DT to play the whole I&W in full next year!

[rumborak]

There's also the danger of being perceived as a nostalgia act by the general public when you start touring for an old album of yours and charge exorbitant prices.

As long as a band continues to release new music that nostalgic tours are ok.  When you don't come out with music in 10 years and still tour, that's when it feels nostalgic.

For the most part I agree, but as a counterexample I would bring up Extreme. Saw them for the Pornograffitti tour this year, and while Sausades exists, and they played songs from it, I would still label the whole tour a nostalgia tour.

For me it's actually mostly about the money you charge. By charging large amounts of money you consciously focus on affluent (read: older) fans who grew up with the album. It moves the focus away from gaining new fans.

Again, not necessarily saying DT is at that stage. Then again it's hard to put yourself into the mind of a general metal fan who is only peripherally aware of DT. For them a tour like that might mean something different than to us.

[King Postwhore]

I get the money part.  I shy away from those shows.  But as an example if Extreme comes out with a new album, I'm ok with these "anniversary" tours.  I choose for the most part, to skip them

[mikeyd23]

Yeah, one tour celebrating an anniversary of your most popular album doesn't make you a nostalgia act, especially when all your other touring still is mainly in support of a new album with new music.

[Jinx]

Sorry to go back to the opener discussion...

What I would like to know is whether this song is from a MM era album or not?

[theinuu]

I would guess that the opener will be These Walls. It has been played in the MM-era, it is a crowd pleaser and and it has been never used as an opener (I guess?). IMHO, the intro of the song fits as a show opener but the song itself as an opener is not an obvious choice.

[Stewie]

I'm really not sure how they expect James to possibly pull this off... No disrespect intended, but they need to seriously take his vocal limitations into account moving forward. As much as I love The Astonishing, when I saw them on this tour he was straining and struggling the whole way thru the show. It was painful. After the show I asked my girlfriend what she thought, and she said "the instrumentalists were amazing, but I couldn't understand a single word from the singer". And it's true, because when he's straining THAT much to hit the notes, his pronunciation and articulation goes out the window; vocals basically get reduced to nonsensical wailing at that point.

I really like The Astonishing, but I feel like they didn't really take into account how hard it would be for him to pull off those parts night after night on tour. It's one thing to do it in the studio, where you can do as many takes as you need, but an entirely different ball game live. So...not sure how on earth they think James will be able to pull this I&W tour off. It'll probably end up sounding like Wacken...and we all know how terrible that was.

Speaking of which, that reminds me - why the hell would you open up a show with Afterlife and Metropolis?! Those are two of the hardest songs to sing live, and it makes absolutely zero sense to expect James to pull them off right out of the gate. If anything, they should've been at the end of the show, after he's been able to warm up nicely. Like how did they not think of that? Surely James would've looked at that and said yeah, that's not a good idea. I feel like overall the band has made some really bizarre decisions post MP, many of which make no sense to me. Anyway, I think they could re-arrange some of the parts to make them more suitable for his current range. I'd much rather hear a slightly altered arrangement that sounds in tune than the *original* that sounds painful, and is embarrassing and drags down the rest of the band. But hey, what do I know.

[Cyclopssss]

I'll see them in Amsterdam in april.

[AboutToCrash]

I'm really not sure how they expect James to possibly pull this off... No disrespect intended, but they need to seriously take his vocal limitations into account moving forward. As much as I love The Astonishing, when I saw them on this tour he was straining and struggling the whole way thru the show. It was painful. After the show I asked my girlfriend what she thought, and she said "the instrumentalists were amazing, but I couldn't understand a single word from the singer". And it's true, because when he's straining THAT much to hit the notes, his pronunciation and articulation goes out the window; vocals basically get reduced to nonsensical wailing at that point.

I really like The Astonishing, but I feel like they didn't really take into account how hard it would be for him to pull off those parts night after night on tour. It's one thing to do it in the studio, where you can do as many takes as you need, but an entirely different ball game live. So...not sure how on earth they think James will be able to pull this I&W tour off. It'll probably end up sounding like Wacken...and we all know how terrible that was.

