree that live performances is an integral part to how music can and should be experienced, i dont want the albums to suffer from a "lowest common denominator" effect. The studio albums are what live on for eternity for most listeners (yes, yes, i'm aware some people really like live albums - but they are strictly speaking not entirely live either).

I mean, it's not like JP is sticking to only stuff that he can recreate perfectly live - he's double-tracking guitars all the time, and playing backing guitar during guitar solos (i mean, JP is good, but he's not THAT good that he's able to shred and riff at the same time .

If James sounds good in studio, let them create music that sounds good, rather than limiting their output based on whether james can reliably perform it perfectly.

Hmmm, I guess I hadn't really considered it from that angle. That's actually a really good point! Lately I've been thinking about JLB's vocals moving forward, and how they should write things that he can "guaranteed sing live", that suit his current range...but then when you mentioned JP, and the lowest common denominator thing, it kinda does make sense.

In other words, don't limit your creative artistic vision, or water it down, just because there's a chance you may not be able to recreate it 100% accurately live, right? Is that what you mean? Petrucci has written some wildly over the top guitar solos on recent albums, some of which he slightly slips up on live, but I guess that hasn't kept him from pushing the bar even higher with his soloing on the next album.

[gzarruk]

I don't want DT to limit their musical output to just what they can do live. While i do agree that live performances is an integral part to how music can and should be experienced, i dont want the albums to suffer from a "lowest common denominator" effect. The studio albums are what live on for eternity for most listeners (yes, yes, i'm aware some people really like live albums - but they are strictly speaking not entirely live either).

I mean, it's not like JP is sticking to only stuff that he can recreate perfectly live - he's double-tracking guitars all the time, and playing backing guitar during guitar solos (i mean, JP is good, but he's not THAT good that he's able to shred and riff at the same time .

If James sounds good in studio, let them create music that sounds good, rather than limiting their output based on whether james can reliably perform it perfectly.

Hmmm, I guess I hadn't really considered it from that angle. That's actually a really good point! Lately I've been thinking about JLB's vocals moving forward, and how they should write things that he can "guaranteed sing live", that suit his current range...but then when you mentioned JP, and the lowest common denominator thing, it kinda does make sense.

In other words, don't limit your creative artistic vision, or water it down, just because there's a chance you may not be able to recreate it 100% accurately live, right? Is that what you mean? Petrucci has written some wildly over the top guitar solos on recent albums, some of which he slightly slips up on live, but I guess that hasn't kept him from pushing the bar even higher with his soloing on the next album.

I agree with both! I think they sould continue to push themselves at the studio, since that's the poing of a studio album, but be very aware of their limitations live. If we talk about James's vocals, they could down tune some of the stuff so he's able to sing the songs they way they were written, but without hurting his voice (or sounding terrible) doing that

[Dream Team]

Another thing, not every song HAS to be played live. There are such things as "album tracks".

[Samsara]

I think the best solution would be to allow JLB to write all his own vocal melodies (assuming this is something he would want), so he could sing whatever is comfortable for him, and apply whatever style feels most natural and fitting for the music.

This. James should be much more involved in crafting the vocals of DT than I think he is. It seems to me DT has always had the songwriter tell JLB what to do, instead of involving JLB more directly, and that, to me, is a problem. I don't know what goes on in the band, but if it is JLB's CHOICE not to be involved, that would be a bummer. But if it is not his choice, and JP (and back in the day, MP as well) writes the vocal melodies for James, that is a mistake (and what I assume is usually the case).

That's not to say that some songs aren't awesome. Of course they are. But I've always believed that a singer should be very involved with the songwriters in crafting appropriate vocal melodies. In Queensryche, that's one of the things that made the original lineup special. DeGarmo would work WITH Tate to find the best vocal melodies for their songs. Once Chris left, one of the glaring problems of QR were not as good vocal melodies. This is an opposite example to DT, but it shows that vocal melodies need to be an effort of both the singer AND songwriter, IMO.

[Stewie]

This. James should be much more involved in crafting the vocals of DT than I think he is. It seems to me DT has always had the songwriter tell JLB what to do, instead of involving JLB more directly, and that, to me, is a problem. I don't know what goes on in the band, but if it is JLB's CHOICE not to be involved, that would be a bummer. But if it is not his choice, and JP (and back in the day, MP as well) writes the vocal melodies for James, that is a mistake (and what I assume is usually the case).

That's not to say that some songs aren't awesome. Of course they are. But I've always believed that a singer should be very involved with the songwriters in crafting appropriate vocal melodies. In Queensryche, that's one of the things that made the original lineup special. DeGarmo would work WITH Tate to find the best vocal melodies for their songs. Once Chris left, one of the glaring problems of QR were not as good vocal melodies. This is an opposite example to DT, but it shows that vocal melodies need to be an effort of both the singer AND songwriter, IMO.

I definitely agree with all of this, as well. Vocalists should always oversee the development of the vocal melodies, as they are the ones who will be singing them live.