Speaking of which, that reminds me - why the hell would you open up a show with Afterlife and Metropolis?! Those are two of the hardest songs to sing live, and it makes absolutely zero sense to expect James to pull them off right out of the gate. If anything, they should've been at the end of the show, after he's been able to warm up nicely. Like how did they not think of that? Surely James would've looked at that and said yeah, that's not a good idea. I feel like overall the band has made some really bizarre decisions post MP, many of which make no sense to me. Anyway, I think they could re-arrange some of the parts to make them more suitable for his current range. I'd much rather hear a slightly altered arrangement that sounds in tune than the *original* that sounds painful, and is embarrassing and drags down the rest of the band. But hey, what do I know.

Completely agree, I saw the Astonishing live on the first date only weeks after the release and he sung like he recorded the album 20 years prior, He was overall poor. Though the performance did get far better towards the end of the show, but I think when you hear his solo stuff he seems to be singing in his perfect range which is why he sounds so much better. I don't think JP takes his range into consideration much because since MP left I have noticed a lot of higher notes and melodies (In comparison to 8VM, SC and BC&SL). Melodies that he no doubt struggles to recreate live. It's a shame because out of almost any singer I know, I have never seen such a gulf in quality between studio and live performances... He sings things differently, He almost sounds like a different person. He gets good nights but overall I think him performing Images and Words in it's entirety the pitch it was originally created will not end well. I usually try and defend him as much as I can but he's been very poor live recently. I have no problem with his studio sound, In fact he is one of my favourite all time singers when it comes to the studio, But surely he and the rest of the band must realise how he sounds live? I have no issues with singers not being able to hit certain notes or make mistakes live but to sound like a totally different person is strange to say the least. It's bearable for long time DT fans because they are anticipating these types of performances before the show, but if you're taking a friend and trying to introduce them to the pioneers of the genre and they hear that, they must think what the earth is going on?

[Jinx]

Exactly the same as AboutToCrash, I saw them on that very first show in London and as soon as he struggled with Gift of Music I feared the worst with regards to the rest of the night. Alas, as the night went on he got into it (bar Moment of Betrayal which was a nightmare!).

As soon as this was announced I just kept thinking about how Another Day, Learning to Live and Take The Time will sound. James struggled back on that Chaos in Motion DVD with TTT so who knows what could happen.

As it is I'm taking a mate who has been very skeptical of the band referring to the as a poor Pink Floyd tribute. Hopefully James doesnt let me down! (My friend changed his tune a bit after seeing Mike Mangini on LALP actually - fancies himself a bit of a drummer)

[Evai]

Speaking of which, that reminds me - why the hell would you open up a show with Afterlife and Metropolis?! Those are two of the hardest songs to sing live, and it makes absolutely zero sense to expect James to pull them off right out of the gate.

Well, the setlist was another one of those chronological ones they like to do.. Gotta tell the history of the band, who cares about the singing quality!

[Anguyen92]

^^ The singing quality is the one of the more vital aspects of a live show.  A poor singing performance can really affect people's enjoyment of the show, even if the music playing is strong.  I get telling the history of the band, but maybe they could have made better choices that can accommodate JLB's current voice and how it would hold in a two month tour.

[Stewie]

Exactly - the singing can really make it or break it. I can't tell you how many times I've introduced a friend to DT, they start to really get into the studio albums, but the minute they hear some of his live singing, they're done. It really drags down the rest of the band, badly. Which is a shame, because for long-time fans, we know he can sing and has the potential to sound awesome. What he's going thru is due to nothing more than simple aging. It's just life. He's not any less talented - I just think they need to start taking his current singing limitations into account, and be smarter about it. They need to be realistic...when a band gets older, I prefer them to embrace their age and own it, than try to pretend like they can still pull out all the stops from their youthful days.

And, as far as the Wacken setlist being chronological - there was really no need for that, whatsoever. They already did that on the 8V tour, and it really didn't make sense to do it again on a festival tour. They weren't celebrating anything in particular, so for that reason especially, it made zero sense. Those songs should've been at the end of the set, greatly increasing his chances to do them justice.

[?]

I'm pretty sure Evai was being sarcastic.

But yeah, I thought playing those songs in the chronological order wasn't a great idea - not just because of James' voice, but the pacing as well. Metropolis as the second song and Behind the Veil as the closer? Come on!

[Cyclopssss]

Well then they need to adjust their writing to Jame's abilities. Come on, it's not rocket science. Fates did it. It's the smart thing to do. He just can't get up there anymore, then adjust the parts.

[rumborak]

The problem is, there's a LOT of fans out there who equate good singing with F#s and G5s.

[Kotowboy]

The problem is, there's a LOT of fans out there who equate good singing with F#s and G5s.

And people who think a solo is only any good if it's super fast and complex.

[rumborak]

I hope they drop the no-camera thing again. I wouldn't mind seeing some videos of shows. If they really don't release any DVD of TA, that tour may become the Forgotten Tour.

[hefdaddy42]

I hope they drop the no-camera thing again. I wouldn't mind seeing some videos of shows.

I asked Maddi (JP's guitar tech) about that rule when I saw them earlier this month.  He said that rule will die with the end of The Astonishing, cameras will be allowed again (unless any particular venue has an issue with them).

[cramx3]

I hope they drop the no-camera thing again. I wouldn't mind seeing some videos of shows.

I asked Maddi (JP's guitar tech) about that rule when I saw them earlier this month.  He said that rule will die with the end of The Astonishing, cameras will be allowed again (unless any particular venue has an issue with them).

While I didn't like the rule, it at least makes sense in a broadway theater sense of the way the show was presented... but let's get back to rock n roll concerts and ditch the rules. 

[julien_fr]

And, as far as the Wacken setlist being chronological - there was really no need for that, whatsoever. They already did that on the 8V tour, and it really didn't make sense to do it again on a festival tour. They weren't celebrating anything in particular, so for that reason especially, it made zero sense. Those songs should've been at the end of the set, greatly increasing his chances to do them justice.

That wasn't just a festival tour, they were celebrating their 30th anniversary.
The idea was to play one song per album they had released.
On festivals, the setlist was shortened ; but on bigger venues (= DT Show + Guests), they played the complete one-song-per-album setlist, in the chronological album release order.
I saw them in Arles, France, and we had that complete setlist. I saw them few days later in Barcelona at the Barcelona Rock Fest and they had dropped Caught in a Web, A Change of Seasons pt. II, About to Crash, and Wither.
Mostly because they had less time, obviously.

[Bertielee]

And, as far as the Wacken setlist being chronological - there was really no need for that, whatsoever. They already did that on the 8V tour, and it really didn't make sense to do it again on a festival tour. They weren't celebrating anything in particular, so for that reason especially, it made zero sense. Those songs should've been at the end of the set, greatly increasing his chances to do them justice.

That wasn't just a festival tour, they were celebrating their 30th anniversary.
The idea was to play one song per album they had released.
On festivals, the setlist was shortened ; but on bigger venues (= DT Show + Guests), they played the complete one-song-per-album setlist, in the chronological album release order.
I saw them in Arles, France, and we had that complete setlist. I saw them few days later in Barcelona at the Barcelona Rock Fest and they had dropped Caught in a Web, A Change of Seasons pt. II, About to Crash, and Wither.
Mostly because they had less time, obviously.

Hello, fellow French forumer. Enjoy your stay here!

B.Lee

[CB]

The problem is, there's a LOT of fans out there who equate good singing with F#s and G5s.

And people who think a solo is only any good if it's super fast and complex.

They confuse art with sport

And I will never understand why people think it's necessary for a male vocalist to sing in the soprano range... I actually prefer a more natural sound.

[Tony From Long Island]

I guess that depends on your definition of "natural."         

Males have been making a living singing high notes since the beginning of time.      See "Farinelli"   (but, of course, Farinelli was a castrato, so he was not "natural").


Also, I am not aware of anything in the Dream Theater catalog that would be considered "Soprano"  sung by a male.  Ya might wanna do  a bit of research on what a soprano is.     Very little of what JLB sings is in falsetto.   Just my opinion, but what do I know . . .

[Tony From Long Island]

The problem is, there's a LOT of fans out there who equate good singing with F#s and G5s.

And people who think a solo is only any good if it's super fast and complex.

As the Late Great Peppi Marchello said:   "Speed Ain't Nothing Without Class"

[rumborak]

But, as Fat Mr Crab and Uli Rottweiler used to say on dt.net, "speed = emotion". So, who are we to believe?

[CB]

I guess that depends on your definition of "natural."         

Males have been making a living singing high notes since the beginning of time.      See "Farinelli"   (but, of course, Farinelli was a castrato, so he was not "natural").


Also, I am not aware of anything in the Dream Theater catalog that would be considered "Soprano"  sung by a male.  Ya might wanna do  a bit of research on what a soprano is.     Very little of what JLB sings is in falsetto.   Just my opinion, but what do I know . . .

I have to clarify. I wasn't talking about JLB singing falsetto (and if he does it fits the part of the song). I was talking about (Prog)Metal singers and high notes in general. What I meant is that I don't see the necessity for male vocalists to sing notes in the soprano RANGE (referring to the F#s and G5s). Opera tenors don't have to do that. Extremely high notes are so important for metal fans that some actually propose bands should change their singer every 10 years ...  of course it's just my personal taste, but I don't think notes in the stratosphere make a song better, but they lead to trouble when the singer gets older and the natural drop of range happens.
I didn't mean DT/JLB sound unnatural, it's just that in some songs (not DTs) very high vocal parts just don't sound good in my ears. I know nobody will agree but Queen of the Reich is one of them, in the high parts the voice is just too piercing and thin for me, and I like GTs voice a lot when he's singing in a tenor range.

[Stewie]

I hope they drop the no-camera thing again. I wouldn't mind seeing some videos of shows.

I asked Maddi (JP's guitar tech) about that rule when I saw them earlier this month.  He said that rule will die with the end of The Astonishing, cameras will be allowed again (unless any particular venue has an issue with them).

Hmm...interesting. That almost makes me wonder if they made that rule specifically because of how horrible JLB sounds on this tour? I find it crazy to think that such an incredibly talented bunch of musicians would be oblivious to it. Or perhaps JLB himself requested this, out of sheer embarrassment? Seems reasonable to me, but who knows.

[KevShmev]

  That almost makes me wonder if they made that rule specifically because of how horrible JLB sounds on this tour? I find it crazy to think that such an incredibly talented bunch of musicians would be oblivious to it. Or perhaps JLB himself requested this, out of sheer embarrassment? Seems reasonable to me, but who knows.

This is a joke, right?

And an extremely poor one, at that.

[Stewie]

  That almost makes me wonder if they made that rule specifically because of how horrible JLB sounds on this tour? I find it crazy to think that such an incredibly talented bunch of musicians would be oblivious to it. Or perhaps JLB himself requested this, out of sheer embarrassment? Seems reasonable to me, but who knows.

This is a joke, right?

And an extremely poor one, at that.

Um, nope. Don't see why you think it's a "poor joke" just because you disagree. The fact of the matter is that he has had a very hard time singing this tour, and many others have noticed it as well. Seems logical that he would've at some point made that request. Apparently I've offended you, so...sorry.

[KevShmev]

  That almost makes me wonder if they made that rule specifically because of how horrible JLB sounds on this tour? I find it crazy to think that such an incredibly talented bunch of musicians would be oblivious to it. Or perhaps JLB himself requested this, out of sheer embarrassment? Seems reasonable to me, but who knows.

This is a joke, right?

And an extremely poor one, at that.

Um, nope. Don't see why you think it's a "poor joke" just because you disagree. The fact of the matter is that he has had a very hard time singing this tour, and many others have noticed it as well. Seems logical that he would've at some point made that request. Apparently I've offended you, so...sorry.

You have not offended me.  I was just chuckling at what I thought was a poor attempt at a joke, but oh wait, you were serious.

Okay, first...

Second, the band made this request before the tour started, so it's not like they decided on the fly, "Hey, our singer sounds awful; let's ban cameras!"

Third, JLB takes shit from some fans on every tour, some of which he deserves, because he can be very hit or miss live.  When I saw him, he was mostly fine, except for a handful of moments where he tried to overdo it (which I am not sure why he still does that).

Fourth, the I&W material will be much more difficult to sing than the TA stuff, so how would it make sense to allow cameras again, if that were the reason?

[Stewie]

  That almost makes me wonder if they made that rule specifically because of how horrible JLB sounds on this tour? I find it crazy to think that such an incredibly talented bunch of musicians would be oblivious to it. Or perhaps JLB himself requested this, out of sheer embarrassment? Seems reasonable to me, but who knows.

This is a joke, right?

And an extremely poor one, at that.

Um, nope. Don't see why you think it's a "poor joke" just because you disagree. The fact of the matter is that he has had a very hard time singing this tour, and many others have noticed it as well. Seems logical that he would've at some point made that request. Apparently I've offended you, so...sorry.

You have not offended me.  I was just chuckling at what I thought was a poor attempt at a joke, but oh wait, you were serious.

Okay, first...

Second, the band made this request before the tour started, so it's not like they decided on the fly, "Hey, our singer sounds awful; let's ban cameras!"

Third, JLB takes shit from some fans on every tour, some of which he deserves, because he can be very hit or miss live.  When I saw him, he was mostly fine, except for a handful of moments where he tried to overdo it (which I am not sure why he still does that).

Fourth, the I&W material will be much more difficult to sing than the TA stuff, so how would it make sense to allow cameras again, if that were the reason?

Eh, I don't know man. All those points you made can be easily dismissed. In response to your second point, they could've very feasibly anticipated that it would be very difficult for JLB to pull off live night after night, hence the "no video recording" rule. As for your third point, JLB has indeed taken criticism his whole career, however the difference in quality between studio recording and live presentation is arguably the most on this tour, and it seems reasonable that he would've made such a request, to at least limit it to the people who were actually there. Perhaps it's a stretch, but that's why I said in my original post - it almost makes me wonder. It's just a theory - I'm not saying this is the case. As per your fourth point, I don't know if I&W is actually harder to sing, but in the event that it is, you make a very solid point there.

[Adami]

It seems (based on what I've seen) that JLB sounds no real better or worse than other tours.

So picking this tour to do that crazy illogical thing you suggested is crazy illogical.

[Stewie]

It seems (based on what I've seen) that JLB sounds no real better or worse than other tours.

So picking this tour to do that crazy illogical thing you suggested is crazy illogical.

Really? From what little footage there is...he's reaaaally struggling bad. He's been straining really hard to hit the notes; basic pronunciation and articulation is completely absent, and often times it's hard to even make out what the lyrics are. Compared to footage from other tours, it is hands down the worst I've heard him in a long, long time. And the shows I've attended on this tour have been no different, so...don't know what else to tell you really.

[BlobVanDam]

Regardless of how good or bad he may be singing on the tour, the idea is ludicrous. As has been pointed out, this rule was in place from the start of the tour, not in response to live reception. If they thought he sounded that bad that they didn't want any evidence of it, banning cameras wouldn't make much difference. If they felt he sounded that bad, they wouldn't be delivering the show to audiences, because word of mouth still exists. There would be many more effective solutions to that problem.

[Prog Snob]

Especially considering there were plenty of audio bootlegs for the tour. The banning of video cameras was more to keep the display of the show a surprise, I'm assuming.